Trident makes apex the best controller?

[tiggs]

I think it would have to come down to exactly what each person is looking for, since both products (at this stage anyway) are very different. On one hand, you have the KH Director, which completely manages your alk, but does nothing for calcium or magnesium. On the other, you have the upcoming Trident, which doesn't manage anything yet, but will monitor all three parameters. I think it's safe to say that both products will eventually turn into devices with the same functionality, but for the time being, they chose different paths to release.

The other bit that comes down to preference is whether a hobbyist would prefer a quicker released product that had a couple issues and required some redesign or a product that's seen major delays. Again, different strokes for different folks. I understand GHL wanting to release their product first and it was great to see them fix the issues with the reagent lines and bottles so quickly. On the other hand, I understand Apex wanting to take their time, especially if it's not ready. At the end of the day, I don't think we'll know which product is better until a while down the road when both are out in the wild and both have full functionality.

 

[Mortie31]

I really don’t understand the need to be measuring Mg daily, levels change so slowly, Ca I can accept at a stretch but I only ever measure mine weekly at best as drift is so small, obviously Alk is a different ball game and I think a lot of SPS reefers will be measuring daily anyway. But the beauty of this hobby we all have different needs..

 

[VR28man]

I really don’t understand the need to be measuring Mg daily, levels change so slowly, Ca I can accept at a stretch but I only ever measure mine weekly at best as drift is so small, obviously Alk is a different ball game and I think a lot of SPS reefers will be measuring daily anyway. But the beauty of this hobby we all have different needs..

I don't have an apex, but am kind of leaning the same way as Mortie. Once I have a sumped tank in the (more distant now that I like) future, I was thinking about apex+trident. It would be nice, but only nice, and I'm not sure if it's worth the coin.

First, it seems to me that Trident is only useful if you dose the three (or four or whatever) part formula of your choice. You can watch things by trident and hand dose I suppose, but if you're doing this you probably want a doser. You can go ~$400 for a decent three pump doser and container, but it seems to me that if you have trident it doesn't make sense not to have the DOS. Since three part needs two sets of pumps, you're now out $500 (trident) and another $600 (DOS); maybe another $300 (DDR, though that might be a bit of a luxury.

Thus, all the stuff around trident will cost (new price) $1100-$1400; $1000 more than the basic dosing setup (not even counting the apex, which I've become less enamored with the more I think of it compared to cheaper, single item manufacturer automation systems from Coralvue, Ecotech, Kessil, etc.). Probably worth it for a large system, especially if you like expensive name corals. But for the average (40-80 gal, 3-4") aquarium, with maybe the occasional $50+ coral and the remainder in $15-50 livestock (maybe $400 in livestock total), with daily dosing requirements maybe measured from 1-20mL per additive, that's a heck of a difference.

 

[SuncrestReef]

Have to agree with this. I don't have the KHD yet (just don't have the growth to justify it) but I love my GHL stuff. I do miss Apex Fusion, but I don't miss the frequent reboots required.

I've had my Apex 2016 set up for 4 months now, and have never needed to reboot it. My setup also includes 7 Apex modules plus a COR-20, WAV, and 2 DOS units. All running flawlessly.

 

[roberthu526]

Anybody else a little disappointed about the end of the year part? It was originally scheduled for Q2.

Originally it was this year then pushed to Q2 then Q3 then who knows. To me it was a marketing strategy to push sales of the Apex 2016. They also pretty much claimed the market of auto testing territory by not even have a product. I gotta say it was a smart move but now I am quite disappointed. Neptune has really put profit in front of everything now.

 

[ZaneTer]

Trident doesn't make apex anything because Trident isn't even anywhere in sight....

 

[mitch91175]

Guess I'll chime in with my opinion (you know what they say about those, :cool:). I was in the same boat like everyone else here going to try to wait for the Trident to be released and just gave up on waiting (one of the best decisions I have made recently for my tank). I decided to purchase the Alkatronic (not cheap but worth it). I know someone with the KH Guardian and they hate it with a passion (lack of support). If you do not need to measure calcium/magnesium, the Alkatronic is the best unit available from already knowing about the KH Guardian and what I have read and experienced. Is it perfect, nope, but it is as close as your gonna get right now.

With dKH being soo critical with maintaining a successful reef, I didn't want to invest so much money in frags to just have everything not be successful. I added 65+ SPS frags and 55+ zoa colonies to my display when I changed everything around. Alkatronic made it a piece of cake to do and maintain. Loving the unit and would recommend it to anyone interested.

 

[mitch91175]

Thank you i just didnt know if trident had any runner ups or not apex is looking like my best bet.

Man, people and the freaking Trident. Nothing against Neptune Systems, but what is it with waiting for something that who knows when it will be released and there is a great product already on the market for maintaining Alkalinity (that ACTUALLY does maintain Alkalinity and not just measure it)?

You will be hard pressed to find a better current solution than what the Alkatronic has to offer. @JonasRoman did a phenomenal job on getting the unit designed and implemented. I'll tell you this much about calcium and magnesium, I only test once (max twice) a month for both and IF (big if) I need to top them off, I do so at that time. My process is pretty straight forward. Alkatronic helps keep dKH where I want it and I also dose kalk to help maintain calcium levels. Magnesium I correct when I test and if I need to correct calcium I do so at that time. Hasn't been any easier for me since getting the Alkatronic personally.

If you look at my review thread, you'll see that more people are jumping ship on the Trident and getting the Alkatronic and are happy that they did.

Don't get me wrong, but the Apex is a great controller and has it's set of issues like anything electronic does. Question you have to ask yourself is if you invested in stock, will you put 100% of your money into a single stock or would you spread that 100% amongst multiple stocks? Same goes for your aquarium equipment.

 

[ca1ore]

Meh, what's 'best' is entirely in the eye of the beholder. I use apex, and it's fine, but I worry about the single point of failure problem so I use it mainly as a monitoring device, not as a controller. Where I do use it to control, it is either for non critical activities or there is a separate, redundant facility. If folks want an alkalinity device that auto doses, go for it. Far too problematic in my view and I'm quite happy with something that alerts me if it 'thinks' something is out of bounds. Not sure how one would control a CaRx anyhow.

 

[Mortie31]

Meh, what's 'best' is entirely in the eye of the beholder. I use apex, and it's fine, but I worry about the single point of failure problem so I use it mainly as a monitoring device, not as a controller. Where I do use it to control, it is either for non critical activities or there is a separate, redundant facility. If folks want an alkalinity device that auto doses, go for it. Far too problematic in my view and I'm quite happy with something that alerts me if it 'thinks' something is out of bounds. Not sure how one would control a CaRx anyhow.

I’m with you on not auto dosing Alk, I have a GHL director, and it is very accurate and consistant, but I’m more than happy with it just measuring 4 times a day for me, my Alk is rock steady and doesn’t need constant adjustment, but I do want to know if anything goes wrong with a dosing pump.. hence the KHD.

 

[scott11106]

i automate everything i can and man does it make life with a 300g reef a breeze. once the trident comes out i will get it and auto dose from it with some occasional manual testing to ensure the levels. now all i need to do is figure out a way to automix salt and the game is a-foot sort to speak....

 

[mitch91175]

i automate everything i can and man does it make life with a 300g reef a breeze. once the trident comes out i will get it and auto dose from it with some occasional manual testing to ensure the levels. now all i need to do is figure out a way to automix salt and the game is a-foot sort to speak....

Just an FYI, the Trident doesn't do any dosing based on the information that is currently available, just measurements. You'll need to figure out a different approach.

 

[AquaLifeStudio]

I had the understanding that we really dont need to test for Calcium much anyways as Alk and Calcium are consumed, and dosed, in equal parts anyways. This is based on your water parameters being in close proximity to your saltmix and that you are dosing two-part solutions equally.

I'm sure I'll purchase a GHL KH director someday to replace my Hanna tester but I probably need to buy more coral first.

 

[scott11106]

Just an FYI, the Trident doesn't do any dosing based on the information that is currently available, just measurements. You'll need to figure out a different approach.

Yea we know that but due to the ability to do programming in apex you can dose with information from the trident.. there is a ton of automation and routines that can be programmed to assist in every day tank parameters and stability. when you have some time you should check out neptune systems community forum as for those that do not understand the existing abilities of the apex system would be pleasantly surprised. It will even be better as time goes on and they start to move into the solutions world and not just report/react , but much better than years ago when the dial timer and float valve were high tech..lol

 

[scott11106]

I had the understanding that we really dont need to test for Calcium much anyways as Alk and Calcium are consumed, and dosed, in equal parts anyways. This is based on your water parameters being in close proximity to your saltmix and that you are dosing two-part solutions equally.

I'm sure I'll purchase a GHL KH director someday to replace my Hanna tester but I probably need to buy more coral first.

i do a 3 gallon water change per day with red sea salt that has an abundant amount of replacement elements but i still have to dose 120mil of alk and cal daily to keep parameters in line and my tank is lightly stocked but very stable. i test alk and cal weekly and things change but that is mostly due to the fact that i continue to add coral and some fish.

 

[Cabinetman]

Hopefully we will have more info on the trident during macna. It is kind of frustrating that I went all in with apex anticipating the release of trident and now it seams to have stalled. I sure hope it don’t go like the mindstream monitor. I’m sure it can’t be that bad but I sure wish they’d get this done! I kinda wonder how much effect sourcing parts is playing in all this with the trade issues and import dilemma

 

[mitch91175]

Yea we know that but due to the ability to do programming in apex you can dose with information from the trident.. there is a ton of automation and routines that can be programmed to assist in every day tank parameters and stability. when you have some time you should check out neptune systems community forum as for those that do not understand the existing abilities of the apex system would be pleasantly surprised. It will even be better as time goes on and they start to move into the solutions world and not just report/react , but much better than years ago when the dial timer and float valve were high tech..lol

I personally am 1000% familiar with the custom programming of the Apex. I have had one on my tanks for over 10 years (in/out of the hobby time included). I know I personally wouldn't use the programming for dosing dKH, calcium or mag. I rather rely on other products for that personally. In my time using the Apex, I have experienced things that have made me come to the realization of mainly using my Apex for more monitoring than anything else (temp, pH, orp, salinity). Everyone has different experiences for sure, but mine has left me only wanting to use it for monitoring and knowing what's going on with my system. Also use it for reminders to do certain task for the system(s).

Until recently did I get heavy into SPS and when I finally decided to do so, I chose a product wisely based upon my experiences that I have had with everything thus far. Glad I did choose what I did since my now SPS dominate tank is very stable dosing calcium/magnesium isn't much of an issue when you know how much dKH your tank consumes.

 

[scott11106]

I personally am 1000% familiar with the custom programming of the Apex. I have had one on my tanks for over 10 years. I know I personally wouldn't use the programming for dosing dKH, calcium or mag. I rather rely on other products for that personally. In my time using the Apex, I have experienced things that have made me come to the realization of mainly using my Apex for more monitoring than anything else (temp, pH, orp, salinity). Everyone has different experiences for sure, but mine has left me only wanting to use it for monitoring and knowing what's going on with my system. Also use it for reminders to do certain task for the system(s).

oh, sorry to infer that you did not understand but your statement led me to believe you did not know, i auto dose alk, cal and mag and 4 part elements and it works great, however i manual test weekly at a minimum to make sure things are in order as automation and tech has its drawbacks and the major one is if there is a problem and you dont pay attention and just rely on the tech you can get burned.(i assume this is your point)

 

[mitch91175]

oh, sorry to infer that you did not understand but your statement led me to believe you did not know, i auto dose alk, cal and mag and 4 part elements and it works great, however i manual test weekly at a minimum to make sure things are in order as automation and tech has its drawbacks and the major one is if there is a problem and you dont pay attention and just rely on the tech you can get burned.(i assume this is your point)

Yeah definitely partially my point. Other point is I have had an issue where my entire Apex has freaked out on me due to a bad module. It definitely happens with everything electronic at some point, but for a single component to do what it did to my Apex has left a bad taste in my mouth about relying on it for anything other than monitoring. Even though I use the Alkatronic, I still check my dKH manually every once in a while. Also have gotten used to knowing when my SPS are happy. For nutrients in the tank, I use my spider sponge as a tell-tell sign that something isn't right in the tank. If it is coming out as usual, everything else is on point. If it doesn't, then there is something wrong in paradise.

I know your set on the Trident, but you should definitely give the Alkatronic a peak under the covers to see what it has to offer. I love that it is a standalone unit and doesn't rely on anything else to function. You still get online access and can send info to your Apex if you like. Recent firmware update has made it even better than before and they actually listen to user advice and incorporate what they can into the platform. Gonna love it when their doser comes out. Will be 5 channels. Too many times have I needed the additional channels and just refuse to have to buy multiple dosers for my system.

 

[redpine42]

I like Apex for the most part. For a very expensive piece of equipment some of the pieces don't work very good. I'm about to dump the dos, it is constantly getting air in it. I adjust tighten and replace. The constant bubbles make it hard to get consistency. I had 4 days of consistent Alk, then today it dropped .4, I look and find more bubbles. I'm guessing if you want to use trident for consistency you'll have to use dos, which is very inconsistent.