Triton Core 7 Unavailable

[CMO]

Perhaps a new thread should be started with an appropriate title for those who would like to debate Triton vs. other methods. I and it seems many other Triton users are eagerly waiting an update on the supply issue. All this kind of talk does is push the people we'd like to chime in further away...

 

[Want2BS8ed]

Perhaps a new thread should be started with an appropriate title for those who would like to debate Triton vs. other methods. .

Agree

I and it seems many other Triton users are eagerly waiting an update on the supply issue.

Unfortunately we have been waiting on that answer for 7 months and what few updates have been received have proven... uhm, less than accurate?

 

[MnFish1]

Wow, good job. You managed to be angry with someone who has not used the “chemicals” exactly and is using a methodology (calcium reactor with a fuge) and is considering using 2 part... what is your problem? I gave a balanced assessment for why NOT to use triton “chemicals” seemingly agreeing with you. I just left a local forum because of a rigid kid who knows everything and argues with everyone all the time. It seems my dad was correct... people like you are in all walks of life. I might as well get used to it.

Though I quoted your post accidentally my comments weren’t directed at you. I wasn’t ‘angry’ at all. I really am not sure where you’re coming from with this.

 

[MnFish1]

Agree

Unfortunately we have been waiting on that answer for 7 months and what few updates have been received have proven... uhm, less than accurate?

I agree as well. However I guess I think the two issues are related. As I’ve said repeatedly I have no debate about the triton method as compared to others. My point was that why risk thousands of dollars of livestock on a method that may or may not be better as long as these supply and quality Control issues exist. In not sure what the “purpose” of this thread is. For people to repeatedly ask when the stuff is arriving only to receive no answer?

 

[chargingxray]

I started a new tank just 2 months ago and want to do the triton method something terrible but not being able to get the products you need when you need them is scary. The only negative comments, videos, forums about triton is the availability of the product.

 

[Kyl]

The general issue is that people are upset because they got sold on a system that works with a packaging / shipping solution that also initially worked (plastic containers). For whatever reason, be it ideological, monetarily or both, that changed and what the US market especially has been left with is with quite frankly an awful mess. The supply chain has been erratic resulting in premiere vendors often stocked out in no small part due to hoarding, which further perpetuates stock shortages. I can't blame people for buying all they can find, they start to panic when a tank life support system is un-available for extended periods. The only work-around suggested has been jumping through multiple interim hoops of other product lines or searching some out of state LFS that may have a few cases squirrelled away. Many people are running this system with thousands, or tends of thousands invested in delicate livestock, and if there's one thing this industry knows it's that sudden change usually results in losses.

Explanations have been given for the product issues; it was a faulty packaging process, then the carriers are too rough with the packages, then you should decant the product into other vessels and now the tetra packs can't handle 3A & 3B given industry shipping standards / methods. The last couple are fine, possibly a benefit depending on the hobbyist, but it's been one thing after another for an extended period of time.

The other major part of it from the retail side are the staffing time costs required to handle product RMA's with the customer, the distributor or even the manufacturer. The cost to Triton themselves also can't be discounted, they are a business not a charity, and any losses incurred from these replacements isn't good for them, nor ultimately the hobbyist. My day is spent with procurement and logistics, and this would serve as a good curriculum case study for people of what can happen with something seemingly as simple as a product packaging change.

If this was just a random pre-mixed 2 part system people would probably have just switched to company B and not looked back by now. As many have stated though, it works; results are all over, water changes are effectively removed, nutrient export is greatly simplified and most importantly customers were happy that their tanks appear to be both happy, healthy and growing. At the end of the day that's all people want, that their goods arrive un-damaged, there are no packaging failures for whatever reason, and that supply shortages don't happen.

The fact that people have stuck with Triton through all of this should be something they take very important heed of. Hopefully for all involved the issues can become a thing of the past sooner than later. If the FB group is any indication the gong show will probably be continuing though :|

 

[Want2BS8ed]

And this arrives in today’s inbox from Triton:

The following changes to Core7 production will come into immediate effect.

Components 3A and 3B will now be delivered in a powder form.

The contents and concentration of the solutions remain the same therefore there will be no change to any dosing requirements.

Please look out for the new spec Core7 at your local retailer soon.​

How rude, pretentious and tone deaf can a company possibly be? I’m certain we will see another price reduction recognizing the reduced shipping and material savings for using our own RO water... oh wait, we haven’t seen the first price reduction yet for the (failing) milk cartons.

Double penalty pricing for the US market - yay...

 

[fisher4d]

Now we need to measure out 960ml.

 

[MnFish1]

The general issue is that people are upset because they got sold on a system that works with a packaging / shipping solution that also initially worked (plastic containers). For whatever reason, be it ideological, monetarily or both, that changed and what the US market especially has been left with is with quite frankly an awful mess. The supply chain has been erratic resulting in premiere vendors often stocked out in no small part due to hoarding, which further perpetuates stock shortages. I can't blame people for buying all they can find, they start to panic when a tank life support system is un-available for extended periods. The only work-around suggested has been jumping through multiple interim hoops of other product lines or searching some out of state LFS that may have a few cases squirrelled away. Many people are running this system with thousands, or tends of thousands invested in delicate livestock, and if there's one thing this industry knows it's that sudden change usually results in losses.

Explanations have been given for the product issues; it was a faulty packaging process, then the carriers are too rough with the packages, then you should decant the product into other vessels and now the tetra packs can't handle 3A & 3B given industry shipping standards / methods. The last couple are fine, possibly a benefit depending on the hobbyist, but it's been one thing after another for an extended period of time.

The other major part of it from the retail side are the staffing time costs required to handle product RMA's with the customer, the distributor or even the manufacturer. The cost to Triton themselves also can't be discounted, they are a business not a charity, and any losses incurred from these replacements isn't good for them, nor ultimately the hobbyist. My day is spent with procurement and logistics, and this would serve as a good curriculum case study for people of what can happen with something seemingly as simple as a product packaging change.

If this was just a random pre-mixed 2 part system people would probably have just switched to company B and not looked back by now. As many have stated though, it works; results are all over, water changes are effectively removed, nutrient export is greatly simplified and most importantly customers were happy that their tanks appear to be both happy, healthy and growing. At the end of the day that's all people want, that their goods arrive un-damaged, there are no packaging failures for whatever reason, and that supply shortages don't happen.

The fact that people have stuck with Triton through all of this should be something they take very important heed of. Hopefully for all involved the issues can become a thing of the past sooner than later. If the FB group is any indication the gong show will probably be continuing though :|

Yeah - my take away is - given the new technology we all have access to - do any of us need to do as many water changes. I think this is an important point. I haven't used the triton (or any other) system - but Im doing far less water changes, far less testing - and my tank is doing great. This might offend some triton (or other method) supporters, but - the underlying question is not as BRS *and I love BRS - is researching (i.e. does triton let us use less water change) - to me the question is - are we all doing too many water changes to begin with - in this era of dosing, new technologies, gfo, etc etc etc...... Hopefully some of the critics of my posts here will see the point. if not - well all good

 

[Del’s Reef]

Why not do this...... run dry mix. Keep the milk carton idea if you want, little .5L containers of dry mix that the hobbyist mixes with RODI. Customs wouldn’t have as much of an issue, leaks wouldn’t be a concern, and distributors wouldn’t have to be scrambling time and again

Look what they’re doing now

Dry mix isn't going to be possible with Core7. It's multiple times the concentration of the Base elements and the copycats due to the process they now use to dissolve the elements into solution.

Seems it is possible

Wasn't there a Reef Builder's article or was it internet here say that Triton had developed a proprietary method of mixing/increasing the concentration of its supplements?

I guess not.

@DEL'S REEF I was away for the weekend, it looks like @Chadmowens answered your question, but I am happy to expand or reiterate. In the event that you cannot get Core7 Base Elements, use Core7 Reef Supplements.

As @Lasse pointed out, it would be nearly impossible to expect customers to reconstitute Triton's core chemical line with the same concentration or accuracy so it is a non starter.

Wait, but now Triton is expecting customers to reconstitute it?

And this arrives in today’s inbox from Triton:

The following changes to Core7 production will come into immediate effect.

Components 3A and 3B will now be delivered in a powder form.

The contents and concentration of the solutions remain the same therefore there will be no change to any dosing requirements.

Please look out for the new spec Core7 at your local retailer soon.​

What several of us here said might help....

 

[MnFish1]

Look what they’re doing now



Seems it is possible



I guess not.



Wait, but now Triton is expecting customers to reconstitute it?



What several of us here said might help....

chemicals are chemicals....

 

[tastyfish]

Look what they’re doing now

Seems it is possible

Yup, at least for 3a/3b, but not 1 or 2. Lots of conflicting information going around. It was stated previously by a third party (Reef Builders I think, so I should have known) that they were using ultrasound to dissolve to higher concentrations than otherwise possible.

 

[Want2BS8ed]

Yup, at least for 3a/3b, but not 1 or 2. Lots of conflicting information going around. It was stated previously by a third party (Reef Builders I think, so I should have known) that they were using ultrasound to dissolve to higher concentrations than otherwise possible.

Based on Triton’s most recent statements, that sounds to be the case with 3a/3b, but that begs the question regarding parts 1 and 2, wouldn’t a saturation higher than otherwise possible eventually precipitate out? Think I will ask the question over in the chemistry forumn.

It also raises another question, if Reef Builders reporting was so startlingly poor that we “should have known” better than to believe it, should Triton have not corrected it?

 

[rockskimmerflow]

Based on Triton’s most recent statements, that sounds to be the case with 3a/3b, but that begs the question regarding parts 1 and 2, wouldn’t a saturation higher than otherwise possible eventually precipitate out? Think I will ask the question over in the chemistry forumn.

It also raises another question, if Reef Builders reporting was so startlingly poor that we “should have known” better than to believe it, should Triton have not corrected it?

Part 1 and 2 are not anywhere near their saturation points. Only 3a and 3b - the only reason triton uses 2 different alk parts is because the 2 components are needed to retain a 1:1 dosing ratio across all 4 parts. Meaning parts 1 and 2 are already at a concentration that would require twice as much the max concentration they could make of the alk component. It's always the alk part that limits dosing systems in terms of making them work in equal volume dosages. Mag and calcium easily reach higher concentrations than carbonates can before heavy precipitation occurs.

Now to the other point about reefbuilders - you are absolutely correct. I thought the original article about Core7 odd in the mention of some proprietary dissolution technique and Randy on the chemistry forum cleared that up for me in that there was nothing exotic about the concentration limits they had achieved. Also, the recent reefbuilders article about the changeover to dry form 3a and 3b made literally zero mention of the reason for the change (just noted it was the evolution of an already great eco friendly product into a more eco friendly version) Gotta love spin. I guess we shouldn't mind the monumental amount of waste the cartons have created in their extremely high failure rate since they aren't evil, highly recyclable HDPE plastic.

 

[MnFish1]

@Sarah24! My statement was that Core7 supplements do not contain undesirable contaminants that will build up and necessitate a water change. Many reefers have maintained very low organic loads but still saw their tanks suffer with a lack of water changes. There are two major reasons people do water changes, to dilute contaminants and to replace depleted minerals. Contaminants can be built up organics like nitrate and phosphate, or metals, like lithium, tin, lead, nickel, vanadium, etc.. Over the years, lots of reefers have managed to maintain low organic build up via refugiums and other forms of phytoremediation, and through the various methods of carbon dosing but still have metal build ups that necessitate a partial water change. Only after Triton introduced ICP-OES testing of aquarium water were home reefers equipped to see these metal contaminant build ups. When magnesium supplements have unlisted lithium contaminants, the lithium builds up and must be removed to get back to NSW conditions. Same thing goes with KH buffers with borate salts in them. Blindly dosing trace element blends of unknown makeup is also a common cause of trace element imbalance. With ICP-OES testing you can see what metals are in abundance or deficient and act accordingly, instead of blindly performing a monthly 50% water change.

I agree that water is not consistant on every reef, that is why Triton went to the edges of the earth to sample water from different reefs. https://reefbuilders.com/2015/08/05/tracked-purple-monster-acro-original-source/#
in this Reefbuilders article you'll see me taking samples from the Solomon Islands. We've taken samples from all over Indonesia, and the Great Barrier Reef.

@clover128 I'll check in with them immediately, thanks!

This is meant to be an honest question not any kind of slam. If there are no contaminants in your products what is the value of testing for some of the elements you do? My guess is that most contaminants produced or found in your testing result from contaminants /elements present in food. In any case once a contaminant or problem is found with icp testing the solution is to change water

 

[MnFish1]

@Sarah24! My statement was that Core7 supplements do not contain undesirable contaminants that will build up and necessitate a water change. Many reefers have maintained very low organic loads but still saw their tanks suffer with a lack of water changes. There are two major reasons people do water changes, to dilute contaminants and to replace depleted minerals. Contaminants can be built up organics like nitrate and phosphate, or metals, like lithium, tin, lead, nickel, vanadium, etc.. Over the years, lots of reefers have managed to maintain low organic build up via refugiums and other forms of phytoremediation, and through the various methods of carbon dosing but still have metal build ups that necessitate a partial water change. Only after Triton introduced ICP-OES testing of aquarium water were home reefers equipped to see these metal contaminant build ups. When magnesium supplements have unlisted lithium contaminants, the lithium builds up and must be removed to get back to NSW conditions. Same thing goes with KH buffers with borate salts in them. Blindly dosing trace element blends of unknown makeup is also a common cause of trace element imbalance. With ICP-OES testing you can see what metals are in abundance or deficient and act accordingly, instead of blindly performing a monthly 50% water change.

I agree that water is not consistant on every reef, that is why Triton went to the edges of the earth to sample water from different reefs. https://reefbuilders.com/2015/08/05/tracked-purple-monster-acro-original-source/#
in this Reefbuilders article you'll see me taking samples from the Solomon Islands. We've taken samples from all over Indonesia, and the Great Barrier Reef.

@clover128 I'll check in with them immediately, thanks!

This is meant to be an honest question not any kind of slam. If there are no contaminants in your products what is the value of testing for some of the elements you do? My guess is that most contaminants produced or found in your testing result from contaminants /elements present in food. In any case once a contaminant or problem is found with icp testing the solution is to change water

 

[tastyfish]

This is meant to be an honest question not any kind of slam. If there are no contaminants in your products what is the value of testing for some of the elements you do? My guess is that most contaminants produced or found in your testing result from contaminants /elements present in food. In any case once a contaminant or problem is found with icp testing the solution is to change water

Food, salt, corrosion, plastics, frag plugs, ceramics, RO etc etc etc

 

[Del’s Reef]

Food, salt, corrosion, plastics, frag plugs, ceramics, RO etc etc etc

The fish themselves, pollution from the air, the stuff on your hands when you reach in, there are many sources. All of which, if I’m understanding the method properly, can be either neutralized or bound up and removed, at least for the most part. The method doesn’t eliminate all possible water changes, but is supposed to highly reduce them.

 

[Tim2@Triton]

This is meant to be an honest question not any kind of slam. If there are no contaminants in your products what is the value of testing for some of the elements you do? My guess is that most contaminants produced or found in your testing result from contaminants /elements present in food. In any case once a contaminant or problem is found with icp testing the solution is to change water

Tasty fish and Mel’s Reef answered the question very well. Things like corroding hinges, failing pump impellers, heater element on its way out, fake titanium in your chiller, leaching Elements from live rock and plastics, water dripping from the ceiling, etc.. all sources of contamination. Cleaner supplements means you can narrow down the culprit faster.

 

[tastyfish]

Tasty fish and Mel’s Reef answered the question very well. Things like corroding hinges, failing pump impellers, heater element on its way out, fake titanium in your chiller, leaching Elements from live rock and plastics, water dripping from the ceiling, etc.. all sources of contamination. Cleaner supplements means you can narrow down the culprit faster.

Just to add to this, I used a 3rd party Potassium supplement (as nowhere had Triton at the time - a few years ago now), and even though it was labelled as Potassium and nothing else, subsequent ICP tests showed very high Boron levels along with a few other things. Often there are additives in supplements which are not listed. Intentional or contamination.