Valentini Puffer Situation...

[Dom]

While I don't believe this is a true emergency, I've posted here as I believe it is where the problem will get the most attention. My apologies in advance for the long post, but I want to be as thorough as possible in providing information.

The tank in question is a 33 long with dual overflows and a 1 inch return. Additionally, there are two HOB AquaClear 70s that I've added for additional flow and easy access for feeding and other things such as adding carbon when necessary. The sump has an Reef Octopus 110 and a refugium along with 25 pounds of live rock.

The first inhabitant to the tank is the Valentini Puffer in question. He has been in the tank 488 days, and acclimated nicely. He has been very happy, engaging me every time I approach the tank, not only when feeding.

There is a Nem in the tank for 451 days and noticed that it split in June. Both Nems are thriving.

Also in the tank are a pair of Ocellaris clowns, present in the tank for 316 days. Each of which occupies a different Nem.

They have all been getting along swimmingly (pun intended), so much so that the puffer and what has become the female of the two clowns, have become very close, swimming together throughout the tank. In fact, early on, I even witnessed the female clown staying between the male clown and the Valentini, chasing him away if he got too close. Eventually, this behavior stopped.

Over the last 3 weeks, I have been observing behavior by the Valentini, which isn't of itself strange, but strange for him.

I have been noticing that when the lights come down and during the moon phase of lighting, he has been settling in the substrate to sleep when he usually settles in on one of two spots on a rock. And during the day phase, he swims about the entire area of the tank.

Today (during the day phase), I found him in an upright position on the substrate under a rocky overhang. This is unusual because during this phase of the light schedule, he's swimming about the tank. And when I put my face to the tank, he looked at me but didn't approach.

He is currently isolated in the tank inside an netted isolation box. He is alive, but just laying on the bottom, upright. He shows no interest in eating, not even his favorite; brine shrimp.

He doesn't seem to have any injuries, although I do need to get a better look as it is hard to examine him in detail through the netting.

I don't believe that this is a water quality issue. I use RODI water whose output reads ZERO. My water changes are faithful weekly changes at about 15% using Reef Crystals blended with a scoop of Red Sea Coral Pro for a small boost in elements necessary for corals.

Calcium - 440
Alk - 9 dKH
Mag - 1325
Nitrates - 15
Phosphates - .05

It should be noted that these are approximations based on test result history 24 hours after a water change. At the time of this post, a water change was completed about 24 hours ago (weekly on Sundays... yep... Sunday is water change day).

I'm thinking a long term isolation to see if he bounces back. Of course, there is a life expectancy of 5-10 years. And while I have him over 1 year, I don't know how old he was when I got him.

Also note worthy is that I found him in the overflow box about 4 weeks ago, so, there may have been some aggression. But why would there be aggression between them when they have been getting along for so long?

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Dom

 

[foxt]

It could be aggression from the female clown, but you would have noticed it. If those clowns have been together for a year as a pair, they may have reached maturity and could be on the way to spawning. Does that seem possible from their relative size and behavior? That could have the female becoming aggressive in a relatively small space. Your plan of getting it isolated to see if it will start eating again is probably the best course of action for now.

 

[Dom]

It could be aggression from the female clown, but you would have noticed it. If those clowns have been together for a year as a pair, they may have reached maturity and could be on the way to spawning. Does that seem possible from their relative size and behavior? That could have the female becoming aggressive in a relatively small space. Your plan of getting it isolated to see if it will start eating again is probably the best course of action for now.

That is surprising, considering that the female clown and puffer were so close for a stretch of time, where they almost behaved as a pair.

I have occasionally noticed the "dance" that clowns do, and I wonder if they will ever spawn. This isn't something I am set up to deal with and hope that they do not.

 

[MnFish1]

While I don't believe this is a true emergency, I've posted here as I believe it is where the problem will get the most attention. My apologies in advance for the long post, but I want to be as thorough as possible in providing information.

The tank in question is a 33 long with dual overflows and a 1 inch return. Additionally, there are two HOB AquaClear 70s that I've added for additional flow and easy access for feeding and other things such as adding carbon when necessary. The sump has an Reef Octopus 110 and a refugium along with 25 pounds of live rock.

The first inhabitant to the tank is the Valentini Puffer in question. He has been in the tank 488 days, and acclimated nicely. He has been very happy, engaging me every time I approach the tank, not only when feeding.

There is a Nem in the tank for 451 days and noticed that it split in June. Both Nems are thriving.

Also in the tank are a pair of Ocellaris clowns, present in the tank for 316 days. Each of which occupies a different Nem.

They have all been getting along swimmingly (pun intended), so much so that the puffer and what has become the female of the two clowns, have become very close, swimming together throughout the tank. In fact, early on, I even witnessed the female clown staying between the male clown and the Valentini, chasing him away if he got too close. Eventually, this behavior stopped.

Over the last 3 weeks, I have been observing behavior by the Valentini, which isn't of itself strange, but strange for him.

I have been noticing that when the lights come down and during the moon phase of lighting, he has been settling in the substrate to sleep when he usually settles in on one of two spots on a rock. And during the day phase, he swims about the entire area of the tank.

Today (during the day phase), I found him in an upright position on the substrate under a rocky overhang. This is unusual because during this phase of the light schedule, he's swimming about the tank. And when I put my face to the tank, he looked at me but didn't approach.

He is currently isolated in the tank inside an netted isolation box. He is alive, but just laying on the bottom, upright. He shows no interest in eating, not even his favorite; brine shrimp.

He doesn't seem to have any injuries, although I do need to get a better look as it is hard to examine him in detail through the netting.

I don't believe that this is a water quality issue. I use RODI water whose output reads ZERO. My water changes are faithful weekly changes at about 15% using Reef Crystals blended with a scoop of Red Sea Coral Pro for a small boost in elements necessary for corals.

Calcium - 440
Alk - 9 dKH
Mag - 1325
Nitrates - 15
Phosphates - .05

It should be noted that these are approximations based on test result history 24 hours after a water change. At the time of this post, a water change was completed about 24 hours ago (weekly on Sundays... yep... Sunday is water change day).

I'm thinking a long term isolation to see if he bounces back. Of course, there is a life expectancy of 5-10 years. And while I have him over 1 year, I don't know how old he was when I got him.

Also note worthy is that I found him in the overflow box about 4 weeks ago, so, there may have been some aggression. But why would there be aggression between them when they have been getting along for so long?

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Dom

So - if it was a toxic issue (water chem) - it shoudl be affecting all of the fish not just one - so unlikely
If it was aggression, you should see some marks - or evidence of aggression- I would suggest that you sit in front of the watching - are the 2 clowns getting along 'better now'? - perhaps it is aggression
This leaves disease - or nutrition - since you dont see any 'diseasea' - it could still be parasites/ internal or external or another process. I guess we need more information to decide.

PS I do not think there is an advantage keeping him in the net - why are you doing that? I t may lead to more stress, etc. Good luck wiht

 

[Dom]

So - if it was a toxic issue (water chem) - it shoudl be affecting all of the fish not just one - so unlikely
If it was aggression, you should see some marks - or evidence of aggression- I would suggest that you sit in front of the watching - are the 2 clowns getting along 'better now'? - perhaps it is aggression
This leaves disease - or nutrition - since you dont see any 'diseasea' - it could still be parasites/ internal or external or another process. I guess we need more information to decide.

PS I do not think there is an advantage keeping him in the net - why are you doing that? I t may lead to more stress, etc. Good luck wiht

I suspect this may be the result of aggression and is why I isolated the little guy. I am installing an egg crate divider in the tank so that he's back in his own environment and still protected from the clowns.

There is a mark on him, but a detailed exam is difficult through the netting. I'm going to let him rest for now and put him in a glass 1000 ML beaker for closer inspection tomorrow.

 

[foxt]

That is surprising, considering that the female clown and puffer were so close for a stretch of time, where they almost behaved as a pair.

Fish are funny that way. As they mature, or conditions change, or the mix changes, the balance can go out the window in a heartbeat.

I have occasionally noticed the "dance" that clowns do, and I wonder if they will ever spawn. This isn't something I am set up to deal with and hope that they do not.

It sounds like they may not be there yet. But it could happen, especially if they are fed a good diet and are comfortable in the tank. Your puffer could be a sign of things moving along towards eggs. Or not. If they do start laying eggs, it will not be a one time event.

 

[Dom]

Fish are funny that way. As they mature, or conditions change, or the mix changes, the balance can go out the window in a heartbeat.


It sounds like they may not be there yet. But it could happen, especially if they are fed a good diet and are comfortable in the tank. Your puffer could be a sign of things moving along towards eggs. Or not. If they do start laying eggs, it will not be a one time event.

So you are saying that they view the puffer as a threat to their eggs, and that they are trying to eliminate the threat?

I'm thinking I intervened early enough and that the puffer will recover. But what's the point in putting it back in the tank where the attack took place? The clowns will just re-injure it at some point.

I'm thinking that a different tank may be in order.

 

[foxt]

It is hard to tell without watching them. The clownfish may be in the process of pairing, which will make the female more aggressive, especially towards the male. Although they have been together for a year, it could take that long for the female to mature enough to pair. Or they have paired, and they are now moving to the next stage, but you would notice more of the "dance", and they would be demonstrating more nesting behavior like fanning particular spots in the tank, etc. Or none of the above (sorry!).

If you are going to put the puffer in a different tank for a while and let it recover, you could try reintroducing it when it is back to healthy. Then you can observe what is really going on, plus the break from each other may shake things up enough to stop the aggression. In a 30L tank, the clowns may think they own the whole space, especially if they are hosting two different nems that are far apart. And that puffer is the only other fish. You could try moving the male's nem a bit to see if that shakes things up. Or adding another fish so that clowns get the idea that it there is more than one other fish in the tank.

 

[Dom]

UPDATE:

Sad to say that the Valentini succumbed to its injuries overnight.

It is hard to tell in the picture but it's left pectoral fin is completely gone, so, aggression was the cause of death.

In hindsight, this has been going on for a week or so, but I just didn't notice it. I only saw it as strange behavior but never considered the cause as he continued to eat.

 

[foxt]

Sorry for your loss. It stinks to lose a fish that you have had for so long.

Now you have a clownfish-only tank. They can become even more territorial when they are the only fish in the tank, especially a relatively small one. And especially if there are two host anemones separated by some distance. They will see that, and the surrounding areas, as their turf.

Do you think you might add another fish someday?

 

[Mayerlyn A]

Sorry this happened.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Clowns are evil in many cases. Too bad this happened. Time to introduce Mr. clown to a 9" puffer ( clown will be a snack).

 

[MnFish1]

Sorry you had to experience this

 

[Dom]

Sorry for your loss. It stinks to lose a fish that you have had for so long.

Now you have a clownfish-only tank. They can become even more territorial when they are the only fish in the tank, especially a relatively small one. And especially if there are two host anemones separated by some distance. They will see that, and the surrounding areas, as their turf.

Do you think you might add another fish someday?

Based on the advice I've received here and what I have found on line, these two clown fish are not about to share the tank with anyone else, now that they have it for themselves.

The thing is this:

I already have a setup for two of the nastiest Tomato clowns that killed everything I tried to add to the tank

I'm thinking about putting egg crate in the tank as a divider and adding the Tomato clowns to that same tank so that I can reduce the amount of resources I'm using (electricity, water, salt mix).

This has been a discouraging experience.

 

[foxt]

Yeah, Tomato clowns are bad. Been there, done that.

Discouraging, yes. You could try rehoming one of the ocellaris, you mentioned that you weren't really interested in rearing babies. Can't say for sure, but you might see less aggression from one vs. a pair. Also, you could add more than one other fish to that tank, the fact that it was clowns vs. sole valentini probably magnified the aggression.