When does dry sand become alive?

[JimCali75]

Hey all,

So I’ve got a pound Gulf Live Sand from AquaBiomics coming next week. I’m setting up a 10 gallon tank with special grade dry sand and some reef saver dry rock to cultivate the live sand in. I’ve already acclimated a fresh water molly over to salt for the tank. I felt like this was the best way to not introduce any pathogens/parasites to the tank. After all you’re paying $60 for DNA tested live sand. In general how long do you think it’ll take for the dry sand/rock to become “alive”? The goal is to keep this tank going to help seed future builds as well as pass on to friends to help with the biodiversity in their tanks. I’m excited to see how well this works in comparison to bagged live sand or bacteria in a bottle. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated!!

https://aquabiomics.com/order-supplements

 

[Dan_P]

Hey all,

So I’ve got a pound Gulf Live Sand from AquaBiomics coming next week. I’m setting up a 10 gallon tank with special grade dry sand and some reef saver dry rock to cultivate the live sand in. I’ve already acclimated a fresh water molly over to salt for the tank. I felt like this was the best way to not introduce any pathogens/parasites to the tank. After all you’re paying $60 for DNA tested live sand. In general how long do you think it’ll take for the dry sand/rock to become “alive”? The goal is to keep this tank going to help seed future builds as well as pass on to friends to help with the biodiversity in their tanks. I’m excited to see how well this works in comparison to bagged live sand or bacteria in a bottle. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated!!

https://aquabiomics.com/order-supplements

WOW, there are so many things that can happen to make the goal an impossibility. Bacteria can colonize a new surface pretty quickly, but which ones and then which ones thrive under the conditions you provide. I suppose you will be testing the aquarium via Aquabiomics.

 

[lapin]

My thought is it will take the sterile sand and rock the same time as it would take if you added a live rock instead of the live sand. As to how long overall, depends on how much rock and sand you are trying to cultivate.

 

[bruno3047]

Without any fritz or other bacteria added? In my experience, 6 to 12 weeks to cycle a tank with dry sand and rocks. You should probably buy yourself some ammonium chloride to seed the tank. I use Doctor Tim’s. As a general rule, the more ammonia accumulates in your tank, the more established your aerobic bacteria base will be when you finally complete the cycle. But you will extend the cycle by as much as a few weeks. Then your concern is high nitrates. You fix that by accumulating an anaerobic bacteria base. That’s another story.

 

[JimCali75]

Without any fritz or other bacteria added? In my experience, 6 to 12 weeks to cycle a tank with dry sand and rocks. You should probably buy yourself some ammonium chloride to seed the tank. I use Doctor Tim’s. As a general rule, the more ammonia accumulates in your tank, the more established your aerobic bacteria base will be when you finally complete the cycle. But you will extend the cycle by as much as a few weeks. Then your concern is high nitrates. You fix that by accumulating an anaerobic bacteria base. That’s another story.

Yeah, just the bacteria in the Gulf Sand. I didn’t figure to add any bottled bacteria thinking it would out compete the Gulf Sand? I do have ammonia chloride. Do you think doing to 2ppm would be sufficient? Follow similar method as Dr Tim’s One and Only?

What would you do to build up the anaerobic base oncethe tank is cycled? Appreciate your input?

 

[bruno3047]

Yeah, just the bacteria in the Gulf Sand. I didn’t figure to add any bottled bacteria thinking it would out compete the Gulf Sand? I do have ammonia chloride. Do you think doing to 2ppm would be sufficient? Follow similar method as Dr Tim’s One and Only?

What would you do to build up the anaerobic base oncethe tank is cycled? Appreciate your input?

If it was me, I would do double Dr. Tim’s recommended dose. This is going to extend the cycle by a few weeks, but when the cycle is finished, you are going to have a much more solid bacteria base that will act as a buffer against overfeeding and adding too many fish too soon. Two common problems with a new tank. Once you established your aerobic bacteria base, you should start dosing some type of carbon based material. I use white vinegar, while others use vodka. Vodka has a much higher concentration of carbon than vinegar, but vinegar is easier to handle. Here are some excellent instructions on how to do it, and save yourself the trouble of battling the ugly period and algae. Good luck. By the way. I don’t check this forum every day, but at least once a week. If you have any other questions, please post them, and I will eventually answer.

AI Overview
Building an anaerobic bacteria base to control nitrates and phosphates involves creating an oxygen-deprived habitat in your system and providing a carbon source, such as vinegar, to fuel their growth and activity.

Creating the Anaerobic Habitat
Anaerobic bacteria thrive in environments with very low or no oxygen. This can be achieved through specific filter designs or media.

• Deep Sand Bed (DSB): A simple, classic method involves a sand bed of 4-6 inches deep in a remote sump or a quiet area of the main tank. The deep layers naturally become oxygen-deprived, creating the ideal zone for these bacteria. The top layer can be stirred gently to prevent detritus buildup, but the deeper layers should remain undisturbed.
• Porous Biological Media: Highly porous synthetic media blocks or bio-balls, such as those made of nano-ceramic material, can house both aerobic bacteria on the outside and anaerobic bacteria in their low-oxygen core. Place this media in a low-flow area of your sump or a dedicated media reactor with restricted flow.
• Live Rock: Porous live rock naturally provides internal low-oxygen zones where anaerobic bacteria can flourish.

Using Vinegar as a Carbon Source
Vinegar (acetic acid) provides the necessary organic carbon to fuel the growth of the beneficial bacteria that consume nitrates and phosphates. This process is known as carbon dosing.
Important Considerations:

• Monitoring is crucial: Regularly test your nitrate, phosphate, pH, and alkalinity levels. Vinegar can lower alkalinity over time, which may require you to monitor and buffer your tank's water parameters.
• A protein skimmer is highly recommended: Carbon dosing dramatically increases bacterial biomass, which needs to be exported from the system via a protein skimmer to prevent bacterial blooms (cloudy water) and maintain oxygen levels.
• Start extremely slowly: Dosing too much too quickly can shock your system and potentially harm your fish and invertebrates.

Dosing Instructions:

1. Measure and record your initial nitrate and phosphate levels.
2. Begin with a low dose: Start with a dose of approximately 0.1 ml of white vinegar per 10 gallons of water daily.
3. Increase gradually: If water parameters remain stable and there are no signs of stress to tank inhabitants after a week, slowly increase the dose by small increments (e.g., 0.1-0.2 ml per 10 gallons per week).
4. Monitor closely: Observe your tank's clarity, your livestock's health, and water parameters daily as you increase the dosage.
5. Reach maintenance dose: Continue increasing until you reach a stable maintenance dose where your nitrate and phosphate levels are at the desired (but not zero) levels. A common maintenance dose can be around 1.0-1.5 ml per 10 gallons daily, but this will vary by tank.
6. Maintain consistency: Once optimal levels are reached, maintain a consistent daily dose to prevent spikes. Automatic dosing pumps are ideal for this purpose.

Summary
Vinegar serves as the food for the anaerobic bacteria, but you must provide an appropriate, oxygen-deprived habitat for them to establish a thriving colony. Combining a physical anaerobic zone (like a DSB or specific media) with careful, monitored vinegar dosing is an effective way to control unwanted nutrients in your aquarium.

 

[vlangel]

I utilize the deep sandbed in the back right corner of my 75g display tank. I put some large dense rock on the bottom of the tank and poured the sandbed around them so that peaks of the rockwork still showed. I do have some rock being used as a retaining wall at the base of the mound of sand. That way both the sand and the rock will nurture anaerobic bacteria plus it makes an interesting aquascape. I am growing 2 mangroves in that area. In the past this has been so effective that I have struggled to keep nitrates above 5-10 ppm. Some folks are afraid of deep sandbeds but I started a thread on here and asked for first person stories of their tank being poisoned by a deep sandbed and I did not get any. A deep sandbed needs no maintenance except maybe stirring the top half inch on occasion. Here is what mine looks like:

 

[JimCali75]

I utilize the deep sandbed in the back right corner of my 75g display tank. I put some large dense rock on the bottom of the tank and poured the sandbed around them so that peaks of the rockwork still showed. I do have some rock being used as a retaining wall at the base of the mound of sand. That way both the sand and the rock will nurture anaerobic bacteria plus it makes an interesting aquascape. I am growing 2 mangroves in that area. In the past this has been so effective that I have struggled to keep nitrates above 5-10 ppm. Some folks are afraid of deep sandbeds but I started a thread on here and asked for first person stories of their tank being poisoned by a deep sandbed and I did not get any. A deep sandbed needs no maintenance except maybe stirring the top half inch on occasion. Here is what mine looks like:

Hi, Thanks for you input and beautiful tank!

Yeah, I’m debating the deep vs shallow sand bed. As you know you’ll get mixed opinions on the interweb on the subject. The entire purpose of this 10 gallon is to cultivate live sand and rock for future builds. It’s not for display at all. I would love to do a deeper sand bed to produce more live sand. I was thinking to start shallow and add more as it matures.

 

[JimCali75]

If it was me, I would do double Dr. Tim’s recommended dose. This is going to extend the cycle by a few weeks, but when the cycle is finished, you are going to have a much more solid bacteria base that will act as a buffer against overfeeding and adding too many fish too soon. Two common problems with a new tank. Once you established your aerobic bacteria base, you should start dosing some type of carbon based material. I use white vinegar, while others use vodka. Vodka has a much higher concentration of carbon than vinegar, but vinegar is easier to handle. Here are some excellent instructions on how to do it, and save yourself the trouble of battling the ugly period and algae. Good luck. By the way. I don’t check this forum every day, but at least once a week. If you have any other questions, please post them, and I will eventually answer.

AI Overview
Building an anaerobic bacteria base to control nitrates and phosphates involves creating an oxygen-deprived habitat in your system and providing a carbon source, such as vinegar, to fuel their growth and activity.

Creating the Anaerobic Habitat
Anaerobic bacteria thrive in environments with very low or no oxygen. This can be achieved through specific filter designs or media.

• Deep Sand Bed (DSB): A simple, classic method involves a sand bed of 4-6 inches deep in a remote sump or a quiet area of the main tank. The deep layers naturally become oxygen-deprived, creating the ideal zone for these bacteria. The top layer can be stirred gently to prevent detritus buildup, but the deeper layers should remain undisturbed.
• Porous Biological Media: Highly porous synthetic media blocks or bio-balls, such as those made of nano-ceramic material, can house both aerobic bacteria on the outside and anaerobic bacteria in their low-oxygen core. Place this media in a low-flow area of your sump or a dedicated media reactor with restricted flow.
• Live Rock: Porous live rock naturally provides internal low-oxygen zones where anaerobic bacteria can flourish.

Using Vinegar as a Carbon Source
Vinegar (acetic acid) provides the necessary organic carbon to fuel the growth of the beneficial bacteria that consume nitrates and phosphates. This process is known as carbon dosing.
Important Considerations:

• Monitoring is crucial: Regularly test your nitrate, phosphate, pH, and alkalinity levels. Vinegar can lower alkalinity over time, which may require you to monitor and buffer your tank's water parameters.
• A protein skimmer is highly recommended: Carbon dosing dramatically increases bacterial biomass, which needs to be exported from the system via a protein skimmer to prevent bacterial blooms (cloudy water) and maintain oxygen levels.
• Start extremely slowly: Dosing too much too quickly can shock your system and potentially harm your fish and invertebrates.

Dosing Instructions:

1. Measure and record your initial nitrate and phosphate levels.
2. Begin with a low dose: Start with a dose of approximately 0.1 ml of white vinegar per 10 gallons of water daily.
3. Increase gradually: If water parameters remain stable and there are no signs of stress to tank inhabitants after a week, slowly increase the dose by small increments (e.g., 0.1-0.2 ml per 10 gallons per week).
4. Monitor closely: Observe your tank's clarity, your livestock's health, and water parameters daily as you increase the dosage.
5. Reach maintenance dose: Continue increasing until you reach a stable maintenance dose where your nitrate and phosphate levels are at the desired (but not zero) levels. A common maintenance dose can be around 1.0-1.5 ml per 10 gallons daily, but this will vary by tank.
6. Maintain consistency: Once optimal levels are reached, maintain a consistent daily dose to prevent spikes. Automatic dosing pumps are ideal for this purpose.

Summary
Vinegar serves as the food for the anaerobic bacteria, but you must provide an appropriate, oxygen-deprived habitat for them to establish a thriving colony. Combining a physical anaerobic zone (like a DSB or specific media) with careful, monitored vinegar dosing is an effective way to control unwanted nutrients in your aquarium.

Thanks for all the info!

Yeah, I’m not worried about an ugly stage and such. This 10 gallon is strictly for cultivating AquaBiomics Gulf Sand. It’s DNA tested for biodiversity and parasites/pathogens. Injustice was to cultivate more for a couple cuter tank builds. I think I’m going to start with dry sand/rock. Add the pound of gulf sand and dose ammonia chloride as you suggested. Once the tank is cycled I’ll add a couple mollies to keep things rolling. Maybe a small cleanup crew…

 

[bruno3047]

Thanks for all the info!

Yeah, I’m not worried about an ugly stage and such. This 10 gallon is strictly for cultivating AquaBiomics Gulf Sand. It’s DNA tested for biodiversity and parasites/pathogens. Injustice was to cultivate more for a couple cuter tank builds. I think I’m going to start with dry sand/rock. Add the pound of gulf sand and dose ammonia chloride as you suggested. Once the tank is cycled I’ll add a couple mollies to keep things rolling. Maybe a small cleanup crew…

If it’s just a cultivated aerobic bacteria base you’re after, then I would definitely use double the recommended dose from Doctor Tim to start. Then, once the cycle is finished, I would add three times the recommended dose and let the tank recycle again, Then I would add four times the recommended dose and let the tank recycle. The subsequent cycles will be much shorter than the original cycle, maybe a few days to a week. At that point, you will have a very solid aerobic bacteria base. You could keep adding ammonia in larger and larger increments if you want to continue building the base quickly. As far as adding mollies, you don’t need to do that. Just add food to the uninhabited tank in the same amount you would ordinarily feed the mollies and that”ll do it to keep your aerobic bacteria base fed and active. Keep in mind that your bacteria base will adjust its size to the level of food (ammonia) you consistently put into the tank and your nitrate levels will continue to rise unimpeded until algae starts to grow. Check your ammonia levels from time to time just to stay abreast of what’s happening in your tank, since you won’t have any fish in there to show distress if the ammonia levels are elevated. Unnecessary to check nitrite levels. This is my FOWLR tank. There’s also an unseen pair of ocellaris clowns and a flame angel in there. I haven’t cleaned any algae or put my hands into the tank at all (except a couple times to rearrange the rocks) for about two years since I started dosing vinegar. The rock wall I put together using rock rubble provides an excellent location for anaerobic bacteria to thrive. Happy tanking.

 

[JimCali75]

If it’s just a cultivated aerobic bacteria base you’re after, then I would definitely use double the recommended dose from Doctor Tim to start. Then, once the cycle is finished, I would add three times the recommended dose and let the tank recycle again, Then I would add four times the recommended dose and let the tank recycle. The subsequent cycles will be much shorter than the original cycle, maybe a few days to a week. At that point, you will have a very solid aerobic bacteria base. You could keep adding ammonia in larger and larger increments if you want to continue building the base quickly. As far as adding mollies, you don’t need to do that. Just add food to the uninhabited tank in the same amount you would ordinarily feed the mollies and that”ll do it to keep your aerobic bacteria base fed and active. Keep in mind that your bacteria base will adjust its size to the level of food (ammonia) you consistently put into the tank and your nitrate levels will continue to rise unimpeded until algae starts to grow. Check your ammonia levels from time to time just to stay abreast of what’s happening in your tank, since you won’t have any fish in there to show distress if the ammonia levels are elevated. Unnecessary to check nitrite levels. This is my FOWLR tank. There’s also an unseen pair of ocellaris clowns and a flame angel in there. I haven’t cleaned any algae or put my hands into the tank at all (except a couple times to rearrange the rocks) for about two years since I started dosing vinegar. The rock wall I put together using rock rubble provides an excellent location for anaerobic bacteria to thrive. Happy tanking.

Thanks for the reply! Very helpful.. And a very cool tank. Never seen a back wall like that

Do you feel like using mollies after recycling the tank a couple times would diminish the bacteria base vs strictly using ammonia chloride and then ghost feeding? Maybe add a good CUC… I don’t really care how the tank looks but at the same time I don’t necessarily want 10 gallons of algae.. lol

 

[bruno3047]

Based on what you’ve said so far, what I would do if I was after the same goal as you, I would skip the Mollies, unless you’re going to add a bunch of them, like 25 or 30 of them. You have to remember. Your bacteria base will adjust its size according to how much food for them is present. So if you’re going to bulk up your aerobic bacteria base the way I mentioned by adding more and more amounts of ammonia, you’re going to need to continue that dosage, either with ammonium chloride, or with fish food and waste in order to maintain that bulked up bacteria base. If you put, let’s say only 5 mollies in there, then your aerobic bacteria is going to start dying off until it reaches a level just enough to handle the amount of uneaten food and waste that 5 mollies provides consistently. If you don’t care what the tank looks like, then why do you even need lighting? Keep the tank in the dark and you won’t see much algae growth. But at the same time, your nitrates are going to skyrocket. Of course, you could put in only a few mollies, and then just overfeed the tank constantly. In that case, the tank would be susceptible to ammonia and nitrite spikes. Your Mollies may not like that. Happy tanking.

 

[JimCali75]

Thanks, I’m learning slowly.. lol

So developing an anaerobic bacteria base to handle nitrates at the same time isn’t possible? Sry.. I’m a dimwit when it comes to this

 

[bruno3047]

Thanks, I’m learning slowly.. lol

So developing an anaerobic bacteria base to handle nitrates at the same time isn’t possible? Sry.. I’m a dimwit when it comes to this

You can begin dosing carbon, such as white vinegar, as soon as your aerobic cycle is finished. If you have plenty of rock, either live or dry, such as Marco rock, you don’t need to concern yourself with providing a medium for the anaerobic bacteria to thrive. The rock will provide the medium. Most economical way to handle that is to just buy a box of Marco rock rubble and put it at the bottom of your tank or sump. I used this for my rock wall. “Highly porous” is what you want. 1 lb of rock per gallon of water. If you’re using live sand, then I would put the sand on one side of the bottom of the tank and the rock on the other. The sand needs to be fully exposed to aerated water.

https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/m...ck/?searchid=8540105&search_query=Rock+rubble

 

[JimCali75]

You can begin dosing carbon, such as white vinegar, as soon as your aerobic cycle is finished. If you have plenty of rock, either live or dry, such as Marco rock, you don’t need to concern yourself with providing a medium for the anaerobic bacteria to thrive. The rock will provide the medium. Most economical way to handle that is to just buy a box of Marco rock rubble and put it at the bottom of your tank or sump. I used this for my rock wall. “Highly porous” is what you want. 1 lb of rock per gallon of water. If you’re using live sand, then I would put the sand on one side of the bottom of the tank and the rock on the other. The sand needs to be fully exposed to aerated water.

https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/m...ck/?searchid=8540105&search_query=Rock+rubble

Thanks again for all your input! Happy Thanksgiving

This is the COA for the Gulf Sand I received in case you’re interested. I’m thinking of maybe in a few months sending a sample back to AquaBiomics to see how it compares to the original sample. Not that I would know what I’m looking at.. lol

https://aquabiomics.com/certificates/certificate-of-analysis-lrs-g10-11