Why Do We Continue To Buy Frags?

[that Reef Guy]

It seems that there are a lot of people on the forums that don’t understand high school economics. The market determines the price, did we all forget about supply and demand?
It’s very simple high demand = high price, low demand will cause prices to drop.
When you combine a high demand with a low supply it makes prices even higher.
With the addition of an online market in this hobby we created a high demand, combined with movies like “ finding nemo” even more people came into the hobby. With the small amount of local fish stores across the country or just a lack of people knowledgeable on how to keep corals Alive compared to the amount of people interested in the hobby it limits the supply.
Now combine that with the recent Indo shut down which debatably cut off 80% of the coral supply to the world and the supply is even lower.
Low supply + high demand = high prices

On a side note no one ever adds inflation into this argument. When I was a kid I could buy a cheap loaf of bread from my local Albertsons for $0.10 now the cheapest I can buy a loaf of bread is $2-$3. What happened?? Why is it so expensive now? Oh yeah, we forgot about inflation. The dollar is not worth what it used to be so it’s not soo much the cost of things that went up the value of our money went down. The same cars that used to cost $15000 now cost $35000+. I’m tired of old timers saying I used to get a colony for $20-$30 and now it’s $100. When you add a 10-15 year difference that’s the same amount of money. It didn’t get more expensive your money got less valuable. I dare you to find any product in any market that is the same exact price as you paid 15 years ago. That’s just delusional.

Although I really love how no one cares about the state of the reef where all of these corals originally came from. They only care that the corals got more expensive. We need to get sustainable and we need to do it now before our hobby is gone for good.

It takes far money time, money and effort to supply an aquaculture frag than a wild caught and chopped frag. Unless customers are willing to pay more for an aquaculture frag we will continue to harvest from the ocean until nothing is left, have any of you watched chasing corals on Netflix? It might already be to late, our reefs are dying and our hobby is on the line. If you don’t support fragging and aquaculture then you are just as bad as the people pulling everything out of the oceans unsustainably.

Well Said.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Actually, I was referring to The Harold who you quoted. But it doesn't matter. Since the dawn of time people have allowed themselves to be hustled because they prefer the sizzle to the steak. My original post was expressing puzzlement over hobbyists being sold on buying, (what are to me), overpriced, overhyped little pieces of coral. I just don't understand, from a market perspective, why the vendors are allowed and able to set the table. Without the hobbyist, they would not be able to sell anything.

Instead of a discussion I was told that I like to kill corals, have no understanding of the hobby, and suffer from sexual dysfunction. I am 100% sure that these are comments that would not be made to my face, but like so many things on the Internet, anonymity provides safety.

I don't care if you buy frags, don't buy frags, or turn your tank into a terrarium.

Also, Since the Dawn of Time People have been Complaining.

Stop Complaining.

It is not your Money so Don't Worry.

You can Spend your money how you want (On Colonies - nothing wrong with that).

The Rest of Us will Buy Frags (Nothing wrong with that).

And if you DON'T CARE why did you make this post?

 

[MnFish1]

The Reason Frags are more expensive by my estimation is that retailers know that if they sell them and they grow - it could very well be that the person buying will be selling their own frags in 6 months (and thereby be competition). If someone buys 'a colony' - perhaps they are more likely to want to keep it in their own tank - as a complete item.

What I always wonder - How (if people are really growing these frags into large colonies) do people have the space? People talk about tangs needing a big tank lol:). Some of the corals we're buying can be feet long. Who - would ever need more than lets say 10 frags in a 100 gallon tank.

My guess - people lose a lot of frags - and are continuously replacing them, or they are planning to sell frags of they own, or they have 1000's of gallons of tank water.

 

[that Reef Guy]

Actually, I was referring to The Harold who you quoted. But it doesn't matter. Since the dawn of time people have allowed themselves to be hustled because they prefer the sizzle to the steak. My original post was expressing puzzlement over hobbyists being sold on buying, (what are to me), overpriced, overhyped little pieces of coral. I just don't understand, from a market perspective, why the vendors are allowed and able to set the table. Without the hobbyist, they would not be able to sell anything.

Instead of a discussion I was told that I like to kill corals, have no understanding of the hobby, and suffer from sexual dysfunction. I am 100% sure that these are comments that would not be made to my face, but like so many things on the Internet, anonymity provides safety.

I don't care if you buy frags, don't buy frags, or turn your tank into a terrarium.

And not All Frags are Expensive.

I have seen Frags for as Little as $2.50 (Is that expensive)?

If Frags are alot Colonies are even More because they are Larger.

I am surprised you are not commenting on Colonies being Expensive.

 

[that Reef Guy]

I think you must also keep in mind, 10 years ago, colonies were the way to go. Frags had terrible live to die ratios. But, with advances in the hobby, lighting, pumps, programmable flow patterns, I could go on and on, but you get the point, we are now able to keep those frags alive. So, some of us find it rewarding to "grow your own" so to speak. And now, I have big, beautiful colonies, worth hundreds if not thousands, (for some of the rare stuff) that I grew myself, from frags $100 and under. It's just a changed hobby in many ways. Aquaculture and sustainability have come along way. Just my two cents, and dumb opinion. Lol. Happy reefin

Another Excellent Point.

Perhaps the OP has not tried Frags Recently.

Things Change.

You got to get with the Times.

We Don't Keep Nitrate and Phosphate at Zero Anymore Either.
Lots of us use All Blue Lighting (Blasphemy) !!!!

 

[that Reef Guy]

I defend the shop owner's goals for a simple reason; this entire thread was started on the premise that shop owners are greedily exploiting hobbyists by primarily selling frags, and naive reefkeepers are allowing themselves to be fleeced by buying frags. There's been plenty of defending of the customer's goals in this thread - we all want corals for less than we currently pay for them! But frankly, being dismayed at the price of coral is a losing battle. Don't like the price? Don't buy it. No one is forced to buy frags, colonies or anything else in this hobby. Hobbyist goods are not a need, like food, health care or housing. And however much I might want to buy a Homewrecker frag for $75, the fact remains that there's someone out there who's willing to pay $750 for that same frag. Why should the shop owner feel obligated to sell that coral for less than he could get out of it? Yes, shop owners want to make as much as they can. And shoppers want to pay as little as they can. As you say, both are natural and defensible, yet most of the frag-complainers talk as if it's only the shopkeeper's greed that prevents frags from going to whatever they feel is the appropriate price. In fact, it's the hobbyists themselves who have driven the price up.

If people weren't buying those Homewrecker frags at $750/ea, then they wouldn't exist. Price would come down, some percentage of farmers would decide it wasn't worth the effort, and we'd have fewer corals to buy. But regardless of what you feel a coral frag is worth ("No more than $20"), enough buyers disagree with you to keep the price above that, especially for more desirable specimens. Your own refusal to spend more than $20 on a frag does play into the price of frags - there's a booming market for budget frags. No-name acropora, common zoas, leather corals, xenia, GSP, some acan color morphs, some lobos, favia, war corals, some chalices - there's no shortage of corals to be had, and plenty of them are quite beautiful. But there are also plenty of corals that command a higher price for whatever reason, and I don't see why people complain about their prices. It's like complaining about the existence of $10,000 suits while buying a $50 suit from the bargain rack.

Well Said.

If you don't like the price don't buy it.

But the nice things about Corals is we can frag them and they get more common as time goes on and Prices drop.

I want a Ferrari but the price won't drop but I don't complain.

When I see a Coral that is more than I want to pay that is fine. I will wait the price will drop.

So my point is be thankful if you can't afford a certain coral you will eventually just be patient and wait.

They are not Unattainable like many things are in life.

There are nice corals for every budget.

Might not be the latest and greatest new release but eventually something will replace that and drive the price down.

 

[that Reef Guy]

I totally agree! I have never thought of buying from someone local until I started reading and posting on this thread! I usually just go to my LFS....but I was looking for a certain kind of coral at a reasonable price...my LFS has been over the top expensive lately.....so I posted in my local reef club forum on R2R yesterday. A nice guy sent me a PM....he has what I was looking for and at a great price, and he lives only 10 minutes from my house!!!! Plus more stuff in his frag tank I want to check out! So thanks everyone for that great idea! I just never in all the years of having my tank..... thought of finding local reefers to buy coral from!!!! LOL! [emoji23] [emoji57][emoji2960]

Start Going to Coral Shows (Frag Swaps).

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/2019-frag-swaps-and-shows.510447/

Click on the Link Above for a All the Coral Shows In Order.

They are the Best Places to Buy Coral.

 

[that Reef Guy]

I've never bought from one so I guess I have been boycotting them this whole time lol!

As I mentioned before, buying from your reef club is the way to go. Cheaper and more hardy corals IME.

Don't Forget Most Clubs Host a Yearly Coral Show (Frag Swap) :)

 

[cancun]

I've actually been really surprised how many people live near me (w/in 30 minutes) that have corals available, but some of the people bought their frags at super high prices and now expect to make a profit selling frags that have grown out. It really depends on the person.

That's true! Luckily I have a few people that responded and they live close and they are extremely reasonable. I also found several people within 30 minutes from my house. Plus one guy has my exact tank...a Red Sea Reefer 750 XXL. So it will be cool to see his tank as well.

 

[qstorm]

The Problem is where you are going.

Best Prices will be at a Coral Show (Frag Swap).

That is where I buy ALL of My Coral.

No $50 Shipping
No Dying in the Mail
No Coral Doesn't Look Like the Pic
Cheaper
etc.

I have bought Acros that are $40 to $60 at an LFS for $10 to $20 at a Frag Swap.

But Price is irrelevant since the Stores don't even have these Corals.

LFS Sell Common Ugly Corals usually.

Thank you, I will have to look if they have any in Miami FL or close by.

 

[Brian1f1]

You are so right! I haven't bought frags in years because of the price! I prefer colonies myself. The other day I was at my LFS.....he had just gotten in a Aussie shipment of coral....he was selling gold Aussie torch corals for 250.00 per head!!!!!!

That’s super cheap right now. Should have bought them up.

 

[Brian1f1]

You weren’t buying acros colonies 15+ years ago from your LFS

Oh yes, they were available.

 

[Brian1f1]

Growing your colonies is absolutely great but not when you start with 2 zoas on a plug.

Yes it is. I’ve had 1 and 2 piece zoa frags become 25 to 100 plus polyps in a year.

 

[cancun]

Start Going to Coral Shows (Frag Swaps).

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/2019-frag-swaps-and-shows.510447/

Click on the Link Above for a All the Coral Shows In Order.

They are the Best Places to Buy Coral.

I absolutely will start doing that! Thanks! [emoji16]

 

[mfrumkin]

And not All Frags are Expensive.

I have seen Frags for as Little as $2.50 (Is that expensive)?

If Frags are alot Colonies are even More because they are Larger.

I am surprised you are not commenting on Colonies being Expensive.

Because on a polyp/head basis they are not more expensive. I just had a beautiful zoanthid I purchased from reef2reef delivered today. I paid $65 for 50+ heads a little more than $1.00 per polyp. I also received 6 zoa frags of about 10 heads each that I paid $25 each for. I liked them and I am going to see if they will grow together into a colony. An experiment. But purely from a cost basis, the bigger piece is a better deal. I have a really nice sized acan I purchased from Austin Aqua Farms a couple of years ago. Last week when my rock stack collapsed part of it got covered by sand and died. But just a small part maybe 2%. If it been a frag it all would have died. I would rather go to LiveAquaria and pay $129 for a 4-6 inch favite than $30-$60 for a 1 inch frag. But that's me. You are welcome to do whatever you want.

Granted I am old and not as smart as I used to be. But when the conventional wisdom is, "the hobby can only get frags because of scarcity," and at the same time there are over 24,000 corals listed on Ebay, a vendor in this thread claimed he frags 1,000s of corals every month and there are literally 100,000s of thousands of corals available on the internet, I have to question the conventional wisdom. Walk into Ferrari Beverly Hills and you will pay the sticker price. Why? BECAUSE IT IS A FERRARI!! There aren't 100,000s out there. But google acroporas for sale and you'll find 1,000 or more for sale at any one time. THEY ARE NOT SCARCE! Yet somehow the online retailers have successfully convinced the hobby that they are scarce and valuable. Trust me on this, at some point someone is going to come along and Amazon the online coral trade. Completely disrupt it. The bubble WILL burst and prices will come down. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't someone right now farming corals on a 5-10 year plan to blow up the market. If I was younger and more talented I would take a shot at it myself.

 

[mfrumkin]

20 Heads for $225
4 Heads for $240

Doesn't make any sense.

The 4 Head probably had better colors since the higher price.

A Coral is not a A Coral.

One can be cheap and one can be expensive.

Scientifically it might be the same coral but people pay for color.

The single head polyps he sells come off the same exact mother colony as the blasto I purchased. They are identical. Granted, mine went into a 180gl tank and some of the singles probably went into nanos, but still...

 

[mfrumkin]

Also, Since the Dawn of Time People have been Complaining.

Stop Complaining.

It is not your Money so Don't Worry.

You can Spend your money how you want (On Colonies - nothing wrong with that).

The Rest of Us will Buy Frags (Nothing wrong with that).

And if you DON'T CARE why did you make this post?

I'm not complaining. I'm genuinely curious as to what motivates people to behave in certain ways. I agree. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BUYING FRAGS. I have purchased frags in the past and I'm sure I will in the future. I am installing a 30gl nano reef on Tuesday, (if it is delivered as promised), and I will probably stock it with frags. It is too small to put in large pieces from my 180gl tank. And you write: "The Rest of Us will Buy Frags (Nothing wrong with that)." as though I am the only person looking for larger pieces.

You write: "And if you DON'T CARE why did you make this post?" I don't care what you spend your money on, but I am curious as to what motivates peoples behaviors.

 

[mfrumkin]

Another Excellent Point.

Perhaps the OP has not tried Frags Recently.

Things Change.

You got to get with the Times.

We Don't Keep Nitrate and Phosphate at Zero Anymore Either.
Lots of us use All Blue Lighting (Blasphemy) !!!!

"Perhaps the OP has not tried Frags Recently."

You continue to make assumptions that are not supported by facts. IF, you actually read my posts as opposed to having a knee jerk response, you would see that I do buy frags. That wasn't and isn't the point of this thread.

 

[mfrumkin]

I recommend them because they sell good Corals. Not everyone does (Pests, Fresh Cuts, Don't take Care of their Coral, etc.)

How does your Freshwater Experience matter here?

40 Years - Being that most of that is Probably Freshwater and the fact I know Multiple people with 20 Years Experience that cannot even test their own water. 40 Years is irrelevant. It is Just a Number.

I am serious I know people who started keeping Coral a Month ago that Know more about Coral than People that have been doing it 20 Years.

P.S. whenever somebody says that they have been doing something for X amount of Years it typically means they don't know and they want to overcompensate by saying they have been doing something forever and therefore know. I am not saying you don't know because I do not know you. I am just saying.

Why bless your heart. You're funny. I like you. Misguided perhaps, but genuinely sincere.
You post: "I am not saying you don't know because I do not know you. I am just saying." LOL. I'm not saying, fill in the name, is a crook because I don't know him. I am just saying.

 

[mfrumkin]

1. LOL. Where did I say you "LIKE" to kill Coral?

You made the statement that Frags are Much Likely to Die than Coral.

I would argue just the opposite.

If that is indeed the problem that you are having then I posted some possibilities as to why you may be having that problem?

I never said you liked to Kill Coral (Nobody does).

2. You call me insulting? Perhaps you calling me Captain Obvious is insulting? There are people here at all Levels. Some Experts. Some Set up their First Reef Tank Yesterday. Even though many know that an Aquarium is totally different from the Ocean, the person that started yesterday does not. I have to assume that not everyone knows that. That is why I posted it. You are insulting to those that have not learned that yet.

3. My Data is personal experience as well as the personal experience of thousands of others. It is not "my opinion" it is the consensus of all reefers. Just look at all the other posts about people preferring Aquaculture over Wild. Many have mentioned the higher success level of aquaculture. And if you really believe that may I suggest you quit telling people you have been doing this for 40 years. It just makes you look worse. It didn't take the rest of use 40 years to learn something you don't even know yet.

4. Price is nothing new. People complained about it 10 years ago. So I don't know why you are acting like things changed 5 years ago.

Why bless your little anonymous heart. Do you really and truly believe that your opinion is shared by all reefers? I mean really? I'm the only old ignoramus who doesn't see the TRUTH? The thread was NOT aquacultured vs. wild. I'm all in favor of aquaculture. I know that the corals I just bought today were aquacultured. So please get a grip. And if I buy frags and they die because I don't know how to care for them, ALL THE MORE REASON FOR ME NOT TO BUY FRAGS!! Hey pal, I'm 65 years old. I could drop dead at any time. I have neither the time or the patience to watch an itty bitty frag grow into a garden. Not in this tank. But, as I have stated ad nauseum, (try to read the posts, not just react), I am setting up a 30gl nano for my office and I intend to stock it in part with frags. I set up a tank for my granddaughter and I have encouraged her to buy frags for a variety of reasons.