Worms that survived copper and prazi?

[Nicksfish]

Hi everyone,

I’m having trouble with a fluke like worm that has survived 30 days of cupramine at 0.5 as well as 3 weeks of prazi at double the dose every 4 days, as the first go round didn’t eliminate them. I removed all medicine 3 days ago and saw them flashing again today. Did a freshwater dip and sure enough three long white things come out of a yellow tang.

They look longer than your typical sesame seed shaped fluke and seem indestructible... anyone have any ideas?

Thank you!!!

 

[ichthyogeek]

That's very interesting. You say that they came out of a yellow tang. Does this mean that they came off of the fish' skin? Or out of intestines?

Do you have access to Fenbendazole? It looks like there are some Prazi-resistant worms, and Fenbendazole should work on them according to Humblefish' site:

Medications to keep on hand

These are the bare essentials I recommend for quarantining: Anti-parasitic: Copper Power with a Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702) for testing. Treats Ich & velvet. Anti-parasitic: Metronidazole (e.g. Seachem Metroplex); treats brook & uronema. Dewormer: Prazipro or API General Cure...

humble.fish

 

[Nicksfish]

Thanks @ichthyogeek, I will give that a shot! Seems like the stuff is pretty hard to find for some reason?
They came out of his skin and/or gills. Not stomach or intestines.

In the picture below you can see them protruding from the skin just in front of the scalpel.

 

[vetteguy53081]

likely a worm infestation, although I am not sure which kind although flukes are my guess.Your best bet is to give this fish a FW dip and see if that has any impact. A FW dip should dislodge or at the very least discolor it, if it is a worm. There is a chance this is just Lymphocystis, a common virus.

Freshwater Dip Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes, Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.
Treat By - Filling a bucket with RODI water, and use match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.

Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.

For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.

 

[ichthyogeek]

Thanks @ichthyogeek, I will give that a shot! Seems like the stuff is pretty hard to find for some reason?
They came out of his skin and/or gills. Not stomach or intestines.

In the picture below you can see them protruding from the skin just in front of the scalpel.

Ok, so not an internal parasite. As an alternative to fenbendazole, I recall that using formalin/formaldehyde can also work, but you have to be incredibly careful, since it /is/ a carcinogen, and you have to follow proper dosing carefully. I believe that you do a 2-8 minute freshwater bath, and then put them in a 45 minute diluted formalin/formaldehyde bath, and there are protocols somewhere that are far more exact.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks @ichthyogeek, I will give that a shot! Seems like the stuff is pretty hard to find for some reason?
They came out of his skin and/or gills. Not stomach or intestines.

In the picture below you can see them protruding from the skin just in front of the scalpel.

Interesting shot - was this take with the fish swimming normally in the tank, or had the flukes been partially dislodged by a FW dip? Usually flukes hang tight to the body of the fish, not waving in the breeze like that.

What other fish do you have in the tank?

The close-up of the two worms is ALMOST close enough for me to tell if these are Gyrodactylus flukes or Piscicola leeches or Turbellarians. Could you see eyespots on them? Two of four black eyespots at one end?

Regarding treatment (assuming they are Gyrodactylus) - copper won't touch these. Praziquantel *should* work because these are livebearers and don't have a tough egg stage to get past. As you've seen - freshwater dips help control, but not eliminate them, the dips do buy you time though.

Regarding the prazi resistant worms that were mentioned: actually, what happens is that after you've dosed it a few times, a heterotrophic bacteria grows in your tank that consume prazi as a food source. Then, subsequent dosing just feeds the prazi to the bacteria (sigh).

You might have to use prazi at 4 mg/l, the trouble is that home aquarium medications don't tell you the dose, so that only works if you have the actual pure drug.

Formalin dips, like FW baths, will help, but if you put the fish back into the same tank, they just get reinfected.

Jay

 

[Nicksfish]

@Jay Hemdal - thank you for the response! That was insightful and I was unaware of the bacteria that feeds on the prazi! Would it make more sense to switch them to a new tank with every prazi dose similar to TTM since this seems to be resistant Does hypo + prazi work for resistant worms? I also ordered some benzadole per @ichthyogeek recommendation, which I have seen recommended on a few other threads involving flukes that aren’t gone after prazi treatments.

The picture of the tang is just normally swimming, after the medicine has been removed from the water and the parasite has taken hold again.
He is currently in a qt tank with a humu trigger and a toby puffer. The others don’t show the actual parasite as well as the tang does, but they flash against the pvc hiding places and the bottom.

In regards to the worms from the dip, I can’t quite see if they have eyes, but I will see if I can get a better look on the next dip.

 

[ichthyogeek]

Just double checking: bendazole? or fenbendazole? The two may be similar, but are not alike.

Not Jay, but in general, if you do a dip, you should transfer the fish to a new/clean/sterile tank, as putting the fish back in will just reinfect it. Doing a transfer every time you do a prazi dose sounds like it would work to me, but do make sure that you sterilize the buckets afterwards using something that will kill 100% of everything, like bleach!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal - thank you for the response! That was insightful and I was unaware of the bacteria that feeds on the prazi! Would it make more sense to switch them to a new tank with every prazi dose similar to TTM since this seems to be resistant Does hypo + prazi work for resistant worms? I also ordered some benzadole per @ichthyogeek recommendation, which I have seen recommended on a few other threads involving flukes that aren’t gone after prazi treatments.

The picture of the tang is just normally swimming, after the medicine has been removed from the water and the parasite has taken hold again.
He is currently in a qt tank with a humu trigger and a toby puffer. The others don’t show the actual parasite as well as the tang does, but they flash against the pvc hiding places and the bottom.

In regards to the worms from the dip, I can’t quite see if they have eyes, but I will see if I can get a better look on the next dip.

Yes - dip and move to a clean tank is very effective as long as you maintain good water quality.
Re: hypo and prazi- no to that, again the worms are not resistant, it is the bacteria. Hypo reduces the amount of water a fish drinks, therefore reducing the amount of prazi ingested, and that is an important secondary route to treat the fish.
Jay