Wrasse question

[WhitePanther93]

Here’s an odd question. Can a solo non dominant flasher wrasse change back into a female?

A while back I purchased a male mccoskers flasher wrasse and when I first got him he would flash at my other fish to try and show his dominance. Nowadays his tail fin is a bit torn up and I never see any dorsal fin extension. He’s still eating so i don’t think he’s sick. And he’s still swimming around pretty actively. He’s definitely not top dog in the tank. But he’s not overly bullied either (that I’ve seen)

 

[Sean Clark]

Here’s an odd question. Can a solo non dominant flasher wrasse change back into a female?

A while back I purchased a male mccoskers flasher wrasse and when I first got him he would flash at my other fish to try and show his dominance. Nowadays his tail fin is a bit torn up and I never see any dorsal fin extension. He’s still eating so i don’t think he’s sick. And he’s still swimming around pretty actively. He’s definitely not top dog in the tank. But he’s not overly bullied either (that I’ve seen)

I believe wrasse are what is called a sequential hermaphrodite; meaning that they can change sex once in their lifetime. I could be wrong though.

 

[WhitePanther93]

I believe wrasse are what is called a sequential hermaphrodite; meaning that they can change sex once in their lifetime. I could be wrong though.

The way i was told is that they’re basically the reverse of clownfish. Everyone starts of female the the top dog becomes male.

 

[Sean Clark]

The way i was told is that they’re basically the reverse of clownfish. Everyone starts of female the the top dog becomes male.

Once a female changes to a male they stay that way though. They can't go back (at least that is the way I understand it). Maybe @SaltyT or @i cant think could answer this more definitely.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

If they've fully transitioned (gone from initial phase female to initial phase male to terminal phase male) then they'll stay as terminal phase males. If they've only transitioned part of the way (from initial phase female to initial phase male) then they can pause/reverse the transition, but - to the best of my knowledge - they'll only do so if there is another terminal phase male introduced to the group that 'outranks' them (so to speak).

My source:

https://cob.silverchair-cdn.com/cob/content_public/journal/jeb/221/23/10.1242_jeb.180901/7/jeb180901.pdf?Expires=1655428099&Signature=zkcJTCUCR0mbLjuO~66Fkliwd8KN4Xk7VPlAAbw855DrQtLPYRVTZvX9fYgkXgnxjIQaAnz4OCWVfRzPZF9S57oEpbetT3MbeNefdS~N~Tdew7BtW06VrVlR6mX6USm0sJMXi9sHDe0F0Yxm9DMDeSRqJn~5er4IlJRLzRgcZhG42qji8rqYQVS92qvURp0JQC6-qWySYQ47LZGDVUkDJp8OrUItMUXffc~ieqMfck7xr0I7qWaOtuCgXxPYh-yVLEIB395cNkhBVc8687dHYM--cOHRy49kMaHpGP7WRsCH-Nqfm15SXiEDrPaY0QisgZNUbvElskKob9YEQSWv2A__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIE5G5CRDK6RD3PGA

 

[i cant think]

Wrasses cannot revert from male to female no matter what. Even if there’s a male in there that outranks them they will not revert to female.

This is why it’s not recommended to ever keep two of the same species of Cirrhilabrus even if they’re a pair. In the wild, there are many transitional males but there’s also many females which splits up the aggression from the “Super Male”.

Female Cirrhilabrus and Paracheilinus wrasses ALL become male in captivity, even with a transitional male of the same species in the tank, or with a terminal male in the tank, female Cirrhilabrus and Paracheilinus will still become male. Terminal Male wrasses can lose colour if given no reason to display full colourations though, this is the same across all the genera.

They can pause the transition and almost “Slow it down” however they cannot stop it and revert completely.

 

[i cant think]

Here’s an odd question. Can a solo non dominant flasher wrasse change back into a female?

A while back I purchased a male mccoskers flasher wrasse and when I first got him he would flash at my other fish to try and show his dominance. Nowadays his tail fin is a bit torn up and I never see any dorsal fin extension. He’s still eating so i don’t think he’s sick. And he’s still swimming around pretty actively. He’s definitely not top dog in the tank. But he’s not overly bullied either (that I’ve seen)

What is the tank size?
Preferably dimensions

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Wrasses cannot revert from male to female no matter what. Even if there’s a male in there that outranks them they will not revert to female.

This is why it’s not recommended to ever keep two of the same species of Cirrhilabrus even if they’re a pair. In the wild, there are many transitional males but there’s also many females which splits up the aggression from the “Super Male”.

Female Cirrhilabrus and Paracheilinus wrasses ALL become male in captivity, even with a transitional male of the same species in the tank, or with a terminal male in the tank, female Cirrhilabrus and Paracheilinus will still become male. Terminal Male wrasses can lose colour if given no reason to display full colourations though, this is the same across all the genera.

They can pause the transition and almost “Slow it down” however they cannot stop it and revert completely.

If you read through the article I linked above, you’ll notice why I made the distinction between initial phase and terminal phase (A.K.A. Supermale) - in the initial phase, they have not fully transitioned, and the process can be stopped/reversed (i.e. they won’t develop male coloration or functional male gonads, and their behavior will revert to female wrasse behaviors). Once they have fully transitioned (reached Terminal Phase), however, they stay male irreversibly. Some of them in the wild do become “transitional” (initial phase) males and stay that way, but when the Terminal Phase male is removed from the group and re-added a few days later, at least some of the transitioning-females-turned-initial-phase-males revert back to fully female. So, yes, they can change back, but only if they haven’t completed transitioning.

That said, you are correct that wrasses will transition to male in our tanks even if there is a Terminal Phase male present - from my understanding the change happens because of certain stressors triggering a few different chemicals in the fish, and that leads me to believe that something about our tanks makes them subpar environments from a stress standpoint for the wrasses, but that’s another matter.

Edited to add: this might just be a terminology misunderstanding on my part (i.e. the fish might not be considered initial phase male until they’ve fully transitioned), if so, I apologize and i can’t think would be correct.

 

[i cant think]

If you read through the article I linked above, you’ll notice why I made the distinction between initial phase and terminal phase (A.K.A. Supermale) - in the initial phase, they have not fully transitioned, and the process can be stopped/reversed (i.e. they won’t develop male coloration or functional male gonads, and their behavior will revert to female wrasse behaviors). Once they have fully transitioned (reached Terminal Phase), however, they stay male irreversibly. Some of them in the wild do become “transitional” (initial phase) males and stay that way, but when the Terminal Phase male is removed from the group and re-added a few days later, at least some of the transitioning-females-turned-initial-phase-males revert back to fully female. So, yes, they can change back, but only if they haven’t completed transitioning.

That said, you are correct that wrasses will transition to male in our tanks even if there is a Terminal Phase male present - from my understanding the change happens because of certain stressors triggering a few different chemicals in the fish, and that leads me to believe that something about our tanks makes them subpar environments from a stress standpoint for the wrasses, but that’s another matter.

Edited to add: this might just be a terminology misunderstanding on my part (i.e. the fish might not be considered initial phase male until they’ve fully transitioned), if so, I apologize and i can’t think would be correct.

I’ve always seen Initial as being the same as Terminal just two different names.
Transitional is the middle between Terminal/Initial Male and Female.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

I’ve always seen Initial as being the same as Terminal just two different names.
Transitional is the middle between Terminal/Initial Male and Female.

This really got me wondering because I thought I had read there was a difference a while back but I couldn’t remember where. So, looking up the difference again, here’s what I found:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/protogyny

This one basically states that initial phase males are males that look like and behave like females, but are actually males and will attempt to essentially indirectly breed.

https://sta.uwi.edu/fst/lifesciences/sites/default/files/lifesciences/documents/ogatt/Thalassoma_bifasciatum%20-%20Bluehead%20Wrasse.pdf

This one’s “Population Ecology” section says the following; “Removal of terminal phase males temporarily disturbs the male to female equilibrium within the population. Initial phase males and females alter their physical colour, latter is colour and sex, in order to become terminal males to balance the male to female ratio. Initial phase females display terminal male behaviour within minutes; bodily colours are changed in a day, becoming distinctly visual in four days and swift transition from ovaries to testes, producing functional, mature sperm in less than eight days (Warner and Swearer, 1991).”

Last one:

Wrasse - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

www.sciencedirect.com

The quote from here - “Terminal-phase individuals (supermales) arise from either irreversible sex change in a female, or irreversible morph change in an initial-phase male (Figure 1(b)). In addition to the striking color dimorphisms, there are dramatic differences in body size, reproductive behavior, and fecundity (e.g., Petersen et al., 1992; Warner and Schultz, 1992).”

So, there is a difference between Initial Phase Male (apparently also known occasionally as “sneaker males” because they retain the juvenile/female coloration and behavior while trying to “sneak in” mating) and Terminal Phase Male (supermales), but I’m not entirely sure how Initial Phase Males occur (i.e. I’m not sure if they’re born male or if they started transitioning from female to male then stopped - I’ll have to do more research on this).

Either way, maybe a better way to phrase what I was getting at earlier would be - female wrasse transitioning to male can stop/reverse the process as long as it hasn’t gone too far, as was demonstrated by my initial article (I’m not entirely sure when they can no longer reverse it, it might be like 50% transitioned, 20%, 90%, IDK).

Edit: just adding for the OP, the terminal male thing above means that if you wrasse is showing male coloration, it is - irreversibly - male. As I can’t think stated above, though, stress can cause discoloration for you fish (and behavior changes too).

 

[WhitePanther93]

What is the tank size?
Preferably dimensions

It’s a 60 cube 24x24x24

 

[i cant think]

It’s a 60 cube 24x24x24

That’s why he won’t be flashing, the smallest flashers need 4’ of swim room to truly spread their fins and be happy.
Actually the smallest of the common wrasses (Cirrhilabrus, Halichoeres, Macropharyngodon ect) need 3’ minimum in the long run. Obviously for a year or so they can do alright in a smaller tank but it’s not ideal.