★I am ALIVE★ (PLEASE READ) ★Tank almost ★Electrocuted★ me★ ( GFCI never Tripped ...MISSING GROUND PROBE) Passing on Lesson to All Reefers

[alton]

It does not take much of a grounding conductor to trip a GFCI. Anything is better than nothing. For some reason people think if you have a GFCI receptacle installed you will not get shocked. They keep you from getting enough current that can kill you, not shock you.

 

[Brew12]

how serious is it if I get a small electrocution when my arm rubs against my light while also in the tank water? Been like this for over a year.

Just to address the easy part... and electrocution is a fatality caused by an electrical shock. Otherwise, it is a little harder to say how serious it is. If it is a little static or induced voltage being discharged, it isn't serious at all. If there is a failure in an electrical component it could end up being very serious.

 

[Bryknicks]

Just to address the easy part... and electrocution is a fatality caused by an electrical shock. Otherwise, it is a little harder to say how serious it is. If it is a little static or induced voltage being discharged, it isn't serious at all. If there is a failure in an electrical component it could end up being very serious.

Similar question. I have the reefbreeders photon V2 on my tank with the metal legs. If my arm is in the tank and accidentally touches the metal leg I get a nice shock. My display only has two gyres, my skimmer is DC, my return pump is DC, and I do not need to run a heater or chiller on my system. Is there a possible fault in my lighting system or is this normal due to the metal legs holding up an electrical component? Would a ground probe work in this situation if I put it in the sump?

 

[Plecosam]

It does not take much of a grounding conductor to trip a GFCI. Anything is better than nothing. For some reason people think if you have a GFCI receptacle installed you will not get shocked. They keep you from getting enough current that can kill you, not shock you.

I do not think you understand what a grounding conductor is for, no offense they are not for tripping earth leakage breakers.

 

[Plecosam]

Similar question. I have the reefbreeders photon V2 on my tank with the metal legs. If my arm is in the tank and accidentally touches the metal leg I get a nice shock. My display only has two gyres, my skimmer is DC, my return pump is DC, and I do not need to run a heater or chiller on my system. Is there a possible fault in my lighting system or is this normal due to the metal legs holding up an electrical component? Would a ground probe work in this situation if I put it in the sump?

You have a problem an earth probe will only mask the problem, you need to work out what is energizing your tank, there must be an insulation breakdown somewhere.

It is not normal to touch something metal and receive a shock.

 

[Bryknicks]

The insulation break would have to be something in the tank, correct? I would only assume it would have to be one of the gyres if that is the case.

 

[Plecosam]

Yeah for sure, or something touching the metal.

 

[DaneGer21]

Let me start by saying that I did not read the whole thread and I am not an electrician but why would a GFI not work without a ground probe because my bathtub doesn’t have a ground probe.

Is it because your sea swirl isn’t a three prong plug?

 

[Brew12]

Similar question. I have the reefbreeders photon V2 on my tank with the metal legs. If my arm is in the tank and accidentally touches the metal leg I get a nice shock. My display only has two gyres, my skimmer is DC, my return pump is DC, and I do not need to run a heater or chiller on my system. Is there a possible fault in my lighting system or is this normal due to the metal legs holding up an electrical component? Would a ground probe work in this situation if I put it in the sump?

It's hard to say without knowing the cause of the shock. If you have static from seawater running through PVC then it could fix it. If it is an induced voltage from wiring in or around your tank, it could fix it. If you have a piece of failed/failing equipment and don't use a GFCI also, it won't help and could make things worse.

 

[Brew12]

Let me start by saying that I did not read the whole thread and I am not an electrician but why would a GFI not work without a ground probe because my bathtub doesn’t have a ground probe.

Is it because your sea swirl isn’t a three prong plug?

A GFCI will work without a ground probe. The use of a ground probe can make a GFCI trip sooner.

If you have a cord that has a bare copper spot exposed plugged into a GFCI, but that bare spot isn't touching anything, the GFCI will not trip. If you are barefoot and touch that bare spot then the GFCI will trip protecting you.
Our glass/acrylic tanks and sumps are excellent insulators. If you have bare copper exposed in the tank it will energize the water, but the glass will act as a barrier keeping current from flowing to ground until you put your hand in the tank (or something similar). The ground probe insures there will be a path to ground as soon as a fault condition occurs, tripping the GFCI immediately.

 

[Medici]

thread showed up at the front page and turned into an shock confession

 

[WallyB]

Hey @Brew12, great dicussion you are leading here. Thanks for your input. And Everyone else participating.

I have a question, since I just discovered this recently by Accident. (LAST WEEK)

I was going to re-active my MH Fixture. It runs off an External Ballast.
I can provide photos, in case I'm not clear enough.

This ALL MEtal Housing Light Fixtured hangs off my Basement Ceiling. From Wood (So the hanging wires are not Grounded to Earth)
The fixture is suspended by two Steel Wires.

I want the fixture a little to Left, so I attached a wire to the two hanging wires, to pull everything over by about 1"
The Wire to pull the hanging wires sideways, I attached to my Basement DUCT (Which is Metal and Earth Ground).

As I touched that wire to the Fixture Hanging Wire. I saw Sparcs. Arcs. Only when touching, or running wire to wire contact.
That freaked me out.
So I pulled out a volt meter and also tested Current between my DUCT and Fixture Housing (which is Grounded to the Ballast Ground), and got 0 volts. Also got 0 Current, down to milli amp range.

I have no idea how I could see sparcs, arc and not register any voltage.
EVERYTHING IS ON GFCI, and GROUNDED TOO.

** I DID not try touching the DUCT and the Fixture (after noticing this), but I'm sure I did that many times, plus I stand on Concrete whenever I touch or adjust the fixture, and never got a zap before ****

I checked that the MH Ballast Wire OUTPUT Ground is connected and has connectivity to my Fixture Housing (ALL GOOD)

I have two of these Modern MH Electronic Ballasts, and both do the same.
Also I check the 110V Side GROUND of the Ballast, if it's connected to the High Voltage Side Ground. IT IS NOT (so it must be insulated with a Transformer)

Any Idea what's happening here. (My Guess is some kind of High Voltage Induction. High Frequency).
I plan to call Manufacterer.

 

[DaneGer21]

Hey @Brew12, great dicussion you are leading here. Thanks for your input. And Everyone else participating.

I have a question, since I just discovered this recently by Accident. (LAST WEEK)

I was going to re-active my MH Fixture. It runs off an External Ballast.
I can provide photos, in case I'm not clear enough.

This ALL MEtal Housing Light Fixtured hangs off my Basement Ceiling. From Wood (So the hanging wires are not Grounded to Earth)
The fixture is suspended by two Steel Wires.

I want the fixture a little to Left, so I attached a wire to the two hanging wires, to pull everything over by about 1"
The Wire to pull the hanging wires sideways, I attached to my Basement DUCT (Which is Metal and Earth Ground).

As I touched that wire to the Fixture Hanging Wire. I saw Sparcs. Arcs. Only when touching, or running wire to wire contact.
That freaked me out.
So I pulled out a volt meter and also tested Current between my DUCT and Fixture Housing (which is Grounded to the Ballast Ground), and got 0 volts. Also got 0 Current, down to milli amp range.

I have no idea how I could see sparcs, arc and not register any voltage.
EVERYTHING IS ON GFCI, and GROUNDED TOO.

** I DID not try touching the DUCT and the Fixture (after noticing this), but I'm sure I did that many times, plus I stand on Concrete whenever I touch or adjust the fixture, and never got a zap before ****

I checked that the MH Ballast Wire OUTPUT Ground is connected and has connectivity to my Fixture Housing (ALL GOOD)

I have two of these Modern MH Electronic Ballasts, and both do the same.
Also I check the 110V Side GROUND of the Ballast, if it's connected to the High Voltage Side Ground. IT IS NOT (so it must be insulated with a Transformer)

Any Idea what's happening here. (My Guess is some kind of High Voltage Induction. High Frequency).
I plan to call Manufacterer.

I have actually heard that some homes duct work can be tied to their homes ground electrode system. Maybe something else is going on from the homes side of things?

 

[alton]

I do not think you understand what a grounding conductor is for, no offense they are not for tripping earth leakage breakers.

According to Brew the case of the heater is bonded to the grounding conductor, therefore providing a grounding means for the GFCI to trip if a current leak is detected just like a grounding probe. And why a grounding probe is not required when using a titanium heater. No different when we install a drinking fountain on a GFCI and the case is grounded. As far as the light fixture giving the shock, many times it is providing the grounding means. If you are working at your tank you are mostly insulated wearing shoes, now you touch the frame of the light and it provides the ground.
And Brew although you would think being barefoot on a tile floor and putting your hand in a bucket with a shorted power head would trip a GFCI? NOT, it was a bad shock and something very stupid I did as a test many years ago. Of course when I dropped a grounding probe in it tripped immediately. I have been in construction for about 44 years. The first half of those safety was unheard of, but today safety is number one. One of the dumbest and dangerous things a fellow worker did was strip out a #12 wire connected to a 277 volt circuit, crawl up on a ladder and place his tongue on it while energized. The trick was his ladder was well insulated with rubber tape on the feet, so no ground, no shock although extremely stupid. Like I said in my earlier post a GFCI will work with or with out a ground. If there is no grounding means, you become the grounding means.

 

[Plecosam]

No offense, but either your fellow worker is an idiot or that story is not true, I am thinking the later. I am glad you do not work in the HV industry, but good luck, I have no dog in this fight.

Please do not quote me, I do not care what others do in their tanks or whether or not they wear shoes or if these shoes provide enough insulation resistance to protect their life. I will not be grounding my tank, but if you want to go for it, no concern of mine.

If you think a grounding conductor is purely to trip earth leakage it might be time to drag out your books.

 

[alton]

It is not purely to ground a GFCI! But in the case of our aquariums having it take the short in case of a piece of faulty equipment is much more important than crashing your aquarium as Brew has shown. If you want to call me a liar go for it. And I have read books, one in particular since 1987 it is called the NEC.

 

[Brew12]

I have two of these Modern MH Electronic Ballasts, and both do the same.
Also I check the 110V Side GROUND of the Ballast, if it's connected to the High Voltage Side Ground. IT IS NOT (so it must be insulated with a Transformer)

I'm far from an expert on MH fixtures, but grounds should never go through a transformer. Are you sure the output side of the ballast actually has it's own ground wire?

Any Idea what's happening here. (My Guess is some kind of High Voltage Induction. High Frequency).

This is definitely possible. You might be able to see it on a very high quality meter if it is what you have going on. It could be a capacitive/inductive effect, also, if it only arcs once and then needs time to arc again. It could also be static buildup from air moving through the vent.

 

[WallyB]

I have actually heard that some homes duct work can be tied to their homes ground electrode system. Maybe something else is going on from the homes side of things?

You know I was suspecting the Ballast, and both are fairly new. Before I put them into Boxes, they were still under Warranty.

But you raise a point I never thought of. What if the issue is the DUCT/House something.
I need to investigate further.

 

[WallyB]

I'm far from an expert on MH fixtures, but grounds should never go through a transformer. Are you sure the output side of the ballast actually has it's own ground wire?

I'll post a photo. It's A Ground Wire 100% (Green with a Lug a End.). The Special Cord from the Ballast Output is 3 Prong that Plugs into the 3 Prong Ballast Output Receptacle..

I didn't mention. This Fixture Had a Built in Double Magnetic Ballast. Used to weigh a TON.
I gutted it, and added the two External Electronic Ballasts. Light as a feather, no Heat too.
The Fixture is Hollow, and just two MH Bulb's inside, on Ceramic Insulated Bulb Holders. ((ALL Commercial Products, Not DIY))

This is definitely possible. You might be able to see it on a very high quality meter if it is what you have going on. It could be a capacitive/inductive effect, also, if it only arcs once and then needs time to arc again. It could also be static buildup from air moving through the vent.

This is not a one time sparc. Nor does it discharge and take time to charge up.
This is a continuous sparc. Maybe it is discharging and charging really quickly.
I'll shoot a video.

But I'm going to check that Duct!!

 

[Monice]

I thought I would freshly post this in the New Reef Tank Beginners Section.

I'm about to fix things after experiencing dangerous situation with my Tank Setup. (but wanted to share this while it's fresh in my head)

I'm an Electrical/Electronic Computer System Engineer and I know a bit about Electrician Stuff too (but little about how GFCI outlets work)

I had some luck today as I prepared to put both my arms into my Tank to clean up and add corals.

During Prep I spilled some water as I was preparing and my rubber Crocks got a bit wet, so it connected my feet electrically to my Basement Floor (which is a raised subfloor, but enough water spilled to also drip onto the Concrete Floor (GROUND).

I was scooping some more water using a jug when I felt a tingle at my finger tips.
Then I touch the tip of my finger to tank water and felt a much stronger electrical pulse.

So I got my AC volt meter and with one end on Ground (Concrete Floor), I touched THE (+) lead of my volt meter to water and I got 96 Volts reading.

THE TANK was High Voltage and Dangerous!!! Could kill !!!

I got insulated goves. Put on my best insulated shoes, and had son at the Main House breaker while I tested things.

With the Voltmeter on tank, I started one by one pulling plugs (I have many)….
Almost no plugs left in outlets, and after moving things around, ( the VOLTGE rose to 110Volts).

Finally two plugs left, I removed the Next one and VOLTAGE went away. I found the Fault.
It was my sea swirl water oscillator. It was wet and dripping from inside. Inside I know is a small AC motor and there are O-Ring in connectors, so they wore out. Probably a drip inside.

That was puzzling since I have a GFCI outlet and a ground probe. So I looked from my Ground Probe which was in Sump.
But it was missing. It fell out and was behind sump. Possibly jarred loose during maintenance.
I put back the Ground Probe, and plugged in the Faulty Sea Swirl (RIGHT AWAY the GFCI protection SHUT EVERYTHING OFF).

I've learned a similar Lesson before, so my tanks have always been protected by GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Intertupt OUTLETS).
What I learned a few years ago, is GFCI doesn't always work, if there is no Ground Probe to Ground the Tank water.

Over the years, pumps, heaters have cracked and caused High Voltage in my systems, and most of the time GFCI would trip and turn off AC power (with GFCI and Ground Probe).

What I ALSO learned a few years ago is an Urchin chewed thru a wire insulation and stripped the AC Wire to copper. That electrified my tank but since the Heater Like most heater don't have a ground pin plug (ie 3 Prong), the tank was 110Volts. I had no ground probe, and GFCI didn't trip since HEater had no ground to trigger GFCI.

GFCI outlet don't work if TANK isn't grounded, and HOT wire voltage electrifies the Tank.
If your (hands to feet) become the ground CONNECTOR, it may trip the GFCI. BUT will it work, will if be fast enough, that is something I don't plan on testing.

So I'm about to BOLT/Tie-Wrap that ground PROBE back into my setup. All my ground probes since I have one is each sump and one in each tank (except one, which I will also now add).

Hope you all have a Safe Reefing Experience for many years.


If you have "NO GROUND PROBE" on your setup you run a risk of a ZAP or electrocution.

I you have "NO GFCI on your SETUP" You may DIE SOME DAY (or maybe someone you care about)


----------------- NOV 26 ---- UPDATE --- 3 DAYS LATER -----------------

Did a video Testing how GFCI vs GFCI with Ground Probes (Works and Does Not work)

** When a Heater Fails, AC Pump Fails, or Urchin Chews up your AC Power Cord **

** THIS IS ALSO not just your Tank/SUMP...Applies to where you mix up water, and heat it and can have spills **



More discussion below about GFCI, and Probes.

Wow! Glad you are ok and thanks for this important notice! As a brand new reefer I didn't even think of adding a grounding probe to my tank. Just ordered on Amazon.