A Huge Problem IMO as to why tanks crash and we have so many problems with just about everything.

[Paul B]

Love your post @Paul B. As you might already know I have been keeping reef tanks for 35+ years and I have been Scuba Diving for 40 years.

So your a Geezer like me.

My experience has been that the best looking and healthy corals are found in the most pristine water.
So while I think a "dirty Tank" is great for FOWLR use I am not so certain I would go that route with a tank that has SPS and LPS corals in it.

I don't mean "dirty" water. I mean water that is aged, not dirty. Yes, I know I said water was to clean but I mean water that is not new ASW right from our RO/DI unit as it doesn't have the right compliment of bacteria and natural substances from algae and other things. That is why new water is not healthy.
My tank water is pristine and very clean. Most of the diving I did in my life was in New York where the visibility is measured in inches, but I have dove all over the world and in Tahiti where it is all SPS you can see the bottom very clear at 120'

I also agree with a many of your concepts...except I will say that our tanks lack something that the ocean has in it's favor: Scale.

A fish that might come across ich in the ocean will have to fight it off and move on with his fish life. In our tanks, that same fish will then be re-infected again and again and again with greater and greater numbers. One cyst in the ocean landing on a fish is bad luck, but there is no escaping the countless cysts swirling around our tanks once things really take off.

WE can't help the scale but I hear that all the time about the parasites re infecting the fish because they have no place to go and it is a good theory. However, I find it not to be true. If it were, my tank would not exist. I think, and I can't read the mind of the parasites, that the fishes immune system will grow to as strong as it has to be to overcome a greater number of parasites. Remember, the parasites will constantly get weaker in a tank because they will be affected by the antiparisitic substances in the fishes slime so they can't grow to immense numbers, unless you quarantine or medicate to the point where the fish has no defenses and the parasites will take over and consume the fish.

As we read the quarantine threads look at how many fish die or get re infected while in or just out of copper. A fish like that is a prime target for a parasite, but a fish in my tank can't be infected so the parasites dwindle in numbers as they have been doing for decades.

Of course I want some parasites in there so the fishes immune system can recognize them.
Some of my fish are almost 30 years old and I add fish all the time as they die of old age or jumping out.
If the parasites grew to numbers to overwhelm my tank, I would not have a tank and I never lose fish to them.

These guys lived to be 12 years old and spawned constantly while never showing even one spot.

For most people, their best bet to keeping fish alive beyond the first week or two is treating things like ich/flukes/velvet with a more hands-on approach. I think one thing that has changed over the past 30 years is that more and more fish are coming in with truly bad issues. EVERY fish I've gotten over the past few months has had flukes.

I also hear that all the time and I got this little copperband a few months ago. As all my fish I put him right in my tank. She did have flukes and seemed uncomfortable for a week or so. Shaking her head and scratching and I knew she had flukes.
I could have fresh water dipped her but that is very stressful. If she was really bad I may have done that.
After those two weeks she is fine and eats everything. Inquisitive and bright eyed. My last one died at about 10 years old.




I believe the fish also becomes immune to flukes as this fish seems to indicate.
In the last year I may have added 7 or 8 fish. They may have had flukes, I don't know or really care as they are all still fine and will probably live for many years with no scratching or signs of anything but health. I think it is the lack of stress and what I call proper food.

This is all just my opinion of course, but for some reason my fish get over all of these things that seem to crash tanks and I 'think" it's the right combination of bacteria, parasites and viruses that the fish was born in an ocean with and needs to stay healthy.

Fish in the sea get flukes, but they don't die from them because the fluke leaves due to the irritation of the fishes immunity and looks for another fish where it has the same problem.

I'd be very interested in hearing more about your feeding practices, and how you supplement the diets with which type of live foods etc. I want to do much more of that and I could not agree more that those foods are the key to keeping these little guys happy.

I have a very long thread on hear about my practices but I can re hash it later after this thread winds down.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Anecdotal at best but I am running two tanks currently. My nano is very much based on the naturalist methods and my 40B more strict in what I put in it and QT’d. Honestly I think both methods work equally well and should be assessed during setup. I always worry about a copper resistant ich or parasite like the Bloat issues that cropped up on African Cichlids 20
years back.

 

[Paul B]

secondarily, for sandbed claims its important to state the fact that there are massive problems with them across forums when left unchecked, when dealing in per 100 a large majority of the hands off sandbeds are the ones seeking out our sand rinse thread to fix them, by tap water rinsing the entire sandbed at once. the total cleanliness fixes the issues, it doesnt cause more, we're out to 35 pages of work examples.

although at-home systems occasionally deep cleaned like when you moved homes, and ran as RUGF which is not like any other sandbed on this board might run long term without much extra help, the ones we see on forums do not--per 100. *am aware apparently the masses do sandbeds wrong and there is where the help is needed.

After trying many things I settled on a reverse undergravel filter and gravel. I started my tank with beach sand which was a disaster, then I went to large, driveway gravel, then to what I have now, dolomite with a regular UG filter, (another disaster) and finally to a gravel system with a RUGF which has been running problem free for about 45 years. I see no detritus on it, it has never crashed, I don't have to replace it and the main thing is that because oxygen flows all through it so it is full of life all the way through.

Life brings life and that is the food chain and I like to keep small fish like gobies and pipefish so they need to hunt all day so they can eat with no help from me. I don't feed my smaller pipefish, ruby red dragonettes or mandarins. They find their own food. That is due to my gravel and reverse undergravel filter which as you said, no one uses. I don't know why.

 

[SMSREEF]

We humans are now experimenting with transferring poop from healthy people to sick people.

I didn't make that up.

Yes, it’s true. Many people with antibiotic resistant C. difficile infection can be effectively cured with a stool transplant from someone with healthy bacteria in their gut.
These transplants actually have become the standard of care for recurrent C diff infections.

Mud transplants for tanks with microbial imbalance or even as maintenance does sound like a very sound and natural approach.

 

[jeffrey holloway]

Good Post.

 

[ahiggins]

I love this @Paul B
For years I was most successful with dirty tanks, the ones where I couldn’t keep nitrates down to save my life lol didn’t look pristine, had a little algae in there and it was thriving.
Seems the only problem I run into is when it’s too clean.

 

[siggy]

What can an average hobbyist do/feed to improve the diversity in their tanks, and not do?

Coast Guard doesn't count .

Cub Scouts ?

 

[littlefishy]

Paul, I read your posts here years before I started my 10 g this Feb. Thought you were just a crank or troll at first, but have come to adopt most of your ideas. My little nuvo 10 has live rock, nsw, and the back 3 chambers full of nothing but rock. Been thinking of adding an inch of mud to the middle chamber. No algae except bubble algea so far. Only fish jumped the 1st week due to the emerald crab.
My question is how you would apply your theories to a nano. Anything different?
Also, as a lifelong fisherman, fish do get sick and die of disease/parasites. I see it in baitfish schools all the time, there is always that 1% that is wobbling/crooked spine/covered in spots. Nature eliminating the weak. It's what a lot of lures imitate, easy pickings for gamefish.

 

[Paul B]

Anecdotal at best but I am running two tanks currently. My nano is very much based on the naturalist methods and my 40B more strict in what I put in it and QT’d. Honestly I think both methods work equally well and should be assessed during setup. I always worry about a copper resistant ich or parasite like the Bloat issues that cropped up on African Cichlids 20
years back.

Both methods do work, that is proven. But how many old, quarantined tanks do you know of where the fish are spawning and dying of old age?
I only know of one, My friend Humblefish. But he is very knowledgeable about fish diseases and keeps up with his fish with medication if needed.

I have no need of medication, quarantine tanks or hospital tanks. Virtually all my paired fish constantly spawn and unless they jump out, get bullied or I stupidly bought a fish I can't properly feed, they always die of old age with no help from me. My tank makes a lot of it's own food and sponges which are growing on every bit of real estate keep the water crystal clear and make it almost impossible to over feed.
I also don't think parasites could become resistant to copper because a parasite is a crustacean and copper is the chemical in their blood that carries oxygen. It's part of their make up. In us, and vertebrates we use iron which makes our blood red. I think copper will always kill parasites, but I am guessing.

Speaking of food, I feel that shellfish like clams are the best thing by far you can feed a tank.
There are four reasons I think that. One, most fish love clams. Two clams are the healthiest food you can feed because they are full of minerals and vitamins. More than any other food. They are even supposed to be the best thing we can eat according to a recent article in (I think) National Geographic)

Three when fish eat clams, the juices from the clams spread out over the entire tank and that juice is composed to tiny particles of clam which feed the corals and sponges. I have never fed an SPS coral in my life.

And last, clams are filter feeders and their guts are full of living bacteria, viruses and parasites in the same proportions that are in the seawater and in our fish "when they were collected" which is what my theory is based on. WE need that correct ratio of those three things to keep fish healthy and immune.

AS I said, if we eliminate one, the others will take over and crash the tank hence we have so many tank crashes and diseases. That is also why new tanks look lousy.

It's like the savanna in Africa. Lions eat the wilderbeasts. If we remove lions we have to many wilderbeasts so they starve. Wilderbeasts also poop all over the place fertilizing the grass that other animals need to survive and it also feeds the dung Beatles which recycle poop into fertilizer and those beatles are in turn eaten by birds and lizards etc.

Then they film this and make National Geographic specials so David Atenbury can have a job narrating.

 

[NDIrish]

The food I feed is all frozen which is mixed with LRS reef frenzy nano, which has scallop, clam, oyster in it. I also feed them chopped up small earthworms when I find them.
@Paul B you feed your fish black and white worms. Which has the best bacteria for the fish?

 

[sixty_reefer]

My tank only take on this thread is the understanding of the word “clean” can we not just call it a biodiversity balanced system? I for example prefer to keep all kinds of diversity in my system (spaghetti worms, bristled worms, different hitchhiker snails, limpid, amphipods etc..) I also enjoy picking up small rocks with clams, sponges and other unusual life forms and bacteria diversity. I still think I run a clean system IMO

 

[jaxteller007]

I definitely u see stand your logic, but what works for one reefer may not for others. So far me personally have had good luck with a qt period for all fish that come in. I have not had any of my fish that are in my display show signs of any disease illness. Good write up and thank you for you insight on your experiences throughout your time!!

My biggest issues with his method are what happens if you buy a fish that has been QTd and introduce him to your natural tank (if he's got that weakened immune system than he'll probably die) and lots of us don't leave anywhere near the ocean so we can't just up and add some mud or ocean water to the tank.

We get our fish from multiple sources, some QTd, some not, some from stores that treat their tanks. So I'd prefer not risking killing a fish with a weak immune system by dumping him in a tank that he can't handle.

Obviously Paul's method works for him and numerous other reefers. I just don't think it's the only method for a long lived tank.

 

[Paul B]

What can an average hobbyist do/feed to improve the diversity in their tanks, and not do?

I think I mentioned this someplace in this long rant.
Feed some food with living bacteria a few times a week besides commercially available food.
Never medicate or quarantine.

Try to get some of the gunky stuff in dealers tanks or sumps, but not if you run a quarantined system or you will surely crash it and don't call the store owner Shirley.

My system or theory only works if you set up a natural tank so the fish have immunity. If you quarantined everything in your tank, you have to keep doing that and if you see something sick you will have to remove it, maybe medicate it or quarantine it for 74 days.
That is a whole different system and is not compatible with most of what I propose. If you want to do that, keep doing that.

Paul, I read your posts here years before I started my 10 g this Feb. Thought you were just a crank or troll at first,

Why would you change your mind? There are many people on here who will never read anything I post and hate my guts so much they would pay Nancy Pelosi to stick me in the eye with a long spined sea urchin then sprinkle Velvet parasites in my underwear drawer.

Been thinking of adding an inch of mud to the middle chamber.

Mud in itself doesn't do anything. I use mud just because of the bacteria which I feel is good for diversity in the substrait. If you can get mud from the sea, it should have the exact combination of those things I mentioned.

My question is how you would apply your theories to a nano. Anything different?
Also, as a lifelong fisherman, fish do get sick and die of disease/parasites. I see it in baitfish schools all the time, there is always that 1% that is wobbling/crooked spine/covered in spots. Nature eliminating the weak. It's what a lot of lures imitate, easy pickings for gamefish.

No, I would not do a thing different. For many years I ran a local New York nano tank with native creatures. It was set up just as I have my reef but I didn't have a RUGF in it because it was so small. The bottom was just a fine layer of mud that I collected with the animals and I used bricks that I found in the sea for porous rock because of the bacteria. Bricks are very porous and inert.





This is my Pico, Nano, mini one ounce tank. It has a romain algae problem here.



As for those baitfish you see twitching with crooked spines, they are born like that.
If you spawn and grow fish you will notice a percentage of deformed fish that are born. Fish are not perfect and many of them are just not right. I have also been diving since 1970 and have seen some deformed fish, but of course they get eaten almost immediately.

 

[Paul B]

My tank only take on this thread is the understanding of the word “clean” can we not just call it a biodiversity balanced system? I for example prefer to keep all kinds of diversity in my system (spaghetti worms, bristled worms, different hitchhiker snails, limpid, amphipods etc..) I also enjoy picking up small rocks with clams, sponges and other unusual life forms and bacteria diversity. I still think I run a clean system IMO

OK. I do the same.
I also want a crystal clear tank with no visable detritus but a lot of diversity. I tend to write like Edgar Allen Poe, who as far as I know never had a reef tank so my ideas don't always come off exactly how I am envisioning them.

I don't advocate a dirty tank and I don't think I used that word, but I may have. I use mud only for the bacteria in it and I shoot most of it under my UG filter so I don't see it.
My tank appears very clean even though it is of advanced age as I am.

 

[Paul B]

I have MS but still dive and love my tank. Do I get a copy for free ?

Yes, PM me your address.

 

[Paul B]

. I suppose a little dose of diversity doesn't hurt though. Is the reverse UG still running?

Yes It is.

 

[Paul B]

Paul, what do you do for “quarantine”? and things line ich? You mentioned not using chmicals and stating away from quarantine. I think you are right...but as a fairly new reefer, how should I handle new additions of livestock in order to minimize importing parasites into my tank. You said your fish haven’t died of infectious disease since Reagan...what do you do when you get a new fish, see ich, etc?

This was the first time I’ve read your thread and I will be following. You may have answered my questions in other threads...please send link if so.

That is tough as I normally say a new tank will have problems no matter what system you use. This requires a long answer and I have written much of "my opinions" on it, I even wrote a book for all these questions that I hope I answered but unfortunately I also have a wife with MS who requires a lot of my attention so I can't go over it to many times.
I have a thread here that goes back years if you are interested, or borrow my book. I get nothing from the book as every penny goes to MS research so I am not trying to push it as all the information in the book I have already written here someplace and it is easy to search for.

Tank birthday, 47+ years

In a couple of weeks my reef will will have reached 40 years old. Unfortunately I don't remember when I was 40 but I remember when I set it up. I was a skinny 22 year old just back from Viet Nam. It is still running very well, still using the same reverse UG filter, same dolomite substrait but...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Paul B]

Yes, it’s true. Many people with antibiotic resistant C. difficile infection can be effectively cured with a stool transplant from someone with healthy bacteria in their gut.
These transplants actually have become the standard of care for recurrent C diff infections.

My wife has MS and we are trying to get an experimental treatment of this as stem cells didn't work.

@Paul B you feed your fish black and white worms. Which has the best bacteria for the fish?

Probably shellfish as it comes from salt water, but not shellfish you get in a package. I would get them from a fish market, preferably live, then freeze them yourself.

Live worms I find are fantastic and they almost force your fish to spawn and be healthy. But if you can get them, I would suppliment with as fresh shellfish as you can get.

 

[littlefishy]

"Why would you change your mind? There are many people on here who will never read anything I post and hate my guts so much they would pay Nancy Pelosi to stick me in the eye with a long spined sea urchin then sprinkle Velvet parasites in my underwear drawer. "

It took a few pages to "get" you

Also, I was getting back into the hobby after many years (used live indo rock and no quarantine as a teen), and all my reading a few years back had uln tanks as the modern, "better" way of understanding things. Actually, it took starting and running fw "natural" planted tanks with swamp mud below the substrate to get me to look at this sw method differently, plus your success.
I have a local (Sarasota) tidal creek with the most beautiful mollies you've ever seen within shouting distance of the gulf that are living in inches of water in thick mangrove mud. Copepods are thick as fleas in there.

 

[Paul B]

Clams, The Best Food for a Reef

Feed clams as food in the reef aquarium.

www.reef2reef.com

I am newish to the hobby and I myself can even appreciate this kind of insight.