A Huge Problem IMO as to why tanks crash and we have so many problems with just about everything.

[Paul B]

Carry on with your supermodels

 

[Casket_Case]

Great read Paul!!! By the way, where do you get these fresh foods and bay mud?

 

[Paul B]

My brother has been an electrician for 25 years.

This is my fiftieth year, but I retired 14 years ago.

 

[Paul B]

Great read Paul!!! By the way, where do you get these fresh foods and bay mud?

The seafood I get in a seafood market or supermarket where supermodels shop.
The mud I pick up here.


Or under these mud snails.


In this tide pool


This tide pool


Or I use sand from here.

 

[F i s h y]

Great read. I agree with many of your ideas and theories. I like to run my tanks with no filtrstion (not even a skimmer) lots of water movement, and lots of good live rock... not that dry stuff.... it takes years to build the diversity we need in our reefs. Slow and steady wins the race. I feel bad for new reefers... they start at a disadvantage when it comes to instant biodiversity we used to get with imported live rock... man I miss that stuff...

 

[ElussssvReefSD]

I am not the smartest fish keeper in the world, but I am probably one of the oldest. Being one of the oldest, I have also had more time to study this stuff and more time to make mistakes. Mistakes are one way we learn. A very good way.

It's actually how they train you in basic training in the Army or Marines. By forcing you to do impossible tasks, knowing you can't do them, then punishing you for not doing it correctly. Eventually, you learn what they want you to do while never completing those tasks correctly.

Trust me, it works.

I was a Noob at one time and that time was the 1950s, yes the world as we know it was around then and so were fish. We had the same problems then as we do now but a few of us learned, after many dead fish what we were doing wrong and I think I got it.

Most people in this hobby do something and it works, and they think they found the secret, but we may be talking about a time frame of a few months or a couple of years. A common hermit crab lives over 12 years so if we keep one for a couple of years, it is not "Great Success". To have a reef tank for four or five years without crashing, although is an accomplishment that few people ever attain is also not a Great Success and we should strive for more. We should always strive for more.

IMO a reef tank should be immortal or "live" as long as it's owner. Of course fish are not immortal, but most of them live much longer than people stay in this hobby.

Corals are immortal and can keep living while growing new polyps on top of older ones. That’s how reefs grow.

I feel the biggest mistake we make (and us Geezers who started this hobby are the cause) is keeping our tanks to clean.

Our gravel or sand is to clean, and our food is to clean and our water is to clean.

I will get to clean water later as it even sounds weird to me.

Fish, birds, whales, lizzards, earthworms, Liberals, Conservatives and us all have a symbiotic relationship with bacteria, viruses and parasites.

Viruses, bacteria and parasites have been here longer than us and will be here when we all go to Mars because this planet has nothing left but plastic.

In a tank, any tank, except a quarantined or medicated tank, bacteria run everything. We forget about them, but it is the bacteria that call the shots, not us.

Bacteria have their own problems as viruses also affect and kill them. Bacteria hate that.

Parasites are also infected by bacteria and viruses.

Probably funguses also, but I am guessing.

Anyway, we call those things “disease organisms” because they can make us sick, but we forget that without them, we couldn’t live.

Our stomach is loaded with both beneficial and harmful bacteria. They live in harmony along with the funguses and viruses. Seawater is loaded with all of those things and that is natural and the way it should be.

We have problems when we mess with that system. If we kill bacteria, the viruses can take over as can the parasites.

If we for instance use copper, we will kill the parasites and bacteria, but not the viruses.

We really can’t kill the viruses (as Covid 19 taught us) because viruses are not alive to start with but we can disintegrate them using UV light or ozone.

So if we kill one of the pathogens, we allow the remaining ones to thrive and cause problems.

We can of course kill everything by using drugs along with UV and Ozone but should we?

It sounds like a good plan but have you seen anyone who just had Chemo and radiation to kill cancer?

Those people have no immunity to anything and although they are kept in a sterile environment, many of them die anyway because we can’t live like that in the real world.

Neither can fish.

In some cases we do have to resort to that drastic measure and sometimes it works. But not usually and it could take years for that fish to regain its compliment of stomach flora where it could live a normal life free from disease with a functioning immune system.

The problem with killing everything is of course that the bacteria, parasites and viruses will all infect the fish at different times and whichever comes first can overwhelm the fishes immune system because those things no longer are living in harmony where they can all keep each other in check.

In nature none of those pathogens get the upper hand because they evolved to counteract each other.

If we disrupt the cycle, we cause problems and tank crashes.

I propose, and it has worked for decades for me and other successful aquarists with long lasting reefs, that instead of trying to limit or eliminate natural pathogens leaving the fish open to disease, we cultivate those things, "in proportion" with each other leaving the fish with a strong immune system that it evolved with.

Remember, in the sea the fish are living with every aquatic disease there is with no problem. They only have problems after they are collected, shipped and put in our tanks.

There is no reason for them to have problems as my fish realize including my almost 30 year olds.

I know many, or all the fish we buy don’t look very good and are all infected with something. But remember, they are “always” infected with something because fish eat and breathe pathogens as they live. In the sea their immune system has no problems dealing with those afflictions because the fish is not stressed and is eating there natural food which is loaded with bacteria.

It’s the pathogens that tell the fishes immune system what method to use to eradicate that organism.

Remember in the sea fish normally eat living prey. They rarely eat sterile pellets, flakes or freeze dried anything. The prey they eat is always loaded with bacteria, parasites and viruses in the same proportions as are already in the fishes gut. Fish and us can’t digest food without bacteria which is the reason so many fish die while being medicated with copper or other drugs. It kills their stomach bacteria. It’s simple.

I mentioned before that our water is to clean and that may sound counterproductive because coral reefs are thought to be pristine. But the difference in water from a coral reef and our tanks is that the water on a coral reef has been there long before Betty White was born and many of our tanks were started a week from last Tuesday. Seawater actually gets better with age, to an extent.

If new, clean seawater was so good, why do new tanks look lousy? Why do new tanks, with all new water have so many diseases? Why do Noobs lose so many fish?

It’s because bacteria, viruses, corals, seaweed, rocks, meteorites, shipwrecks, whales and waste water from frankfurter carts in New York City all end up in the sea and all of those things are what fish evolved in. OK, maybe not the frankfurter carts. But it takes time for those organisms to reach a point where they are in sync with each other and none of them out weigh or out perform each other.

I was also under the impression that we needed to keep everything sterile. I wouldn’t think to put my hands in the tank without rinsing many times to get every trace of soap off.

I tried very hard to keep dirt out of my tank and vacuumed up every last bit of un eaten food.

I was wrong.

Now I take mud from a salt water bay and throw it in. I take garden soil (without pesticides) and throw it in. I feed earthworms full of dirt. I feed clams, mussels and whiteworms with as much dirt attached as I can find.

I never quarantine or medicate unless I purposely buy a very sick fish that I know will not live through the night and I experiment with questionable results.

I never worry if a fish I buy is in the same tank as fish with spots.



What I do is take that fish home as soon as I can and after a short acclimation, place it in my tank and try to get natural food into it. Natural food with living bacteria in it which is not usually commercially purchased food.

That food is deep frozen or irradiated to kill bacteria. I do use that food but I always supplement it with the foods I mentioned because without fresh, living bacteria, fish will always be at risk of dying from just about anything.



If you don’t believe any of this, go and watch Oprah give away Cadillacs to stray cats.

Yes, all of this!!! I always wondered why some tanks seem to be so good on "auto-pilot" and others just seem to go wrong at every corner, this sums up my thinking perfectly!... the "auto-pilot" ones are in equilibrium. #tankgoals

 

[ElussssvReefSD]

The seafood I get in a seafood market or supermarket where supermodels shop.
The mud I pick up here.


Or under these mud snails.


In this tide pool


This tide pool


Or I use sand from here.

Do you process and store/freeze the foods you get from the market or just cut it up and dump it in?

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I am not the smartest fish keeper in the world, but I am probably one of the oldest. Being one of the oldest, I have also had more time to study this stuff and more time to make mistakes. Mistakes are one way we learn. A very good way.

It's actually how they train you in basic training in the Army or Marines. By forcing you to do impossible tasks, knowing you can't do them, then punishing you for not doing it correctly. Eventually, you learn what they want you to do while never completing those tasks correctly.

Trust me, it works.

I was a Noob at one time and that time was the 1950s, yes the world as we know it was around then and so were fish. We had the same problems then as we do now but a few of us learned, after many dead fish what we were doing wrong and I think I got it.

Most people in this hobby do something and it works, and they think they found the secret, but we may be talking about a time frame of a few months or a couple of years. A common hermit crab lives over 12 years so if we keep one for a couple of years, it is not "Great Success". To have a reef tank for four or five years without crashing, although is an accomplishment that few people ever attain is also not a Great Success and we should strive for more. We should always strive for more.

IMO a reef tank should be immortal or "live" as long as it's owner. Of course fish are not immortal, but most of them live much longer than people stay in this hobby.

Corals are immortal and can keep living while growing new polyps on top of older ones. That’s how reefs grow.

I feel the biggest mistake we make (and us Geezers who started this hobby are the cause) is keeping our tanks to clean.

Our gravel or sand is to clean, and our food is to clean and our water is to clean.

I will get to clean water later as it even sounds weird to me.

Fish, birds, whales, lizzards, earthworms, Liberals, Conservatives and us all have a symbiotic relationship with bacteria, viruses and parasites.

Viruses, bacteria and parasites have been here longer than us and will be here when we all go to Mars because this planet has nothing left but plastic.

In a tank, any tank, except a quarantined or medicated tank, bacteria run everything. We forget about them, but it is the bacteria that call the shots, not us.

Bacteria have their own problems as viruses also affect and kill them. Bacteria hate that.

Parasites are also infected by bacteria and viruses.

Probably funguses also, but I am guessing.

Anyway, we call those things “disease organisms” because they can make us sick, but we forget that without them, we couldn’t live.

Our stomach is loaded with both beneficial and harmful bacteria. They live in harmony along with the funguses and viruses. Seawater is loaded with all of those things and that is natural and the way it should be.

We have problems when we mess with that system. If we kill bacteria, the viruses can take over as can the parasites.

If we for instance use copper, we will kill the parasites and bacteria, but not the viruses.

We really can’t kill the viruses (as Covid 19 taught us) because viruses are not alive to start with but we can disintegrate them using UV light or ozone.

So if we kill one of the pathogens, we allow the remaining ones to thrive and cause problems.

We can of course kill everything by using drugs along with UV and Ozone but should we?

It sounds like a good plan but have you seen anyone who just had Chemo and radiation to kill cancer?

Those people have no immunity to anything and although they are kept in a sterile environment, many of them die anyway because we can’t live like that in the real world.

Neither can fish.

In some cases we do have to resort to that drastic measure and sometimes it works. But not usually and it could take years for that fish to regain its compliment of stomach flora where it could live a normal life free from disease with a functioning immune system.

The problem with killing everything is of course that the bacteria, parasites and viruses will all infect the fish at different times and whichever comes first can overwhelm the fishes immune system because those things no longer are living in harmony where they can all keep each other in check.

In nature none of those pathogens get the upper hand because they evolved to counteract each other.

If we disrupt the cycle, we cause problems and tank crashes.

I propose, and it has worked for decades for me and other successful aquarists with long lasting reefs, that instead of trying to limit or eliminate natural pathogens leaving the fish open to disease, we cultivate those things, "in proportion" with each other leaving the fish with a strong immune system that it evolved with.

Remember, in the sea the fish are living with every aquatic disease there is with no problem. They only have problems after they are collected, shipped and put in our tanks.

There is no reason for them to have problems as my fish realize including my almost 30 year olds.

I know many, or all the fish we buy don’t look very good and are all infected with something. But remember, they are “always” infected with something because fish eat and breathe pathogens as they live. In the sea their immune system has no problems dealing with those afflictions because the fish is not stressed and is eating there natural food which is loaded with bacteria.

It’s the pathogens that tell the fishes immune system what method to use to eradicate that organism.

Remember in the sea fish normally eat living prey. They rarely eat sterile pellets, flakes or freeze dried anything. The prey they eat is always loaded with bacteria, parasites and viruses in the same proportions as are already in the fishes gut. Fish and us can’t digest food without bacteria which is the reason so many fish die while being medicated with copper or other drugs. It kills their stomach bacteria. It’s simple.

I mentioned before that our water is to clean and that may sound counterproductive because coral reefs are thought to be pristine. But the difference in water from a coral reef and our tanks is that the water on a coral reef has been there long before Betty White was born and many of our tanks were started a week from last Tuesday. Seawater actually gets better with age, to an extent.

If new, clean seawater was so good, why do new tanks look lousy? Why do new tanks, with all new water have so many diseases? Why do Noobs lose so many fish?

It’s because bacteria, viruses, corals, seaweed, rocks, meteorites, shipwrecks, whales and waste water from frankfurter carts in New York City all end up in the sea and all of those things are what fish evolved in. OK, maybe not the frankfurter carts. But it takes time for those organisms to reach a point where they are in sync with each other and none of them out weigh or out perform each other.

I was also under the impression that we needed to keep everything sterile. I wouldn’t think to put my hands in the tank without rinsing many times to get every trace of soap off.

I tried very hard to keep dirt out of my tank and vacuumed up every last bit of un eaten food.

I was wrong.

Now I take mud from a salt water bay and throw it in. I take garden soil (without pesticides) and throw it in. I feed earthworms full of dirt. I feed clams, mussels and whiteworms with as much dirt attached as I can find.

I never quarantine or medicate unless I purposely buy a very sick fish that I know will not live through the night and I experiment with questionable results.

I never worry if a fish I buy is in the same tank as fish with spots.



What I do is take that fish home as soon as I can and after a short acclimation, place it in my tank and try to get natural food into it. Natural food with living bacteria in it which is not usually commercially purchased food.

That food is deep frozen or irradiated to kill bacteria. I do use that food but I always supplement it with the foods I mentioned because without fresh, living bacteria, fish will always be at risk of dying from just about anything.



If you don’t believe any of this, go and watch Oprah give away Cadillacs to stray cats.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[PerculaBen]

So all of you members are reading this now and none of you have anything to add? I am tired of typing.

• adamf83
• ikanspelwel
• Willylumplump
• ghrorick
• bromdad
• rickyb
• Shufflepig
• qhduong
• Miguel Pxt
• Eldredge
• macdave
• Surfside74
• skyyyyyyu
• Kunzman
• Scoob
• OldReliable
• ClownHawk
• Donna Stevens
• newbie2014
• chichi
• Carolinablur3
• PghReef
• ajm83
• mtl12580
• chadg
• wes urquhart
• Kevind0905
• Pardsie
• miko38
• Mark3
• E.intheC
• Brian Fay
• Trand1983
• GaryE
• Steve Justis
• mijan
• PerculaBen
• creativeballance
• Scott Campbell
• AXquarium
• growoldplease
• TNreefer123!
• Matt_pott
• jsilver
• Chalice Kingdom
• SMSREEF
• stevellem
• WVNed

Quite an honor to get called out by the great one!

 

[Paul B]

Do you process and store/freeze the foods you get from the market or just cut it up and dump it in?

I chop it up and dump it in.

Quite an honor to get called out by the great one!

Lets not get carried away, I am a fish Geek like everyone else here.

 

[blasterman]

Hate to pull in science here....

I've fed my fish dry foods for decades and had them healthier and live longer. Frozen or wet fish food is also processed. If you think it's better by all means try to eat it like sushi. See how that goes for you. Want healthier fish? Leave them on their natural reef. If I stuffed you in a plastic bag after dosing you with cyanide and flew you half way around the world in a black crate you would be prone to disease as well.

Next, the core bacteria in our tanks live everywhere; finger nails , dirt etc. That's why you can cycle a tank without ever introducing native marine organisms. Obviously live rock is preferential because the organisms in it have balanced to natural levels for a captive tank , not the ocean.

Our tanks are not the ocean. The cleanest reef tank in the world with fish in it is a 1000x dirtier than the ocean. So, the premise we keep our tanks too clean is wrong from the start.

Bacteria and other micro organisms respond to nutrient levels. They dont just thrive by throwing them in a tank

Corals dont live forever. Reefs have cyclical die offs and soft corals have relatively short life spans.

 

[Paul B]

although at-home systems occasionally deep cleaned like when you moved homes, and ran as RUGF which is not like any other sandbed on this board might run long term without much extra help, the ones we see on forums do not--per 100. *am aware apparently the masses do sandbeds wrong and there are better ways, but again the place to apply that statement is where the help is needed.

Brandon, as you know I like a Reverse Undergravel Filter with dolomite or gravel. I don't advocate it because most people just laugh. Of course those laughing people have been laughing themselves out of the hobby for decades and I have not seen any of them for years.

In the beginning, when salt water came out we all had freshwater tanks with UG filters so we "assumed" that is what we should do in our salt water systems.

I, and many others found out quickly that that system in a salt tank is a disaster in a few months. It clogs and forms hydrogen sulfide requiring you to dump out everything and start it over, which I did probably twice. But there was no other system.

Live sand, or any sand was not available nor was anything else for salt water.
I figured I would reverse the flow and that is how it's been for 45 years.
I don't know why so many people are afraid of this system that doesn't seem to have any negatives.

The only maintenance I do is maybe yearly or twice a year, I stir it up where I can reach with my diatom filter with a long tube on it and suck out whatever floats.
I am not doing that to clean it specifically, but to keep it from clogging.

The thing is full of life all the way through and even under it. I want life. Life is good.
While I am stirring up the gravel I blow into the pores in the rocks where I can. It's kind of fun.

 

[brandon429]

Rugf + occasional reef storm is good by me best of both worlds

 

[Paul B]

Hate to pull in science here....

I've fed my fish dry foods for decades and had them healthier and live longer. Frozen or wet fish food is also processed.

I love science and I love it when someone questions me as it makes me think. (I am also not perfect)


When you say healthier and live longer, how long are we talking? I am saying all fish, except the ones that maybe jump out should live their natural lifespan and only die of old age, never get sick and if they are a pair, they should spawn constantly. The average fish we keep lives about 12 years with tangs, clowns etc living much longer and smaller pipefish living shorter.

I never advocate "Frozen or wet food that is processed. That is what is commercially available and I always advise to supplement it with live or freshly frozen food from a Human sea food market. I did say that multiple times as food from a LFS would be frozen maybe for years and could be irradiated to kill organisms that I want alive.

Want healthier fish? Leave them on their natural reef

I agree. We will never have fish as healthy as they are in the sea.

Next, the core bacteria in our tanks live everywhere; finger nails , dirt etc.

Yes it does. I am talking about the gut bacteria that the fish, and us use to digest food and the disease bacteria/parasites and viruses that the fish processes in it's "head kidney" and sends the information to it's slime secreting glands so the fish makes the correct antibodies it needs to kill whatever is in the water or the fish prey.

The bacteria under our fingernails won't do it. Not my fingernails anyway. ;Wideyed

If I stuffed you in a plastic bag after dosing you with cyanide and flew you half way around the world in a black crate you would be prone to disease as well.

That is true. And it is also the reason I developed my system of trying to keep up the immunity the fish had in the sea.
And it seems to work as my fish never get sick. I have been posting on forums since computers have been invented and in paper magazines before that and so far, I have never posted about a fish I had that had a communicable disease.

I am just trying to teach this system. Many other people have different systems using drugs and quarantine and there are many threads and books on that method. We can do any system we want. This is mine.

. That's why you can cycle a tank without ever introducing native marine organisms.

Yes we can. But cycling a tank is only for water conditions and has no bearing on fish immunity. That only comes by keeping disease organisms in the tank with the fish.

Our tanks are not the ocean. The cleanest reef tank in the world with fish in it is a 1000x dirtier than the ocean. So, the premise we keep our tanks too clean is wrong from the start.

By clean, as I stated means expecting new ASW to support life like more matured water, New tanks look lousy for a reason. On natural reefs, the water is old, not new ASW and has beneficial substances in it that build up over time.

Bacteria and other micro organisms respond to nutrient levels. They dont just thrive by throwing them in a tank

Yes they do. But most of the bacteria we have in our tanks, like from under our fingernails are not the correct bacteria for our needs such as converting nitrate or helping our fish develop an immunity.

WE only need certain bacteria for our needs.



Geography
Bacteria can be found living in nearly every habitat on the face of the earth, regardless of how seemingly inhospitable. Millions of bacteria fill the guts of humans and other animals, as well as cover the surface of plant roots. Bacteria have been found in the deepest parts of the ocean, seven miles under the surface and as high as 40 miles into the atmosphere. Many species of bacteria can withstand harsh conditions, including extreme heat, cold and saline.

Size
The number of bacteria on earth is estimated to be 5,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. This is five million trillion trillion or 5 x 10 to the 30th power.

Benefits
While bacteria can cause disease, a great proportion of bacteria are beneficial. The flora within the guts of humans makes digestion possible. Soil bacteria drive the process of decomposition. Regardless of how big an ecosystem, if bacteria were not present, it would collapse.

The Two Main Groups
Taking a big overview of bacteria, there are two main groups, the bacteria and the cyanobacteria. Bacteria include all of the commonly known species such as Escherichia coli (E. coli bacteria), Salmonella bacteria, Staphylococci, Listeria and the Clostridia. Cyanobacteria form a separate type of bacteria that are able to photosynthesise – they can also be called blue-green algae.

Types of Bacteria
There are seven main groups of bacteria, distinguished by their shape and the type of cell wall they possess. Four of the seven types make up the majority of all bacteria:

• Gram positive cocci
• Gram negative cocci
• Gram positive bacilli
• Gram negative bacilli

 

[Paul B]

Corals dont live forever. Reefs have cyclical die offs and soft corals have relatively short life spans.

I didn't specifically say SPS corals which grow by attaching on top of existing corals so the reef keeps growing indefinately because each polyp is a new animal. LPS are different. I meant to say SPS as I was thinking it but my fingers go faster than my mind.

Of course we have hurricanes, etc.
Thank you for posting and keeping me on my old toes.

 

[NashobaTek]

The frozen seafood I have been able to get is shrimp and just managed to get scallops. The shrimp still have the vein in them, I want to get clams but haven't been able to find any yet. I live in a small town in the country so our seafood sections are frozen.
The batfish went batfish crazy over the slices of scallops yesterday. I have been feeding it grated shrimp and started slicing the shrimp up since it's bigger. It's a happy camper.

I plan on implementing your entire system set up once I get the bigger tank. Then I will do the same for the 125 after the bigger one is running.

My first trip into saltwater aquariums was back when ugf were the only thing recommended. My tank looked good and supported the fish and invertebrates very well. Never tried coral back than, but I joined the Marine corps and tore the tank down.
I hate water changes with a passion, mainly because I think it's a waste.

 

[Casket_Case]

The seafood I get in a seafood market or supermarket where supermodels shop.
The mud I pick up here.


Or under these mud snails.


In this tide pool


This tide pool


Or I use sand from here.

That is so awesome. I’d definitely do the same but I live five hours from the ocean... whenever I go I grab as much stuff as possible. You oughta start jarring that stuff n selling it haha

 

[Paul B]

NashobaTek the scallops may be better than the shrimp but neither of those foods are real good. The shrimps you have have no head or guts and shrimp are not filter feeders, but better than Oreo cookies.

 

[NashobaTek]

Thanks, that's why I'm going to take a drive to Dallas or Tyler and find a place with fresh seafood. I want to feed the best I can.

 

[stevellem]

I am not the smartest fish keeper in the world, but I am probably one of the oldest. Being one of the oldest, I have also had more time to study this stuff and more time to make mistakes. Mistakes are one way we learn. A very good way.

It's actually how they train you in basic training in the Army or Marines. By forcing you to do impossible tasks, knowing you can't do them, then punishing you for not doing it correctly. Eventually, you learn what they want you to do while never completing those tasks correctly.

Trust me, it works.

I was a Noob at one time and that time was the 1950s, yes the world as we know it was around then and so were fish. We had the same problems then as we do now but a few of us learned, after many dead fish what we were doing wrong and I think I got it.

Most people in this hobby do something and it works, and they think they found the secret, but we may be talking about a time frame of a few months or a couple of years. A common hermit crab lives over 12 years so if we keep one for a couple of years, it is not "Great Success". To have a reef tank for four or five years without crashing, although is an accomplishment that few people ever attain is also not a Great Success and we should strive for more. We should always strive for more.

IMO a reef tank should be immortal or "live" as long as it's owner. Of course fish are not immortal, but most of them live much longer than people stay in this hobby.

Corals are immortal and can keep living while growing new polyps on top of older ones. That’s how reefs grow.

I feel the biggest mistake we make (and us Geezers who started this hobby are the cause) is keeping our tanks to clean.

Our gravel or sand is to clean, and our food is to clean and our water is to clean.

I will get to clean water later as it even sounds weird to me.

Fish, birds, whales, lizzards, earthworms, Liberals, Conservatives and us all have a symbiotic relationship with bacteria, viruses and parasites.

Viruses, bacteria and parasites have been here longer than us and will be here when we all go to Mars because this planet has nothing left but plastic.

In a tank, any tank, except a quarantined or medicated tank, bacteria run everything. We forget about them, but it is the bacteria that call the shots, not us.

Bacteria have their own problems as viruses also affect and kill them. Bacteria hate that.

Parasites are also infected by bacteria and viruses.

Probably funguses also, but I am guessing.

Anyway, we call those things “disease organisms” because they can make us sick, but we forget that without them, we couldn’t live.

Our stomach is loaded with both beneficial and harmful bacteria. They live in harmony along with the funguses and viruses. Seawater is loaded with all of those things and that is natural and the way it should be.

We have problems when we mess with that system. If we kill bacteria, the viruses can take over as can the parasites.

If we for instance use copper, we will kill the parasites and bacteria, but not the viruses.

We really can’t kill the viruses (as Covid 19 taught us) because viruses are not alive to start with but we can disintegrate them using UV light or ozone.

So if we kill one of the pathogens, we allow the remaining ones to thrive and cause problems.

We can of course kill everything by using drugs along with UV and Ozone but should we?

It sounds like a good plan but have you seen anyone who just had Chemo and radiation to kill cancer?

Those people have no immunity to anything and although they are kept in a sterile environment, many of them die anyway because we can’t live like that in the real world.

Neither can fish.

In some cases we do have to resort to that drastic measure and sometimes it works. But not usually and it could take years for that fish to regain its compliment of stomach flora where it could live a normal life free from disease with a functioning immune system.

The problem with killing everything is of course that the bacteria, parasites and viruses will all infect the fish at different times and whichever comes first can overwhelm the fishes immune system because those things no longer are living in harmony where they can all keep each other in check.

In nature none of those pathogens get the upper hand because they evolved to counteract each other.

If we disrupt the cycle, we cause problems and tank crashes.

I propose, and it has worked for decades for me and other successful aquarists with long lasting reefs, that instead of trying to limit or eliminate natural pathogens leaving the fish open to disease, we cultivate those things, "in proportion" with each other leaving the fish with a strong immune system that it evolved with.

Remember, in the sea the fish are living with every aquatic disease there is with no problem. They only have problems after they are collected, shipped and put in our tanks.

There is no reason for them to have problems as my fish realize including my almost 30 year olds.

I know many, or all the fish we buy don’t look very good and are all infected with something. But remember, they are “always” infected with something because fish eat and breathe pathogens as they live. In the sea their immune system has no problems dealing with those afflictions because the fish is not stressed and is eating there natural food which is loaded with bacteria.

It’s the pathogens that tell the fishes immune system what method to use to eradicate that organism.

Remember in the sea fish normally eat living prey. They rarely eat sterile pellets, flakes or freeze dried anything. The prey they eat is always loaded with bacteria, parasites and viruses in the same proportions as are already in the fishes gut. Fish and us can’t digest food without bacteria which is the reason so many fish die while being medicated with copper or other drugs. It kills their stomach bacteria. It’s simple.

I mentioned before that our water is to clean and that may sound counterproductive because coral reefs are thought to be pristine. But the difference in water from a coral reef and our tanks is that the water on a coral reef has been there long before Betty White was born and many of our tanks were started a week from last Tuesday. Seawater actually gets better with age, to an extent.

If new, clean seawater was so good, why do new tanks look lousy? Why do new tanks, with all new water have so many diseases? Why do Noobs lose so many fish?

It’s because bacteria, viruses, corals, seaweed, rocks, meteorites, shipwrecks, whales and waste water from frankfurter carts in New York City all end up in the sea and all of those things are what fish evolved in. OK, maybe not the frankfurter carts. But it takes time for those organisms to reach a point where they are in sync with each other and none of them out weigh or out perform each other.

I was also under the impression that we needed to keep everything sterile. I wouldn’t think to put my hands in the tank without rinsing many times to get every trace of soap off.

I tried very hard to keep dirt out of my tank and vacuumed up every last bit of un eaten food.

I was wrong.

Now I take mud from a salt water bay and throw it in. I take garden soil (without pesticides) and throw it in. I feed earthworms full of dirt. I feed clams, mussels and whiteworms with as much dirt attached as I can find.

I never quarantine or medicate unless I purposely buy a very sick fish that I know will not live through the night and I experiment with questionable results.

I never worry if a fish I buy is in the same tank as fish with spots.



What I do is take that fish home as soon as I can and after a short acclimation, place it in my tank and try to get natural food into it. Natural food with living bacteria in it which is not usually commercially purchased food.

That food is deep frozen or irradiated to kill bacteria. I do use that food but I always supplement it with the foods I mentioned because without fresh, living bacteria, fish will always be at risk of dying from just about anything.



If you don’t believe any of this, go and watch Oprah give away Cadillacs to stray cats.

I’ve read your many of your posts and find them very insightful while providing a perspective that is grounded in success. One of the pearls I’ve taken and employed is the use of Omega 3 fish oil to soak pellets and flakes in. As you stated, fish live in an environment ubiquitous with bacteria, virus and parasites whether it be the ocean or our reef tanks. Having a robust immune system protects our reef inhabitants which I believe extend beyond fish to corals as well as invertebrates. I do quarantine new additions, primarily to avoid Marine Velvet which like Covid19, is the one pathogen which I want to avoid as much as possible to introduce (based on seeing first hand how viirulent it was). Though other posts I’ve read state they are successful in their tanks being parasite free, after almost 50 years of keeping saltwater fish and reef tanks, I don’t know if this is truly possible. Only with my most recent tank (375g mixed reef with 55 g refugium and 100g sump) and adopting the philosophy of focusing on prevention through maximizing health and accepting that a completely sterile environment Is not the goal have I finally found success which one day may match yours (though my tank is not set up for fish to spawn, a number of the species I have exhibit courting behavior. And many corals I have accidentally fragged, I have glued to bare spaces and watched them establish and grow). Thanks again for sharing your experience.