A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

[Paul Sands]

This study shows that they can be suspended in a hypoxic environment. While they only did the testing for a month it opens the possibility for the encysted stage to last many months, if not years.

5. Conclusions
This study has demonstrated the ability of tomonts to become dormant
in a hypoxic environment and to resume development in an oxic
environment at any developmental stage; it has also demonstrated the
potential long-term viability of dormant tomonts in hypoxic environments.
These results indicate that tomonts can accumulate on the
seabed during the summer when it becomes hypoxic. This accumulation
of tomonts may be a key factor for the autumn outbreaks of cryptocaryoniasis
in floating net cages in temperate waters.

Do you believe there are true hypoxic environments in our reef tanks? I’ve seen debates about that being true or false that were significantly more impassioned than the one on this thread. I don’t have any real basis for an opinion but have seen well respected reefers argue both sides.

I somewhat account for this being true in my frag tank anyway. When I move coral from there to my display tank it gets new frag plugs, dip, and a serious rinse or two with display water to wash away any free swimming parasites. Unless the coral or snail itself is the hypoxic environment, I think I’ve accounted for not transferring those to the display tank as much as humanly possible.

 

[Mortie31]

Lots of testing is going on with hydrogen peroxide, stay tuned for that!

It will be interesting to see the results, especially to those of us who use oxydators, I don’t think they actually release hydrogen peroxide in sufficient concentrations to affect these parasites, but I may be wrong on that @Lasse or @atoll may be able to offer more educated opinions.

 

[Paul B]

I don’t like quarantining and share concerns with prophylactic treatment but don’t see that it’s optional anymore for success even short term, but particularly long-term.

Seriousely!!. Hello there Ford. Nice that you joined. :D

By the way, I added a hippo tang and box fish. I realize a hippo tang is a very easy, beginner fish, but still considered by many as an ich magnet. Box fish invented ich and they are more prone to it than tangs. :p

 

[Mortie31]

Do you believe there are true hypoxic environments in our reef tanks?

Potentially in large rock structures and almost certainly in nitrate reactors, bacterial mats can reduce 02 levels to zero below them

 

[Paul Sands]

Potentially in large rock structures and almost certainly in nitrate reactors, bacterial mats can reduce 02 levels to zero below them

I assume by bacteria mat you mean a marinepure block or similar.

I have none or those things in my tank.

 

[Mortie31]

I assume by bacteria mat you mean a marinepure block or similar.

I have none or those things in my tank.

A bacteria mat can form on any surface,
I wasn’t making a comment on your particular system, but simply saying that it can happen and suggesting a couple of potential areas to be aware of for anyone else reading the thread.

 

[atoll]

It will be interesting to see the results, especially to those of us who use oxydators, I don’t think they actually release hydrogen peroxide in sufficient concentrations to affect these parasites, but I may be wrong on that @Lasse or @atoll may be able to offer more educated opinions.

My take on using Oxydator's to fight the likes of itch is by saturating ( or nearly) the water with O2 allows the fish to breath more easily akin to putting an oxygen mask on the fish. As far as I am aware fish don't die of the spots on the body but by spots invading the gills limiting their ability to take in oxygen. I never thought of the peroxide directly attacking parasites. With an oxidator most if not all the peroxide is converted to super O2 by the time it enters the water column. This would depend on how strong a solution of peroxide you use as the higher the percentage the more likely unconverted peroxide would get into the surrounding water. You have to remember hydrogen peroxide is a bleach similar to ozone in that it is unstable and quickly broken down and is highly reactive. I have added peroxide directly to the DT in the past but only did so as a last course of action and then only at low concentrations. If peroxide does indeed attack parasites while not harming fish, corals or inverts that would be great but I still consider it a dangerous practice

 

[Brew12]

I don’t like quarantining and share concerns with prophylactic treatment but don’t see that it’s optional anymore for success even short term, but particularly long-term.

It's hard to see being successful for me without it too, which is why I still do it.

I feel I owe it to my existing inhabitants. I answer to them before my newly purchased fish, so to speak.

I also know you spend a LOT of time and money trying to improve the care you give to, and survival rates, of new fish. I think everyone has that goal, and I feel that the more different ways we can improve survival rates, wholesaler to 20 years in a DT, the better.

My 700 gallons of display tanks are stuffed full of fish

Umm... isn't that an understatement? You put more fish into those 700g than most people put in 1700g. I think the only reason you don't have aggression issues is that the psychedelic effect from all the moving flashing colors is like an LSD trip on the fish. I think even you would admit that you would have no option but to get out of the hobby or greatly change your stocking practices if you lived in Canada. I suspect there is no way to keep a fish using an immunity based system with your <ahem> slightly elevated bio load, but I want to try and see if we can find something that works for a little less "diversity".

 

[Brew12]

o you believe there are true hypoxic environments in our reef tanks? I’ve seen debates about that being true or false that were significantly more impassioned than the one on this thread. I don’t have any real basis for an opinion but have seen well respected reefers argue both sides.

I do believe there are. The question is how large they are and how large then would need to be. Denitrification occurs when an absence of O2 forces the bacteria to consume NO3 for the oxygen source. Even fairly small porous rock will have denitrication occurring although it may be at very low levels.

Potentially in large rock structures and almost certainly in nitrate reactors, bacterial mats can reduce 02 levels to zero below them

This is true, too, I believe. @Lasse is much more knowledgeable than I when it comes to this topic, but I believe that cyanobacteria will cause oxygen deprivation beneath their mats.

 

[Brew12]

My take on using Oxydator's to fight the likes of itch is by saturating ( or nearly) the water with O2 allows the fish to breath more easily akin to putting an oxygen mask on the fish. As far as I am aware fish don't die of the spots on the body but by spots invading the gills limiting their ability to take in oxygen. I never thought of the peroxide directly attacking parasites. With an oxidator most if not all the peroxide is converted to super O2 by the time it enters the water column. This would depend on how strong a solution of peroxide you use as the higher the percentage the more likely unconverted peroxide would get into the surrounding water. You have to remember hydrogen peroxide is a bleach similar to ozone in that it is unstable and quickly broken down and is highly reactive. I have added peroxide directly to the DT in the past but only did so as a last course of action and then only at low concentrations. If peroxide does indeed attack parasites while not harming fish, corals or inverts that would be great but I still consider it a dangerous practice

I hadn't thought of this aspect of it. Your experience is appreciate, as always, @atoll
I also have to agree that I don't think the levels from an Oxydator would directly attack parasites. I have felt there was a benefit based on reduced organics. Better oxygen transfer through the gills is something I missed completely but it does make sense.

 

[atoll]

I hadn't thought of this aspect of it. Your experience is appreciate, as always, @atoll
I also have to agree that I don't think the levels from an Oxydator would directly attack parasites. I have felt there was a benefit based on reduced organics. Better oxygen transfer through the gills is something I missed completely but it does make sense.

All theory on my behalf am just a retired carpenter ( no such thing)and building projects manager bit like Paul B in that I have no direct scientific background or particular knowledge. Maybe am right maybe I am wrong but what I can tell you I have helped others who's fish had itch problems by suggesting an Oxydator would be of benefit and even adding peroxide directly but as said adding it directly was always a last resort as it so difficult to estimate a dosage that is both safe and beneficial enough to make a difference to aid fish survival as there as so many variables to consider but I have done it. On a slightly different note and relatively recently with a cousin's tropical FW tank not with itch but what I believe was ammonia poisoning. I suggested adding peroxide in increasing dosages which saved his tank from an ammonia wipeout.

 

[ngoodermuth]

My take on using Oxydator's to fight the likes of itch is by saturating ( or nearly) the water with O2 allows the fish to breath more easily akin to putting an oxygen mask on the fish. As far as I am aware fish don't die of the spots on the body but by spots invading the gills limiting their ability to take in oxygen. I never thought of the peroxide directly attacking parasites. With an oxidator most if not all the peroxide is converted to super O2 by the time it enters the water column. This would depend on how strong a solution of peroxide you use as the higher the percentage the more likely unconverted peroxide would get into the surrounding water. You have to remember hydrogen peroxide is a bleach similar to ozone in that it is unstable and quickly broken down and is highly reactive. I have added peroxide directly to the DT in the past but only did so as a last course of action and then only at low concentrations. If peroxide does indeed attack parasites while not harming fish, corals or inverts that would be great but I still consider it a dangerous practice

The current thought is to use as a bath, but with minimal water agitation so that it doesn’t “react” like you’ve mentioned.

https://humble.fish/hydrogen-peroxide/

 

[4FordFamily]

...You put more fish into those 700g than most people put in 1700g. I think the only reason you don't have aggression issues is that the psychedelic effect from all the moving flashing colors is like an LSD trip on the fish. I think even you would admit that you would have no option but to get out of the hobby or greatly change your stocking practices if you lived in Canada. I suspect there is no way to keep a fish using an immunity based system with your <ahem> slightly elevated bio load, but I want to try and see if we can find something that works for a little less "diversity".

Without a doubt! They're distracted by my good looks. Sorry @Paul B had to steal your thunder here! :D

 

[4FordFamily]

Seriousely!!. Hello there Ford. Nice that you joined. :D

By the way, I added a hippo tang and box fish. I realize a hippo tang is a very easy, beginner fish, but still considered by many as an ich magnet. Box fish invented ich and they are more prone to it than tangs. :p

Keep me posted, I wouldn't be surprised if either did just fine. I've kept both in ich-management in the past without issue. Hippo sometimes struggle initially but many fight through it. Still waiting on that achilles or PBT buddy! :D

But do keep us posted with how it works out. Good to hear from you :)

 

[Lasse]

Ask anyone here about the advantages with living rocks. 99 % will say denitrification in deeper holes and channels. However - I doubt that the denitrification rate in these holes is enough (because of no water stream) I do not doubt at all that these anaerobic environments exist in the living rocks. If it is not so - we have been tricked for decades. Of cause - it exist anaerobic zones in our home aquaria especially in the sand. And already in depth of a cm or two. Note - I do not say that this is true but image a tomont falls into the sand, a fish just dig it down into the anoxic zones. Three months later another fish digs it up and voilà. Or it fall down in a hole in a living rock - later on something make it come up in the oxic zones again. Who haven´t heard about ich outbreak after a large cleaning operations? Oh - there is a solution to this - bare bottom, plastic rock, plastic corals and siphoning bottom - after that I can overstock my tank again.


Solution for me – nope. I love my ecological based aquarium with life, life, life and fish.


In order to do that – I must live with the same life strategy that make me 69 years old

If you can´t beat them – join them

Unfortunately, I have not followed this when it comes to people :) :) But on the other hand - it is few I havent beat :) :)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

I threw 5 of them in my tank a few weeks ago. So far they seem fine. :D

I feel most people do it the exact opposite than me and a lot of successful people as we don't care about parasites and they are a non issue. I actually want them and the more the better. All types including velvet.

I bought fish last week and their tanks were full of ich with many dead fish. If your tank is healthy (and I said how to do that) the fish never seem to care.
I put in a hippo tang a few weeks ago and he was scratching in the store and had this weird white spot on him. In a few days he was fine and the big spot disappeared. He stopped scratching and is eating well. He especially likes linguine and clams. :rolleyes:

When I got him



And a few days later. (Excuse him as he is pooping here) Those spots are bubbles, not ich as I know someone would point that out.



A couple of more ich magnets in my tank.



This copperband is 8 or 10 years old.

:)... I was referring to totally 'non-immune' (i.e. never exposed). The only way I guess you could guarantee that is if they came from an aquaculture/lab/breeder. Anything from the ocean likely has at least 'some' adaptive immunity

 

[MnFish1]

It will be interesting to see the results, especially to those of us who use oxydators, I don’t think they actually release hydrogen peroxide in sufficient concentrations to affect these parasites, but I may be wrong on that @Lasse or @atoll may be able to offer more educated opinions.

I am going to order one - I have meant to do it for some time.

 

[Brew12]

I am going to order one - I have meant to do it for some time.

I just ordered one, but not for disease control per say. More for general aquarium health.

With it coming I decided to recalibrate my probes. Of course, with my recent luck, I broke my ORP probe which is what would give me the best indication if the Oxydator is working properly. New probe on order.

 

[MnFish1]

Do you believe there are true hypoxic environments in our reef tanks? I’ve seen debates about that being true or false that were significantly more impassioned than the one on this thread. I don’t have any real basis for an opinion but have seen well respected reefers argue both sides.

I somewhat account for this being true in my frag tank anyway. When I move coral from there to my display tank it gets new frag plugs, dip, and a serious rinse or two with display water to wash away any free swimming parasites. Unless the coral or snail itself is the hypoxic environment, I think I’ve accounted for not transferring those to the display tank as much as humanly possible.

From my understanding - its not the free swimming ones that are a problem in hypoxic environments (Low oxygen). Do you keep fish in your frag tanks? - if not - its not likely that you have CI or velvet (depending on how long you keep them in your frag tank).

I think there is a difference as well (in the debate you mentioned) - I think part of that was 'anoxic' vs 'hypoxic'. There are surely hypoxic areas in some parts of the tank (i.e. a. lower than 'normal' oxygen level. Unfortunately - I dont remember the exact amount of DO2 they were talking about in the study - I'm sure @Humblefish would know.

 

[MnFish1]

I just ordered one, but not for disease control per say. More for general aquarium health.

With it coming I decided to recalibrate my probes. Of course, with my recent luck, I broke my ORP probe which is what would give me the best indication if the Oxydator is working properly. New probe on order.

Right - me to - I figured - it cant hurt (famous last words lol:)