A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

MNFish

Please unsub from all my threads I don't want to communicate with you at all. Of course you're free to wreck them, ride coat tails vs make your own work threads, but I wouldn't do that if another man asked me to vacate. I'd hit ignore, which you should do and I have done, your post today didn't add anything here its just baiting, like 99% of the time when you post in other people's threads, I can link several times you successfully derailed others threads

I'm reading on a work iPad and saw you posted, notice how many years it's been since I posted on a thread you made? Reciprocate that, I don't like your writing style it's annoying. Your persistence in other people's threads is telling/trolling. Make your own threads, I promise not to ever post in them going forward.

Readers:
We will continue to make the custom cycle calls that have lent reliable results for ten straight years here.
Unfortunately - or perhaps fortunately - you don't own this forum, or this thread - it's a discussion board. I just added to the discussion. If you disagree, thats ok. If you have a specific complaint about what I said - I would suggest you use the report button. In the mean time - If I disagree with something you say - I will say it. -

EDIT - and like earlier in September (I believe the 17th - when I agree with you, I'll say that as well.
 
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that's what I see here. I made that happen, it means the only people that suffer from the detracting/constantly derailing posts are readers who are looking for a simple theme in work jobs we're doing and now have a bunch of distracting things to read that are not on topic. can you make that your last post now?

Only a child would continue this baiting when they're directly asked to stop. If any man or woman ever asked me to exit their threads, they'd never hear from me again. I make my own work threads, I don't derail other's works/that's by choice.

Back to the discussion at hand

when I searched google, I'm on page 20 reading still, I not one time saw any cycling works that allowed full bioloading on day one. I have yet to find any cycling post that takes in other people's cycles for live time review. I personally think people are scared to take on live tank cycles...the consequences for a mis call are pronounced, so certainty is the last thing you'll see from forum cycling posts it seems
 
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Okay, so I've read this whole thread now!

Follow up question: Beyond the cycle should the beneficial bacteria present, especially from something like ocean rock, help inhibit forms of undesirable algae growth assuming proper/ regular maintenance?

Does this help skip the ugly stage? Or is the benefit here exclusively related to the cycle?
 
No in my opinion the cycling bacteria don't affect the uglies stage. Cured live rock itself covered in coralline sure helps: coralline resists the attachment of algae via holdfasts. If we searched out let's say 200 threads where cured rock reef tanks with coralline had gha issues, a stark pattern would reveal where the coralline areas were free of algae and the areas in between coralline had the growths. Other uglies constituents like cyano and diatoms and dinos are typically found winning in new systems because the keepers shine way too much light at the start thinking brighter is better and they're stocking the new system quickly using no form of quarantine to identify surfaces with potential harsh invaders. Quarantine isn't just for fish disease it can prevent terrible invasions from hitching into an otherwise uninvaded reef tank

I find white dry rock systems to be the worst uglies magnets in reefing.
 
This is the best way for a new tanker to manage the uglies (derived from several linkable invasion fix threads ran on this site with hundreds of entrants)

- start with cured live rock

- make sure your make water is pure ro/di and zero tds

- don't glue the scape together. Expect to be taking it apart occasionally to scrape off algae and clean off invasions outside the tank without chasing param measurements. You be the cleaner and guide for all surfaces, permit no uglies phase by staying busy. Search out a rip clean thread and know that method.

- don't go strong lighting at the start like the masses do. Don't buy animals thinking they'll help you avoid the uglies, you're the controller not some slugs or snails or crabs.

- don't pile live rock in huge inaccessible stacks, make smaller manageable bommies you can move around, lift out etc for hand guiding

- don't start with fish right off the bat like the masses do and like a skip cycle allows. Start off with corals, add fish later after you've guided the system into compliance without all their extra waste and feed present.



Doing the reverse of what most reefers do will help you manage the uglies. I've had reefs online searchable for 20 years and none of my tanks had the uglies: i don't allow it.

The #1 cause of the uglies is passivity training that a reefer reads and then follows. The #1 prevention for tank uglies is absolutely being resolved to not allow any. There are no reef tank growths that are stronger than the will of a tank owner, we're all just constrained by different rule sets we choose to honor

This entire thread you can see is us dealing with cycling constraints just the same, nearly every linked example here was someone who skip cycled and didn't know it + none of the peers in their post told them

Thank you again very much for posting on topic so we can plan and work your new system, update us with pics when u can
 
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I see, that makes perfect sense. I'm patient, so I can deal with the uglies, but if I can avoid it that sounds great!

I'm not familiar with RIP Clean method, so that'll be the next rabbit hole I gow down.

I do already have Marco rock on the way for the scape. My initial an was to build a scape with the rock, and then cure it in a BRUTE can for a month or 3. Now I think I'm just going to build it, and drop in the live rock. I'll pull the live rock down the road once everything is good and settled (or maybe not if it fits the scape).

Appreciate all the help / info! Will definitely post up a build thread soon.
 
Curious about why remove it at all? Any live rock you add will be the best substrate the tank will ever see, why remove any of it once added

A few weeks to transfer all the bacteria to the dry rocks but it'll take years of contact to bring the white rocks up to half the potential per square inch of that cured portion


for readers who wonder why there's bickering over old vs new cycling science, here's a recap:

-old cycling science: factors nitrite in reef tank cycles.

new cycling science doesn't even own the kit. See any post from Randy HF on reef tank nitrite, search out his name + the word 'nitrite' and look for resounding themes. All information you've read, and I can google, regarding marine tank cycle finish dates involves testing for and assuring nitrite is at zero, as if it mattered in a marine tank cycle. that's #1 differential. old cycling science must know your nitrite levels to determine cycle status and new cycling science does not.

-old cycling science doesn't allow for live rock skip cycles, live rock always has devastating dieoff that registers as API .25 ammonia=the cycle is broken. we're approaching page ten here of constant examples of live rock transfer cycles never breaking. it will be that way on page fifty, a true pattern on file/

-old cycling science believes in reef tank cycle stalling (which means you can't pinpoint the start date for all reef tank cycles they're by old rules open-ended test-based waits to total zero nitrite AND ammonia) search: stalled reef tank cycle. half a million returns, 2 million posts with API at .25 = the cycle must be broken. All articles you've read on cycling and all articles I've googled, including Dr. Tim's macna talk on youtube involves supposed cycle stalls. There are NO articles ever written about aligning forty pages of reef tanks for an exact start date cycle, some determined before they were even assembled. here's a thread doing exactly that:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-unstick-any-seemingly-stuck-cycle.742202/
new cycling science (the link just above aligning reef tank cycles on an exact start date, close-ended known completion date, with no testing) does not believe in cycle stalling. see the thread above.

-old cycling science: the ammonia drop line from a common cycling chart is not true, cycles take anywhere from 3 weeks to 90 days (how long they took to convince api to read yellow is what that means)

new cycling science: go read the threads produced by Dan and Taricha regarding average ammonia control timeframes for common cycling bac, how long is it taking? How many days did we wait in the 40 page false stall thread to begin verifying cycles? how many days is the ammonia drop line on a common cycling chart? (10-12 days)

-old cycling science: picks and chooses when API ammonia is to be believed. Sometimes in a given post API is deemed correct; other times, several nuances to the test such as drop size, fil amounts in the vial, reagent shaking, expiration dates, wait time before rendering the reading are listed by the same parties as why API reads incorrect to the masses. the determination will change to fit the flow of the thread after they join. *expecting a reef tank's nh4 levels to read zero at ALL Times is the #1 hallmark rule from old cycling science. when it reads .25 and that amount is deemed correct by umpires, it means a cycle is broken. even if the full tank is running harmlessly.
here are nine pages of false ammonia alarms triggered solely by the paragraph above on old vs new cycling science, nh4 variance is tripping them all up, none had a broken cycle:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/sustained-ammonia-spikes-are-misreads.802470/
new cycling science does not expect nh4 to be zero in anyone's setting-we don't even require the kit to be ran. we know the mix of test kit drift, error, unstated adulterants added during cycle panic (such as Prime, which causes false readings for ammonia) will never end so viewing the cycle against those kits is a total waste of time. we can use other means to determine cycle readiness

-Visual cue cycle verification. old cycling science does not know that growths of common marine uglies phases only happen after ammonia control was established, not prior. there's an order of ops to things that deposit on a reef surface, old cycling science only cares if API says your ammonia and nitrite is zero, they don't factor visual benthic growth timing.

someone search out one single example on the entire internet of a cycle umpire validating a cycle close date solely off a tank pic (no test reading) where common algae or cyano or diatoms have bloomed in the tank-in-question. old cycling science still has that keeper testing and trying to align api with the truth; new cycling science knows any reef running long enough to have new invasion growths has ran past the date a cycling chart shows ammonia to be controlled, so it's cycled.


there are about fifteen more differences to state but it would take up 2 pages.

does old vs new cycling science seem to matter now? it influences purchase markets to the tune of millions of dollars

old cycling science adherents are constantly buying replacement bottle bac for claimed dead bottles, new cycling science (the forty page false stall thread) has NEVER advised anyone to go buy another bottle of bacteria: how are our results?

there's neverending conflict between new and old cycling science. its a race for the best procedure for this aspect of reefing (to save the most animals)
 
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Mostly just for aesthetics and space. I had a few different scape ideas in my head and wanted to see if I could execute them. Since the tank is only 10G not sure I'll have room for everything.
 
@brandon429
Very interesting thread, it makes a lot of sense to me coming from freshwater aquariums, since you can skip the cycling process or at least shorten it if you use cycled media in freshwater tanks, which is what I did when I set up a second freshwater tank and had no issues, so why wouldn't it work in a reef tank.

I do have a question for you though, I am very new to reef tanks and have set up a nano 6.5G tank that I plan to have a rock flower anemone garden in and some sexy shrimp to host them. My question is this, the tank has been set up with saltwater in it for 2 weeks now, I used Caribsea fiji pink live sand and some life rock that I ordered online, it is the rock that is coated with bacteria, but it came dry. Since both the sand and rock have been in saltwater for 2 weeks, am I okay to add the rock flower nems? I wasn't sure since the rock came dry if the process would be a bit different.

Link to the rock that I used if its helpful: https://waterboxaquariums.com/products/liferock-nano-reef-kit-2-nano-arches-plus-small-original
 
no that's more of a common wait-time cycle where you need to add feed and bottle bac

the surfaces really might be coated I know the descriptor says, and nothing surprises me about how they can package bacteria nowadays, but for the most part people just add bottle bac to these systems and some feed and it's cycled in about ten days wait time...like the ammonia line from a cycling chart always shows. if you would have bought cured live rock from a pet store and set it in, that's the skip cycle we've been working with here.

nobody has taken time to track out whether or not the painted-bacteria liferock works on the site. if it's real bacteria then yes it may be ready/2 weeks wait time is longer than the ammonia drop date on a cycling chart but a common thing missing from your cycle was a feed source. if you want to get it ready just get a nine dollar common bottle of cycling bacteria and put it in, add what you will, and you have a common bottle bac skip cycle like fifty thousand examples show online where they put fish and Dr Tims bacteria in on day one and the fish are fine. the starting bioload you have planned isn't any type of real test for any brand of bac, that's a low initial loading.

the risk to your anems and the shrimp isn't in the cycle its that the dry rock system doesn't have an established food production web like cured live rock does, there are retail feeds that can make up for that initially. be changing water assertively every few days/ a small %/ to guide the system into stocked running once you add life to it and also so you can use those water change intervals to guide out/clean out the growths that make up the uglies in new dry rock systems. once you add light, animals and feed to the mix the uglies are likely to begin: don't accept them, clean them as needed and keep the system clean.
 
I too have never cycled any planted tank I owned. I set them up, packed them with plants, and was off to the races. live plants work like our live rock skip cycles do here in many ways.
 
no that's more of a common wait-time cycle where you need to add feed and bottle bac

the surfaces really might be coated I know the descriptor says, and nothing surprises me about how they can package bacteria nowadays, but for the most part people just add bottle bac to these systems and some feed and it's cycled in about ten days wait time...like the ammonia line from a cycling chart always shows. if you would have bought cured live rock from a pet store and set it in, that's the skip cycle we've been working with here.

nobody has taken time to track out whether or not the painted-bacteria liferock works on the site. if it's real bacteria then yes it may be ready/2 weeks wait time is longer than the ammonia drop date on a cycling chart but a common thing missing from your cycle was a feed source. if you want to get it ready just get a nine dollar common bottle of cycling bacteria and put it in, add what you will, and you have a common bottle bac skip cycle like fifty thousand examples show online where they put fish and Dr Tims bacteria in on day one and the fish are fine. the starting bioload you have planned isn't any type of real test for any brand of bac, that's a low initial loading.

the risk to your anems and the shrimp isn't in the cycle its that the dry rock system doesn't have an established food production web like cured live rock does, there are retail feeds that can make up for that initially. be changing water assertively every few days/ a small %/ to guide the system into stocked running once you add life to it and also so you can use those water change intervals to guide out/clean out the growths that make up the uglies in new dry rock systems. once you add light, animals and feed to the mix the uglies are likely to begin: don't accept them, clean them as needed and keep the system clean.
It is interesting that bottled bacteria instructions are not followed by many people. Many of products say add bacteria and fish on day 1 (which I have done many times) - with both dry and live rock. There does not seem to be any rationale not to do so. This thread is quite interesting https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-much-ammonia-does-your-feeding-produce.830084/
 
Okay, I know my LFS has some cured live rock, I could find some small pieces to add as well, but I do have bottle bac and have added it to the my nano reef like the instructions on the bottle say, was more or less just curious about the process since this is my first reef tank, I guess its time to get the livestock :)
 
in essence if you use live rock and the appropriate amount even with Dry rock, you won't have a cycle. same with bottle bacteria. There is no wait period for bacteria to start working. If it is alive and there is enough, itll be fine. What takes long in cycling is the bacteria first needs a food source to feed and multiply. tanks with dry sand and rock no bacteria added do not have that food source. people will either add animals to cycle or more popular now shrimp or ammonia dosing. then you can go from there. it takes longer due to having to build up and establish bacteria in stages. with using a certain amount of live rock, depending on load you plan initially, you wont see a cycle as bacteria are already in your system and multiplying. You will have all the bacteria you need.

Same with freshwater. I use live plants and add a bit of bacteria in a bottle lol that I don't have cycles. Bottle bacteria isnt needed. Its just ease of mind for me.

I believe I explained it simply lol.
 
agreed


but there's one thing that sets this thread apart from all the rest on cycling

the infallible nature of live rock transfers, 100% skip cycle. dead bottle bac won't insta cycle a tank. although the % risk is so low from dead bottle bac I never factor it in my bottle bac cycle opines, it's still a possibility and nobody can just look at a bottle of bac and tell you if it's dead or alive, you have to play the % game or simply just verify bac activity if you're a lucky able wielder of API tests or other ammonia kits.

but here, via new cycling science, we don't need anyone to tell us if rocks are skip cycle live rock or not, because we can see the benthic growth cues on the rock itself. when I walk into my pet store, nobody has to direct me to the live rock bin and I don't have to ask them how long it's been in stock to ensure they're not tricking me by selling me essentially dead rock that has only been hydrated overnite (as if any pet stores do this)

I can look at the suspect live rock, and see coralline. I can see jutting little vermitid bstrds lol dotting the rock. I can see algae. I can see six arms of an ophiurioid micro brittle star poking out and waving in the wind.

and per updated cycling science we know those attachments by rule come after cycling bac, never before, and that is why this thread is not going to ever have a failed cycle though if I keep playing my % risk on unverified bottle bac cycles we sure might lose one, one day twenty years from now.

If at all possible I'd really like to keep this one particular thread streamlined solely for live rocks taken from a pet store. not dry ones, not uncured ocean rocks from TBS, but the unique and totally sure niche of pet store cured rocks/guaranteed skip cycle rocks that no reef article has ever delineated as a infallible skip cycle gold

*I don't mind the mention or an actual job of blended dry/live cured setups, because the cured portion is so powerful it'll still be a skip cycle if the rocks are mingled in the display area among the dry ones.

This type of cycle we do here is the most solid, assured, testless can't fail cycle above all in reefing. it's #1 best for any tank, all other cycles are slightly inferior in strength diversity and instant carry ability and with slight risk of noncompliance although I'm not going to start worrying about dead bottle bac any time soon given the dilutions we use and the sparse initial stocking for most setups. this is the only kind of cycle I've ever actually personally done in my home for the countless pico and nano reefs uploaded.
 
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If it wasnt for bottle bac I added originally, mine would be perfect as I have the data recorded. but I do 100 percent water changes. which means I fill up about 3 times each water change. technically this is not much different than taking out live sand and rock and moving to new tank. in fact my other tank I had 5G, I would remove everything, clean the glass and put it all back with new water. even have videos of my water changes on youtube.
 
Just wanted to stop by and say that this thread has been a huge revelation for me. I'm just about to set-up a new Waterbox AIO Peninsula 15 Gallon. I will be following the methods described in this thread and will provide updates.

I plan to do the following in order:

1) Start the tank with live rock from LFS - will only be buying rock that visually has been live for years (ie. covered with coraline and/or other life). I will be aiming for around 10 lbs.

2) Will add AF Bio Sand

3) Will add Corals (Softies & LPS only), mostly plugs/frags

4) Monitor and test parameters. Hoping to be able to add fish (3 max) and a couple of shrimp in 4-6 weeks

Will definitely be back to update! Thanks again and let me know your thoughts on this plan :)
 
It's perfect. The only thing that can go wrong is if you're testing for ammonia or nitrite / don't include those tests don't run them

We've been free of nitrite and ammonia testing these years here, with all these tanks, because the system is trustworthy and using non digital ammonia tests isn't trustworthy. You'll get a misread, an over-read, report it as a broken cycle and doubt will be inserted for the first time.

But if you simply do not own an ammonia or nitrite test kit then nothing will go wrong. Test for anything you want but not those two.
 
I'm shocked whenever I see such live rock in an LFS that isn't in one of their display tanks. Usually the live rock in with their stock is bombarded with constant low levels of copper.
 
No I have never seen that in 20 years of reefing online, in person or at pet stores etc. I have never in my life met or seen a store that sells coral who'd contam rocks with copper without telling the buyers. file that risk in the same bin as the fear of buying live rocks marked from a bin that aren't truly live.

all reefs I've ever put online/many/were ran as pet store live rock skip cycles and copper simply never factored then, or if I went to Austin and repeated the process today, it's just a zero percent factor risk.

a true and searchable and daily-encountered risk however would be skipping fallow process and inputting fish too quickly, inputting uronema that can't be eradicated and having to start over. skipping the cycle is easy, avoiding fish disease is not easy whatsoever.
 

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