BIG AND LOUD CONTROLLER COMPARISON THREAD

[ReefRocker]

Do other controllers have the "multi-user" setups like the Apex does? Where you can add a user and give them various levels of control? I have programmed other peoples apex systems "remotely" while sitting on my couch enjoying a beverage, with a few texts back and forth with the owner.....this speaks to the large user-base of support, which is very valuable imho.

I don't know about the other controller companies, but I do know that GHL offers this through their myGHL cloud service. I took this off of their DEMO myGHL account:

Best of all, it's open to ProfiLux controllers, Doser 2 units, and Mitras LX 7 LEDs.

The myGHL demo is open for anybody to use at their website. Just click on myGHL-Demo at the top left side of the screen:
https://myghl.com/default

 

[reefwiser]

Actually the Profilux does monitor power and has for quite some time now.:) I think if you see My over view video that Dennis posted I mention that.:)
GHL hasn't gotten into the Pump business like Apex as there are a ton of great companies making pumps for the hobby. I would rather they spend time on controllers and monitoring and do that well than compete with other companies that do other products well. They have had flow monitoring for quite sometime as well. I have powerbars generally at point of use so I have them in various places that need to be controlled. Coming from an industrial control background I don't like to place all my power control eggs in one basket. Be there done that years ago at work don't do it that way anymore. Found out the hard way about that one.:) You end up losing power to everything if you have an event that takes a unit out. We now wire up power in groups so it doesn't take out the whole unit at one time and it is faster to repair and bring power back online. Every minute I am down at work cost the company 300,000 dollars.:)

 

[IronVulture]

Thank you. That is what I didn't quite understand. So can valves be opened and closed based upon pH(other parameters) and flow?

Actually yes the apex can switch on/off solenoid valves based on any parameters you set.

 

[IronVulture]

Actually the Profilux does monitor power and has for quite some time now.:) I think if you see My over view video that Dennis posted I mention that.:)
GHL hasn't gotten into the Pump business like Apex as there are a ton of great companies making pumps for the hobby. I would rather they spend time on controllers and monitoring and do that well than compete with other companies that do other products well. They have had flow monitoring for quite sometime as well. I have powerbars generally at point of use so I have them in various places that need to be controlled. Coming from an industrial control background I don't like to place all my power control eggs in one basket. Be there done that years ago at work don't do it that way anymore. Found out the hard way about that one.:) You end up losing power to everything if you have an event that takes a unit out. We now wire up power in groups so it doesn't take out the whole unit at one time and it is faster to repair and bring power back online. Every minute I am down at work cost the company 300,000 dollars.:)

My Apex controls 4 power bars which are split between 3 separate breakers. If any one fails I do get an alert.

 

[Terence]

Actually the Profilux does monitor power and has for quite some time now.:) I think if you see My over view video that Dennis posted I mention that.:)

Are you sure that is power in watts - or current in Amps. There is a difference. Also, can it roll up the costing and graphing as shown above? I haven't played with it in a while so it might very well have all that now on the cloud.

They have had flow monitoring for quite sometime as well.

Yes, and the Apex will have the FMK - Flow Monitoring Kit in just a few short weeks. Many of those in our NSI group have already installed them and are using them. Very reasonably priced too - it will be under $200 for the FMM module and three flow sensors. Additional sensors for 2" and 1/4" are also available and leak detection sensors, optical sensors, and devices like the PMUP pump or solenoid can be plugged into the FMM as well. What sensors does GHL offer and how much are they?

I have powerbars generally at point of use so I have them in various places that need to be controlled. Coming from an industrial control background I don't like to place all my power control eggs in one basket. Be there done that years ago at work don't do it that way anymore. Found out the hard way about that one.:) You end up losing power to everything if you have an event that takes a unit out. We now wire up power in groups so it doesn't take out the whole unit at one time and it is faster to repair and bring power back online. Every minute I am down at work cost the company 300,000 dollars.:)

Very good point. That is why on many medium to large aquariums we like to see multiple circuits and then put separate Energy Bars on each one. Also, the Energy Bars are made so that should the Apex itself fail and stop communicating with them, they will go to a preset fallback state. Additionally, we have a battery backup methodology you can use to get alerts and do failover.

 

[Robthorn]

Orange is the new Black.

Ewwwww

 

[Terence]

:D Just having fun now...

 

[Daniel@R2R]

:D Just having fun now...

2 questions:

1) Are those all yours?

2) If so, is Neptune hiring? :D :D

 

[rygh]

So my experiences from things I have done/used:

DIY-Arduino:
Ok for a basic controller. Too much work for something fancy.
Very solid, but Ethernet connectivity is a huge pain.

DIY-Particle Photon
Updating to that was a mistake. Great network connectivity, but not reliable.
Up-time of 2 months or so is fine for fun little projects, but not a controller.

Reef Angel
A great low-cost controller.
If you are on a budget, fairly technical, and don't need the fancy web interface controls, I highly recommend it.
But not fancy. Quality is OK. Good for low-cost, but not exactly top-notch.
Great support. I had the main board fail, and it was quickly replaced free even though it was over a year.
KEY: If you are DIY at all, you can completely reprogram it. Open source!!!
If you are not so technical, the setup is not entirely intuitive.

Apex Classic
Great software, especially Fusion. Tons of hardware + software features. Lots of reviews already in this thread.
But given the high cost, I have to ding them on the relay quality.
I had a problem with one of my ports staying on for a bit during power-up.
Because of that, I search at lot, and it seems there are a LOT of reports of relay issues.
1) The TRIAC ports can get stuck ON on certain low current devices.
Yes, rare, but given the consequences to a tank, why was this design not fixed?
(TRIACs have that issue, but the circuits to fix it are well known)
2) The normal relay ports seem to fail a fair amount.
Perhaps not the best relays?

 

[BCSreef]

Been using a ReefKeeper (RKE) for about 6 years. Have not used the other controllers. Overall, just fairly happy. No major disasters, shorts, fires, lost livestock etc. It seems to work well. I did have a SL-2 module (pH, temp, switches. etc - $100) go out after warranty. A few comment on the RKE:

• Does almost everything the Apex and GHL do.
• Reliability - great!
• Documentation and forum not the best. Some of the forums don't have posts for years. Some don't get answered. Frustrating!
• The one time I neeeded customer service and e-mailed, i got same day response (2 hours!) and a solution.
• Powerbars - I have 4 with 4 outlets, 2 on relays, no issues of any kind.
• Head unit a bit difficult to program, but the PC - based app is pretty easy and works well.
• pH - not easy (not possible?) to do two point calibrations at 4 and 7 for Ca reactor probe. & and 10 are fairly simple.
• Need to buy NET module and WiFi access point if you want wireless/WiFi to router. Also need to change some router settings. Easy for me, but could be hard for some.
• No Apps for phone or tablets that I know of.
• Web App allows you to monitor but not control that I know of. My Web App no longer works. It only sees a few of the modules. I had to buy monthly subscription GoToMyPC for a laptop USB'ed to the system to have full access to modules and any remote control. $$$!
• Inexpensive to start with, but after you add modules, costs get out of hand!

I may sound somewhat negative, but I'm demanding of my gear! The only reason I am following is because I'm thinking of upgrading to Apex, GHL or Archon.

I hope the above helps. Thanks to all the previous posters for the valuable info!

Bob

 

[Water Dog]

BTW, I'm sure GHL has seen this thread without someone contacting them. And IMO, kudos for them staying out of it. That says a lot.
I've seen what happens when multiple manufacturers get into threads like this.
Let the users speak for the products.

I couldn't agree more. And FWIW, this is coming from Apex user.

 

[Terence]

So my experiences from things I have done/used:

DIY-Arduino:
Ok for a basic controller. Too much work for something fancy.
Very solid, but Ethernet connectivity is a huge pain.

DIY-Particle Photon
Updating to that was a mistake. Great network connectivity, but not reliable.
Up-time of 2 months or so is fine for fun little projects, but not a controller.

Reef Angel
A great low-cost controller.
If you are on a budget, fairly technical, and don't need the fancy web interface controls, I highly recommend it.
But not fancy. Quality is OK. Good for low-cost, but not exactly top-notch.
Great support. I had the main board fail, and it was quickly replaced free even though it was over a year.
KEY: If you are DIY at all, you can completely reprogram it. Open source!!!
If you are not so technical, the setup is not entirely intuitive.

Apex Classic
Great software, especially Fusion. Tons of hardware + software features. Lots of reviews already in this thread.
But given the high cost, I have to ding them on the relay quality.
I had a problem with one of my ports staying on for a bit during power-up.
Because of that, I search at lot, and it seems there are a LOT of reports of relay issues.
1) The TRIAC ports can get stuck ON on certain low current devices.
Yes, rare, but given the consequences to a tank, why was this design not fixed?
(TRIACs have that issue, but the circuits to fix it are well known)
2) The normal relay ports seem to fail a fair amount.
Perhaps not the best relays?

Excellent info on your experiences. Some feedback on the relays, the new Energy Bar 832 (and the Energy Bar 4 for that matter) all have relays for every outlet. In the past this was not done because so many customers back in the day had powerheads they wanted to switch off and on a lot to do pulsing. The clicking sound of the relays was a major complaint in a prior model so we moved to the Triac. Now with all the new powerheads, this is no longer a consumer concern so we are back to relays.

Another note on relays since it was mentioned that the GHL Power Bar used 15A relays and our outlets are "rated by us" for 7A. I checked with engineering this morning and in fact the Energy Bar 832 actually has 20A relays inside. The reason we do not rate it at 20A or even 15A is because while the relay is rated for that, customers running the rated level on any relay shorten its possible lifespan. Also, since the mains are normally limited to 15A, and the breaker on the power bar is as well, who would ever want to load it that high with normal aquarium equipment and not be able to use the other outlets?

 

[morpheas]

By code, unless you have a dedicated line, the maximum rating of anything should be 15A (with fuse for that). For dedicated lines, 20A-30A is possible (depending on area, permitting, city code etc) BUT you have to have the plug with one sideways prong (for US). This indicates a dedicated line. Anything over 30A you need local disconnect box.

One more point since it was mentioned before. A momentary over-current is a different thing than the current rating of the machine. The quoted rating from @Terence is continuous amp rating. I am not sure what the momentary is for the EB8 but I'm pretty sure it's over 100A since you can plug coolers (with compressors) on which draw momentary high currents. Momentary over-currents go through breakers and most fuses (the EB8's included) by design (for mentioned applications). Those are called slow blow fuses/breakers. I am sure GHL is rated for similar ratings.

Maybe an electrician can chime in with more details if needed. I know enough to be dangerous ;) haha

 

[hybridazn]

When it comes down to it, I feel the ghl and apex are pretty close in comparison. Meaning they do all the things you want in a controller and they do it well. When I was choosing a controller years back I went with the apex for one main reason, customer support/ease of contact. They have had a strong presence on the bigger forums and also having their own dedicated forum helps too. The ease of programming, be it as simple as their wizard or finding help online to figure out more complex programs is insanely easy as a copy/paste.

The other factor that made me decide on the apex over the ghl was price. For half the price of a ghl I got into a full apex with additional modules. The apex was bnib but the modules were 2nd hand but still the savings was ideal.

So with that being said when it comes down to these 2 great controllers is, can you afford the Ferrari or will a really good mercedes do the job?

I know my answer... :)

 

[Daniel@R2R]

When it comes down to it, I feel the ghl and apex are pretty close in comparison. Meaning they do all the things you want in a controller and they do it well. When I was choosing a controller years back I went with the apex for one main reason, customer support/ease of contact. They have had a strong presence on the bigger forums and also having their own dedicated forum helps too. The ease of programming, be it as simple as their wizard or finding help online to figure out more complex programs is insanely easy as a copy/paste.

The other factor that made me decide on the apex over the ghl was price. For half the price of a ghl I got into a full apex with additional modules. The apex was bnib but the modules were 2nd hand but still the savings was ideal.

So with that being said when it comes down to these 2 great controllers is, can you afford the Ferrari or will a really good mercedes do the job?

I know my answer... :)

It also helps that Apex keeps rolling out all those toys you like to play with. :-)

 

[Terence]

2 questions:

1) Are those all yours?

2) If so, is Neptune hiring? :D :D

You clearly overestimate the size of the marine aquarium business. :)

 

[hybridazn]

It also helps that Apex keeps rolling out all those toys you like to play with. :)

Indeed! Maybe @Terence can help with that!

Hahahaha ;)

(Shameless NSI plug)

 

[Robthorn]

I couldn't agree more. And FWIW, this is coming from Apex user.

Ghl is here and commenting. It hasn't been a you suck from either so I am good with it.
There is a lot of useful info here.

I am just bummed by the continued let down and unreliability of my favorite piece of equipment of all my reeefing years. (Over 20). And then the lack of give a .... on fixing the issues. :-( Good luck in your future and if you get your reliability in order shoot me a message.

 

[Water Dog]

My concern is this devolving from and end user comparison thread and into a sponsored advertisement.

 

[Terence]

Ghl is here and commenting. It hasn't been a you suck from either so I am good with it.
There is a lot of useful info here.

Thank you. I am trying to provide info where I can and ask questions that might make us all a bit more informed. Myself included.

Other than Mattias, what user is a GHL employee or posting officially on their behalf?