Bolus dosing

[BeanAnimal]

So ignoring the distractions about user evidence and barbs -

• Bicarbonate Saturated Solution:
  • he claims contributes 0.4 dKH to alkalinity.
• Additional “Extras” Adding 0.08 - 0.1 dKH:
  • He mentions that “extras” in the product add between 0.08 and 0.1 dKH on top of the bicarbonate’s contribution.
• Carbonate Saturation and pH:
  • He says a fully saturated carbonate solution would hold up to 216 grams per liter, while his bicarbonate solution holds 100 grams per liter. (about 2x as we would expect)
  • He says in essence that his product can't be carbonate because a saturated carbonate solution would would decompose due to high pH (around 11.4), making it impractical.
• Lower pH Advantage of Bicarbonate:
  • He claims that their bicarbonate solution has a pH of 8.3, which is significantly lower than that of a saturated carbonate solution, thus reducing the risk of instability or decomposition.

So he does insist it is bicarbonate with something special added. If we ignore the special extra alkalinity "extras" that leads us back to a non alkalinity additive that would aid in saturation and stabilization to get from ~0.25 to ~0.4 super saturation. At the same time he admits that bicarbonate is saturated at 100 grams per liter and that is closer to 0.25 dKH. So in circles we go.

Either he is not being truthful about the product contents or the calculator is wrong - aside from all of the "bolus" nonsense.

I don't see the use in responding to him on YT, as no matter what is said he resorts to "user evidence" and "try it and see" along with other deflections. It is frustrating, as there is no language or context barrier and the "word games" are infinity frustrating.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t see a way that a sodium carbonate solution decomposes due to its pH (or any other reason).

Where is this extra hidden alk component supposed to be? Are we to understand it is claimed to be in the alk part?

As I showed above, it cannot be in the alk part.

IR matches sodium bicarbonate.
Instant alk potency in water matches sodium bicarbonate.

Sodium bicarbonate plus something else (such as sodium formate) would match neither of these things.

And what happened to the crystal precipitation theory?

 

[ReneReef]

So he does insist it is bicarbonate with something special added. If we ignore the special extra alkalinity "extras" that leads us back to a non alkalinity additive that would aid in saturation and stabilization to get from ~0.25 to ~0.4 super saturation. At the same time he admits that bicarbonate is saturated at 100 grams per liter and that is closer to 0.25 dKH. So in circles we go.

Seems like he’s just pulling random numbers out of his hat.

For this all to be contained in a 100grams of powder, these claims suggest that the specials something has a negative weight, but can still add 1000 KH to the stock solution, while at the same time ensuring sodiumbicarbonate can be supersaturated to 4000KH.

I think the buffer system breaking sounds relatively likely now… :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

 

[BeanAnimal]

I don't know that he is stating 100g of powder. The response is a bit vague.

1 - bicarbonate
2 - somehow super saturated to 0.4
3 - some other "not carbonate" addition that contributes another 0.1

--- all per 10ml of solution per 100ml of system volume. I have not looked at the mixing instructions to see what the mass per volume of the solution is. I suppose that would not be a bad idea, but I am buried in work today.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just a reminder,

This thread, like all threads at Reef2Reef, is governed by the Reef2Reef terms of service.

Be sure any comments posted focus on facts and ideas and do not devolve into name calling.

Carry on…

 

[ReneReef]

I don't know that he is stating 100g of powder. The response is a bit vague.

1 - bicarbonate
2 - somehow super saturated to 0.4
3 - some other "not carbonate" addition that contributes another 0.1

--- all per 10ml of solution per 100ml of system volume. I have not looked at the mixing instructions to see what the mass per volume of the solution is. I suppose that would not be a bad idea, but I am buried in work today.

The 100grams refers to the mixing instructions on the bucket. 500grams to make 5 liters.
I see now, I should have mentioned this in my post…

 

[Garf]

And what happened to the crystal precipitation theory?

How about it's predecessor, the carbonic acid theory ?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How about it's predecessor, the carbonic acid theory ?

It's like debating the evidence, or lack thereof, of bacteria in Vibrant with avidhexagrammid on that Vibrant thread. Twisting and turning explanations, all of which take time and effort to debunk, and often sound convincing to casual readers.

 

[rtparty]

The marketing side of it is actually pretty smart….misleading and unethical….but business smart

They have literally recreated the 90s and 2000s but sold it as something “new and different”

Crank your LEDs up 20%:
We were all running way higher PAR with halides and T5s. Remember the days of wanting 700 or 800 PAR on our SPS and nems?


Dose all the alkalinity at once:
We were doing that for decades before dosing pumps became a thing. We were using bicarbonate because of the pH spike from carbonate. Anyone else remember having to find medical dosing pumps to dose additives?

Wonder when we will see someone sell the under gravel filter as some improvement

 

[SliceGolfer]

 

[Garf]

It's like debating the evidence, or lack thereof, of bacteria in Vibrant with avidhexagrammid on that Vibrant thread. Twisting and turning explanations, all of which take time and effort to debunk, and often sound convincing to casual readers.

About 10 or 15 mins prior to the clip I posted Doug loses Claude's picture feed. Doug thinks someone has taken over his monitor screen, called "Sam Sung". It made my eyes leak a little bit

 

[IntrinsicReef]

Wonder when we will see someone sell the under gravel filter as some improvement

Tired of daily dosing of Nitrate and Phosphate!?! Try the new Sub-Aquaticus for continuous 24/7 nitrogen and phosphorus release! All while increasing your tanks bio-diversity!

warning: may or may not cause old tank syndrome

 

[rishma]

Is there a purpose of the incorrect alkalinity calculator? I cannot figure it out. Maybe I missed the angle. Why not make it accurate? That seems like much less hassle than creative arguments.

 

[Garf]

Is there a purpose of the incorrect alkalinity calculator? I cannot figure it out. Maybe I missed the angle. Why not make it accurate? That seems like much less hassle than creative arguments.

They claim it is correct.

 

[Garf]

For what it's worth, it may always have been wrong. Claude has implied the formula hasn't changed, even though I remember hearing it somewhere, don't know where though. It doesn't help that the calcium is mega strength really as large disparities may go undetected.

What better way to detect an issue than throw it all in at once and start testing stuff, lol.

 

[rishma]

They claim it is correct.

Yes, I got that. I was wondering if they actually don’t know it’s incorrect, like they really believe it’s right, or if there is some reason they would want to argue it’s correct because it helps business somehow.

 

[Pod_01]

We (and FM that I have seen) have not addressed the calcium part of the equation. If the calcium part contains a significant amount of calcium formate (like AFR), that would give a delated alk response while organisms metabolize it to form detectable alk. I've not seen any discussion of the possibility, and it certainly is not part of the invisible microcrystal idea put forth by FM.

The FM equivalent of Balling Part C (assuming one uses it) could contain magnesium formate and do a similar thing.

I've not seen any discussion of when the calcium part or the FM Part C equivalent are supposed to be added, and how these theoretical possibilities relate to the delayed alk response claimed.

For completeness here are the other components of the system and I re took the Alk mix.
Alk:

Calcium:

There are some ingredient in calcium.

Trace1:

Trace2: This has the peptides!!!

Trace3:

The directions, dose what the tank consumes:

I don’t have Mg, when I used the system Mg was always in range.

Hopefully someone can figure out where the phantom alk resides.

 

[Garf]

Hopefully someone can figure out where the phantom alk resides.

I guess it never left Germany.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Yes, I got that. I was wondering if they actually don’t know it’s incorrect, like they really believe it’s right, or if there is some reason they would want to argue it’s correct because it helps business somehow.

Does it help sell the idea that the expected dose of alk was supposed to raise the tank to xxx but instead some of it will be released slowly throughout the day?

In otherwords, the calculator confirms their position that alk gets released slowly throughout the day. How else could you explain dosing 2dkh worth only raised the tank 0.4dkh?

 

[rishma]

Does it help sell the idea that the expected dose of alk was supposed to raise the tank to xxx but instead some of it will be released slowly throughout the day?

In otherwords, the calculator confirms their position that alk gets released slowly throughout the day. How else could you explain dosing 2dkh worth only raised the tank 0.4dkh?

Ah, I get it. Part of the pitch is some alk is released over time. Like formate in AFR.