Causes for high aluminum

[Curiousbranching]

Dose your tank with 2 ml per (100 litres of tank volume) per day of a solution made up of 50% vinegar and 50% vodka, do that every single day and forget about phosphate and nitrate the coral will eat the bacteria that grows from this dosing. You will not be able to measure any phosphate or nitrates but the corals will look great with good colour
Its a very old method from the 70's but it works

That’s exactly what I’m doing—I have my dosing pump directly hooked up to a bottle of 80-proof vodka. I don’t use vinegar because it produces too much bacterial biomass, which clogs my filter socks too quickly.

I keep my N at 2-5 ppm and P at 10-20 ppb by dosing daily. I’m not entirely sure if ultra-low NP levels are the reason dinos thrive, but if I let them drop too low, I’ll definitely see dinos pop up within days. For reference, my tank is mostly natural live rock and sand, with a few liters of Matrix. It’s been running for a few years, so I’d assume my microbial diversity is pretty solid.

Do you know why some tanks with undetectable NP don’t get dinos? I’d love to hear your thoughts.

 

[Mike Sydney]

That’s exactly what I’m doing—I have my dosing pump directly hooked up to a bottle of 80-proof vodka. I don’t use vinegar because it produces too much bacterial biomass, which clogs my filter socks too quickly.

I keep my N at 2-5 ppm and P at 10-20 ppb by dosing daily. I’m not entirely sure if ultra-low NP levels are the reason dinos thrive, but if I let them drop too low, I’ll definitely see dinos pop up within days. For reference, my tank is mostly natural live rock and sand, with a few liters of Matrix. It’s been running for a few years, so I’d assume my microbial diversity is pretty solid.

Do you know why some tanks with undetectable NP don’t get dinos? I’d love to hear your thoughts.

I don't get any dinos, I know that dinos need silica so sand is not good, coral fragments are really good, much better than sand (no silica) , replace your sand with coral fragments (about 1mm size)

 

[ReneReef]

Do you mean to say that quarts sand is no good? Who uses quarts sand in a reef tank?

Sand is defined by its grain size, not by chemical make-up.

Sand used by everyone in the reefing hobby is aragonite sand. I have yet to come across someone using quarts sand.

Aragonite sand is calcium carbonate.
Nothing wrong with that. Also, Dinos don’t need silicate, its diatoms that do.

 

[ReneReef]

Even if one were to use quartz sand, could you explain to me how how quartz (silicon dioxide) is comsumed by dinos, diatoms or any other organism? Or how quartz dissolves in water to form dissolved silicate in the water column?

I believe the answers are: 'no its not' and 'no it doesn't' respectively.

 

[Miami Reef]

I don't get any dinos, I know that dinos need silica so sand is not good, coral fragments are really good, much better than sand (no silica) , replace your sand with coral fragments (about 1mm size)

Dinoflagellates don’t consume silica.

 

[braaap]

It might be for The Fear Of God from Miami "A Mistake" in the result
Aluminium generally does not dissolve too well in Sea Water, which is why it's a popular material to build boats out of. Naturally, seawater contains relatively low concentrations of dissolved aluminium, around 0.5 micrograms per litre (0.5ug/l) in open ocean surface waters so the limit they set is wrong about five times too low and inconsistent with the environment.
How old is your tank

Test error is possible. It’s 18 months old.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I know TCIP well as a scientist.
The problem with TCIP is that Aluminum Oxide or Bauxite will be reported as Aluminium, in this form it does not present a problem it is abundant in the environment. The reason is people who are not degree chemists are running amok with this equipment, and when computer says , computer must be right!
Marine pure for example has an amount of bauxite in its composition, and this can cause this false reading, along with other common items such as pump wear rotors and some substrates

You are making the mistake of taking a fact and extrapolating it to a situation where it may not apply.

Of course I agree that particulates of aluminum oxide the water will read by icp as aluminum. That was a major focus of my study and the follow up work suggested by Seachem.

That does not mean that all detected aluminum is particulate. It isn’t.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I tried the nice approach buddy, but I got gaslighted by someone who is clearly not a chemist.

you are now claiming I’m not a chemist? You are in for a surprise, I think.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Twaddle Randy , when you actually find out that Aluminium Oxide is stable in seawater an apology will not be required , just go silent and fade away

Ok, I certainly agree to apologize in this or any case where I am wrong. I have done so in the past, but this is not one of them.

 

[purpfish]

lol that escalated quickly

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

As for bauxite, bauxite is a sedimentary rock composed of aluminum minerals such as gibbsite, boehmite, and diaspore, which are also all considered water insoluble except under extreme conditions: high temperature combined with the presence of strong acids or bases, which are very far from the conditions normally found in the oceans or aquariums

Since there are multiple threads running on this topic, I don't want to cross post to every one, but that statement is wrong because the things you post think that 27 ug/L solubility is essentially none. To a reefer it is not none.

I discuss that here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/where-is-aluminum-coming-from.1097793/page-3#post-13455123

 

[commod0re]

Since there are multiple threads running on this topic, I don't want to cross post to every one, but that statement is wrong because the things you post think that 27 ug/L solubility is essentially none. To a reefer it is not none.

I discuss that here:

That’s true of aluminum hydroxide, which was barely mentioned, but it is not true of aluminum oxide. Aluminum oxide only turns into hydroxide under unlikely conditions in an aquarium: low pH combined with already high concentrations of free aluminum. Without acidic conditions this reaction does not occur

Find me a source that isn’t yourself to corroborate your claim on aluminum oxide being water soluble to literally any degree in typical ocean or aquarium conditions, because so far I am unable to find even one on my own, the literture all says it is completely water insoluble. 0 ppb. Same for bauxite. Otherwise, this all amounts to “trust me bro” and you’re spreading FUD

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That’s true of aluminum hydroxide, which was barely mentioned, but it is not true of aluminum oxide. Aluminum oxide only turns into hydroxide under unlikely conditions in an aquarium: low pH combined with already high concentrations of free aluminum. Without acidic conditions this reaction does not occur

Find me a source that isn’t yourself to corroborate your claim on aluminum oxide being water soluble to literally any degree in typical ocean or aquarium conditions, because so far I am unable to find even one on my own, the literture all says it is completely water insoluble. 0 ppb. Same for bauxite. Otherwise, this all amounts to “trust me bro” and you’re spreading FUD

So we are changing gears from claiming bauxite is insoluble to what material? I’m not going to chase every material one after another.

Do you know what exactly Phosguard is? No. So we will just be fishing around.

Pick one and I’ll see what I can find, but that doesn’t mean it applies to any materials reefers use unless you know exactly what they are.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

the delta form of aluminum oxide is shown to dissolve here:

http://lib3.dss.go.th/fulltext/Jour...998/no.19/19,1998 vol.32,no.19,p2876-2882.pdf

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

This article shows how the surface of alpha alumina is hydrated to hydroxylates in water. It dies not test solubility, but it clearly shows that -Al(OH)2 is attached to the surface.

https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1082181

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The dissolution of gamma alumina vs pH at room temp is shown here:

https://d-nb.info/1237050103/34

 

[Luminous74]

Dose your tank with 2 ml per (100 litres of tank volume) per day of a solution made up of 50% vinegar and 50% vodka, do that every single day and forget about phosphate and nitrate the coral will eat the bacteria that grows from this dosing. You will not be able to measure any phosphate or nitrates but the corals will look great with good colour
Its a very old method from the 70's but it works

Can you explain to me why this doesn't work in my tank? I've tried exactly that several times – and my corals absolutely hated it. I don't think they even know they're supposed to eat the bacteria.

 

[Luminous74]

Dinoflagellates don’t consume silica.

Exactly, I also learned that it's mainly diatoms that need silicate – not dinos. But now I'm totally confused and don't know who to believe anymore.:anxious-face-with-sweat:

 

[Curiousbranching]

Exactly, I also learned that it's mainly diatoms that need silicate – not dinos. But now I'm totally confused and don't know who to believe anymore.:anxious-face-with-sweat:

I’m pretty sure I’ve never heard anywhere that dinos utilize silicate. In fact, many people even dose silicate into their tanks to encourage diatom growth as a way to outcompete dinos.

 

[Miami Reef]

Can you explain to me why this doesn't work in my tank? I've tried exactly that several times – and my corals absolutely hated it. I don't think they even know they're supposed to eat the bacteria.

This is why overgeneralization and trying to extrapolate something from someone else’s tank doesn’t always work.

You might have a different pathogenic bacteria strain that is fueled by carbon dosing. There are some tanks that can’t tolerate carbon dosing.

Sometimes switching the source can help.

Exactly, I also learned that it's mainly diatoms that need silicate – not dinos. But now I'm totally confused and don't know who to believe anymore.:anxious-face-with-sweat:

Dinoflagellates do NOT consume silica. They do not have silica frustules. There is no evidence to support that claim he made.

I highly suggest taking anything that member says with a grain of salt.