Copper treatment

[Rattzreef]

How likely are the levels to drop, I wonder? Most of these companies claim there products stay in solution 30 days. Would copper levels drop that much over two weeks? How bout 30+ days? I only inquire because doing periodic testing the last two weeks on my own tank seems that it doesn't fluctuate all that much. According to my Hanna, anyways. Have others noticed fluctuations in the copper levels over time that would drop it out of therapeutic range? I know every tank behaves differently but I wonder if this is something others have noticed while doing their own tests on QT's?

Being able to get a more accurate digital reading would allow us to see large changes in CUSo4 levels. Of course they do have their range of inaccuracy but for larger more noticeable differences Hanna could provide us with a better insight on absorption and dissipation over a given time period in our QT's and see if these products truly do ,in fact, remain in solution at therapeutic levels for the 30 days. I'm not a chemist at all like I'm sure most reefers but this hobby sure makes me ask questions like one some days. Good Grief.. LOL
I'm sure some of you more experienced and knowledgeable folks here can answer some of these and I appreciate the feedback.

 

[Brew12]

How likely are the levels to drop, I wonder? Most of these companies claim there products stay in solution 30 days. Would copper levels drop that much over two weeks? How bout 30+ days? I only inquire because doing periodic testing the last two weeks on my own tank seems that it doesn't fluctuate all that much. According to my Hanna, anyways. Have others noticed fluctuations in the copper levels over time that would drop it out of therapeutic range? I know every tank behaves differently but I wonder if this is something others have noticed while doing their own tests on QT's?

Being able to get a more accurate digital reading would allow us to see large changes in CUSo4 levels. Of course they do have their range of inaccuracy but for larger more noticeable differences Hanna could provide us with a better insight on absorption and dissipation over a given time period in our QT's and see if these products truly do ,in fact, remain in solution at therapeutic levels for the 30 days. I'm not a chemist at all like I'm sure most reefers but this hobby sure makes me ask questions like one some days. Good Grief.. LOL
I'm sure some of you more experienced and knowledgeable folks here can answer some of these and I appreciate the feedback.

I think it is largely dependent on the specific setup. Running air stones will cause more evaporation and allow more copper to be entrained in the droplets and leave the system. Plenty of other factors will change evaporation rate. We remove copper every time we clean a filter, take a sample, or otherwise put our hands in the tank.

My feeling is that if you are hands off and start at the higher end of the range you should be ok for the 30 days. If you play around in your tank a lot then you could drop below therapeutic levels.

 

[JumboShrimp]

I tend to use CopperSafe at the ‘high’ end of the therapeutic range’ and based upon my experience (and using a Hanna Checker) I agree that it would probably hold fully within range for 30+ days. (I tend to need to replace about 4 gallons of ‘medicated’ water each week-week & a half during QT, just because of ammonia and general water nastiness.)

 

[HotRocks]

I think it is largely dependent on the specific setup. Running air stones will cause more evaporation and allow more copper to be entrained in the droplets and leave the system. Plenty of other factors will change evaporation rate. We remove copper every time we clean a filter, take a sample, or otherwise put our hands in the tank.

My feeling is that if you are hands off and start at the higher end of the range you should be ok for the 30 days. If you play around in your tank a lot then you could drop below therapeutic levels.

This^^^^. Plus any absorbtion. Usually even in absorbtion situation you would just have to dose more to get to the level. Once there it will hold steadily.

Then making sure you predose WCs properly which is pretty easy once you have a system down.

 

[Rattzreef]

This^^^^. Plus any absorbtion. Usually even in absorbtion situation you would just have to dose more to get to the level. Once there it will hold steadily.

Then making sure you predose WCs properly which is pretty easy once you have a system down.

So, when doing WC's do we dose to match therapeutic levels of the QT or dose slightly less and adjust accordingly? which is preferred? I guess it depends on the test kits the hobbyist uses. API vs. Hanna
Aside from ammonia being a reason, is it even necessary to do a WC during QT? If our ammonia alert badge doesn't show signs of toxic levels during QT there wouldn't be a need to do a WC. A properly cycled QT/filter would process it away. Although, I guess if someone had enough fish in a smaller QT, than ammonia can cause a need to one. It seems an added risk trying to maintain therapeutic levels consistently. I mean, I'm all about trying to match my WC params perfectly, but how many of us can honestly admit to being THAT vigilant with our WC procedures.. I've done them with slightly higher temps/lower temps, higher and lower salinity with no adverse effects to the reef over time. But in QT it seems like an un-needed risk.

 

[JumboShrimp]

I have gallon marks on the outside of my QT. CopperSafe is one teaspoon per 4 gallons. So I take out 4-gallons per water change, and put in a medicated 4-gallons. It’s been working for me. I tend to QT several fish at once, and as I mentioned, even with best-practices the water is bound to get ‘nasty’ within 30 days...

 

[HotRocks]

So, when doing WC's do we dose to match therapeutic levels of the QT or dose slightly less and adjust accordingly? which is preferred? I guess it depends on the test kits the hobbyist uses. API vs. Hanna
Aside from ammonia being a reason, is it even necessary to do a WC during QT? If our ammonia alert badge doesn't show signs of toxic levels during QT there wouldn't be a need to do a WC. A properly cycled QT/filter would process it away. Although, I guess if someone had enough fish in a smaller QT, than ammonia can cause a need to one. It seems an added risk trying to maintain therapeutic levels consistently. I mean, I'm all about trying to match my WC params perfectly, but how many of us can honestly admit to being THAT vigilant with our WC procedures.. I've done them with slightly higher temps/lower temps, higher and lower salinity with no adverse effects to the reef over time. But in QT it seems like an un-needed risk.

The only time I ever find it necessary is when using antibiotics in conjunction with copper. I just pushed an Achilles tang through QT that had a bad infection on mouth upon arrival for @4FordFamily. So I had to use antibiotics during copper to keep infection under control. Then transferred to another clean tank and started NFG post copper.

So I had no option but to do water changes during copper as per instructions on the antibiotic. Spectrogram is what I was using.

 

[Rattzreef]

For reasons like that HotRocks it makes perfect sense. And easier to do with more accurate ways to check freshly dosed SW also. After reading some of the biofilm thread I think I'll likely set up a completely separate system for using meds if needed and just keeping my current QT for copper treatments only. How many of you leave QT setup longer term? I'm planning on stocking my 29 with more fish after the 2 clowns currently in there go into my Red Sea tank in a few weeks and have been undecided as to which way to go. Do I completely wash everything out and start with a fresh sponge filter or keep this set up, change 100% SW and then start treatment on my next fish for the 29g. Would leaving the current cycled sponge filter hurt. I have another I can attempt to seed over the next 3 weeks. but would I even need to. That is my dilemma.

 

[don_chuwish]

If using a single QT, after 30 days of therapuetic copper. Do large WC and add carbon or cuprisorb to remove the remaining copper.
...
If using a 2nd sterile QT. You can transfer from copper QT to sterile QT after 14 days of therapuetic copper and then observe for 14 days.
...
If you were to transfer a fish directly from a copper tank to a non copper tank.
...

So just to clarify, and maybe worth adding to the original post, we DON'T need to slowly taper off copper levels? Straight out into salinity/temp matched copper free water is OK?

 

[HotRocks]

So just to clarify, and maybe worth adding to the original post, we DON'T need to slowly taper off copper levels? Straight out into salinity/temp matched copper free water is OK?

That is correct.

 

[Kimberely]

I wish I had read this earlier. I have a kole tang with a very slight case of ich and ordered copper power off Amazon. It didn't come with instructions to raise the levels slowly so I just added the full dose at once. I only found this when trying to find information on recommended length of treatment. It's been a few hours since I added the 3.625 mls and he seems fine. Active and munching on nori. But now I'm concerned I've messed up.

 

[HotRocks]

I wish I had read this earlier. I have a kole tang with a very slight case of ich and ordered copper power off Amazon. It didn't come with instructions to raise the levels slowly so I just added the full dose at once. I only found this when trying to find information on recommended length of treatment. It's been a few hours since I added the 3.625 mls and he seems fine. Active and munching on nori. But now I'm concerned I've messed up.

How many gallons is the QT?

 

[Kimberely]

How many gallons is the QT?

29

 

[Kimberely]

How many gallons is the QT?

I know it's small but the tang is less than 4" and it's the biggest I could afford on short notice. I had to sell my 40 breeder quarantine tank a few months ago (long story). I arrived at the dosage based on the instructions on the bottle. It called for 2.5no per 20 gallons. I divided 2.5 by 20 then multiplied it by 29. I've never dealt with marine ich before and unfortunately don't have a copper test, but I just ordered one.

 

[HotRocks]

Have you only dosed 3.625ml total? If so you have nothing to worry about it takes much more than that to get 29g therapeutic.

 

[Kimberely]

Have you only dosed 3.625ml total? If so you have nothing to worry about it takes much more than that to get 29g therapeutic.

Yes

 

[HotRocks]

Yes

Yeah it will take about 29ml of copper power to get 29 gal of water dosed to the therapeutic level where I treat. 1.75ppm.

This may help you:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ratios-for-dosing-copper-power.385871/

 

[Kimberely]

Yeah it will take about 29ml of copper power to get 29 gal of water dosed to the therapeutic level where I treat. 1.75ppm.

This may help you:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ratios-for-dosing-copper-power.385871/

Thank you!

 

[HotRocks]

This Sticky (Original Post) has been edited with new info. Reflecting up to date procedures and currently available products etc.

 

[LeonThePeon]

@HotRocks Great sticky - confirms my math and definitely makes me more confident about dosages and being able to teach others that can do WCs when I can't get to it.

To which I'll ask- I've got a completely separate 20G long tank that's dedicated to copper treatment. It's got cycled water + media and has gone through the paces with a number of fishes already. With dosing WC water being more manageable (2G out, 2G with 2ml Copper Power mixed in) - would it be better to do more frequent water changes (20-25% per week) to keep the water clean? Or am I stripping the good cycled bacteria too much? (not sure how long it takes for good bacteria to re-populate in Copper'd water)

Having only the Seachem Alert Badge as my gauge for "reliable" ammonia readings (in copper dosed water) kind of sucks - I think I've had my fair share of false negatives on those badges.