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Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

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Hi Jay, I am currently using a sump in the QT and running copper. The sump contains some black sponges as filtration. After QT is over, would you say it's safe to use these sponges in the DT as they are already cycled ? Would there be risk of cooper leaching out of them in the long run?
Just rinse them gently in clean seawater before using them in your DT. Copper doesn’t bind to plastic, you just need to rinse off any copper treated water.
Jay
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Just to clarify, @Jay Hemdal ... I am using General Cure for the prazi treatment, I'd need to dose 3 times 7 days apart, correct?
Well, that adds another issue - if you were treating with just prazi, I would dose at least twice, 8 days apart. For egg laying flukes, it is usually needed to treat a third time, after another 8 days. The trouble is the GC has metronidazole in it as well. This has no effect against flukes. I would do a 25% water change before the second (and third treatment).

Jay
 

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Well, that adds another issue - if you were treating with just prazi, I would dose at least twice, 8 days apart. For egg laying flukes, it is usually needed to treat a third time, after another 8 days. The trouble is the GC has metronidazole in it as well. This has no effect against flukes. I would do a 25% water change before the second (and third treatment).

Jay
From what I heard, metro only stays active in the water for 8 hours maximum? Is this correct?
 
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websurfer

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Hello Jay love the write up..
I have a question for you regarding some engineer gobies i have picked up.

I have read that you can not treat these with cooper since they are scaleless and tend to not make it threw QT with cooper.

My fish have been in QT untreated for about 2 weeks now very happy eating and full of life.
About 2 days ago I started to follow the Humblefish OT process for this fish type..

QT strategy: Use a tight fitting lid over the QT, ensuring even small openings are made secure. (Gobies can wiggle through tight spaces.) Once they are eating, soak their food with API General Cure for 10-14 days. This will eliminate any internal issues. Seachem Focus can be used to bind the medication to the food.

After starting this they fish are still active and eating like crazy however now they are rubbing them self against anything they can find almost like they have ICH.. They do not do this all day long but only once and a while. I do not see anything attached or any white dots while looking at them however they are still pretty small and very hard to see up close. It almost looks like they are doing this to stir up food from the bottom of the tank.. As when I feed them it seems they stop doing this for a while.


My question since I have not treated them for Ich as this type of fish does not hold up well with cooper what should I do?
Is this normal for this type of fish do I just stay on course with the food soak?
 
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Hello Jay love the write up..
I have a question for you regarding some engineer gobies i have picked up.

I have read that you can not treat these with cooper since they are scaleless and tend to not make it threw QT with cooper.

My fish have been in QT untreated for about 2 weeks now very happy eating and full of life.
About 2 days ago I started to follow the Humblefish OT process for this fish type..

QT strategy: Use a tight fitting lid over the QT, ensuring even small openings are made secure. (Gobies can wiggle through tight spaces.) Once they are eating, soak their food with API General Cure for 10-14 days. This will eliminate any internal issues. Seachem Focus can be used to bind the medication to the food.

After starting this they fish are still active and eating like crazy however now they are rubbing them self against anything they can find almost like they have ICH.. They do not do this all day long but only once and a while. I do not see anything attached or any white dots while looking at them however they are still pretty small and very hard to see up close. It almost looks like they are doing this to stir up food from the bottom of the tank.. As when I feed them it seems they stop doing this for a while.


My question since I have not treated them for Ich as this type of fish does not hold up well with cooper what should I do?
Is this normal for this type of fish do I just stay on course with the food soak?

You can use Coppersafe on engineer gobies, I don't know about Cupramine, never tried it on them.

Soaking food in GC cannot work, despite what you will read. You have no idea as to the dose, and then, when you put the soaked food into your tank, the medication starts to rinse off, so then, you don't even know how much of the unknown amount of the medication is left. Fish get better in spite of doing this, not because if it.

GC is praziquantel and metronidazole. The oral dose for prazi is 50 mg per kg of fish weight. It is only useful for treating cestodes. Metronidazole is dosed at 5000 ppm. I wouldn't even know where to start trying to figure a dose with GC....

If you think the fish have external flukes, then praziquantel in the water is the best way to treat that - prazipro is one product folks use a lot.

Jay
 

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Thank you Jay
I do not think the fish have anything to be honest just trying my best to make sure they are safe before i place them in my DT.

I went and took a look at the coppersafe and the site says
  • Use with caution on aquariums with scaleless fish and other copper-sensitive livestock - do not use Coppersafe® solution with fish species that have a known sensitivity to copper.

Do i still move forward or should i continue to monitor these fish?
 
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Thank you Jay
I do not think the fish have anything to be honest just trying my best to make sure they are safe before i place them in my DT.

I went and took a look at the coppersafe and the site says
  • Use with caution on aquariums with scaleless fish and other copper-sensitive livestock - do not use Coppersafe® solution with fish species that have a known sensitivity to copper.

Do i still move forward or should i continue to monitor these fish?

The new bottles of coppersafe are dual purpose, FW and SW, aren't they? If so, they are talking about scaleless FW fish - botias, some catfish. Overall, copper is more toxic to FW fish than SW.

I've never had any copper toxicity since I stopped using ionic copper/citric acid formulations about 15 years ago. Then, I would sometimes lose pygmy angels and have eels go off feed. However, coppersafe, while being much more gentle, is also easier on parasites. I hold fish in it for a full 30 days.

Jay
 

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Thank you Jay
I do not think the fish have anything to be honest just trying my best to make sure they are safe before i place them in my DT.

I went and took a look at the coppersafe and the site says
  • Use with caution on aquariums with scaleless fish and other copper-sensitive livestock - do not use Coppersafe® solution with fish species that have a known sensitivity to copper.

Do i still move forward or should i continue to monitor these fish?
So I'm really not sure why more experts on the subject aren't suggesting it but Copper Power is much better than Coppersafe for copper sensitive fish treatment. It's milder, but between 2.0-2.5ppm dosing gets the job done. I also have been using Copper Power with live rock and sand without issue (its more stable than others). I would switch to that @websurfer Copper toxicity is rare, but immune suppression due to copper is not and Moorish Idols usually develop bacterial infections when their immune systems are compromised. I have 2 idols in my DT now that were successfully treated with Copper Power.

Also, if the fish are scratching and you cant see any signs... try a FW dip... if you don't see anything its most likely ICH. I am not sure where people seem to think that fish with ICH don't scratch. I've only cured about 25 fish with ICH so far but every single one scratched on rocks or substrate.
 
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websurfer

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sounds good and thank you for the info.
So I'm really not sure why more experts on the subject aren't suggesting it but Copper Power is much better than Coppersafe for copper sensitive fish treatment. It's milder, but between 2.0-2.5ppm dosing gets the job done. I also have been using Copper Power with live rock and sand without issue (its more stable than others). I would switch to that @websurfer Copper toxicity is rare, but immune suppression due to copper is not and Moorish Idols usually develop bacterial infections when their immune systems are compromised. I have 2 idols in my DT now that were successfully treated with Copper Power.

Also, if the fish are scratching and you cant see any signs... try a FW dip... if you don't see anything its most likely ICH. I am not sure where people seem to think that fish with ICH don't scratch. I've only cured about 25 fish with ICH so far but every single one scratched on rocks or substrate.
Sounds good i did try to dip them when i first got them one almost died on me.. As soon as he hit the water like 40 sec later was on his back no gill movement etc... The other one had no issues just sat in the FW like nothing was going on.. I did not see anything come off them however I'm a true rookie and this is my first every QT try...

Plus these fish are so tiny in the juvenile stage.. I only let the other fish sit for 3 min not the full 5 as I was worried about this first fish and had to hold him in my hand above the pumps to get him active again..

Let me try this FW dip thing one more time and hope I do not lose one..
 

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sounds good and thank you for the info.

Sounds good i did try to dip them when i first got them one almost died on me.. As soon as he hit the water like 40 sec later was on his back no gill movement etc... The other one had no issues just sat in the FW like nothing was going on.. I did not see anything come off them however I'm a true rookie and this is my first every QT try...

Plus these fish are so tiny in the juvenile stage.. I only let the other fish sit for 3 min not the full 5 as I was worried about this first fish and had to hold him in my hand above the pumps to get him active again..

Let me try this FW dip thing one more time and hope I do not lose one..
All good brother I'm new to the hobby as well. Just a dork and did a bunch of research. Jay is absolutely awesome and has great advice so do what he is tell you to do and you should end up fine. I believe he is the one who told me Copper Power was more mild actually. I have a lot of finicky eating fish and wrasses so I wanted to treat with a copper less likely to cause appetite suppression. If that happens though just go by some topneck or little neck clams. Those two clams I'm convinced can get any fish to pig out.
 

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All good brother I'm new to the hobby as well. Just a dork and did a bunch of research. Jay is absolutely awesome and has great advice so do what he is tell you to do and you should end up fine. I believe he is the one who told me Copper Power was more mild actually. I have a lot of finicky eating fish and wrasses so I wanted to treat with a copper less likely to cause appetite suppression. If that happens though just go by some topneck or little neck clams. Those two clams I'm convinced can get any fish to pig out
Thanks for the info I'm no pro either i just read a lot haha.. back in the good ole days I used to do this full time way back about 28 years ago I worked in a fish store.. But man how things have changed since then.. I still have some of the common sense but not much... Waiting for the coopersafe to arrive it was sold out at all the LFS around here.
 

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@Jay Hemdal I'm on the 3rd week of copper power at 2.4-2.5ppm. I'm also on the 3rd dose of General Cure (to do a water change soon as it will be 48 hours after the last dose). I had to dose GC because I suspected flukes due to scratching on surfaces with one of the fish. Added extra aeration to ensure there's enough oxygen. I'm noticing one of the triggers scratching on the walls and hiding in the pipes (although still eating) and also saw the puffer scratching today. Is this normal behavior in copper? Altho there's no visible symptoms of flukes or ich on them.
 
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@Jay Hemdal I'm on the 3rd week of copper power at 2.4-2.5ppm. I'm also on the 3rd dose of General Cure (to do a water change soon as it will be 48 hours after the last dose). I had to dose GC because I suspected flukes due to scratching on surfaces with one of the fish. Added extra aeration to ensure there's enough oxygen. I'm noticing one of the triggers scratching on the walls and hiding in the pipes (although still eating) and also saw the puffer scratching today. Is this normal behavior in copper? Altho there's no visible symptoms of flukes or ich on them.
It could be they are irritated with the copper and the GC at the same time? Sorry, I don’t dose those together, so I don’t know what the chance is for a reaction like that.
I would suggest giving the fish a two week clearing time with no medications - that is always a good idea anyway.
Jay
 
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It could be they are irritated with the copper and the GC at the same time? Sorry, I don’t dose those together, so I don’t know what the chance is for a reaction like that.
I would suggest giving the fish a two week clearing time with no medications - that is always a good idea anyway.
Jay
The scratching has stopped after water change. should i ramp down the copper as well before the 30 days (on day 20 right now)? It seems my clown trigger and lionfish in the tank are stressed and not eating. The trigger is breathing heavy too with some fin damage. The puffer and eel are doing OK and still eating
 
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The scratching has stopped after water change. should i ramp down the copper as well before the 30 days (on day 20 right now)? It seems my clown trigger and lionfish in the tank are stressed and not eating. The trigger is breathing heavy too with some fin damage. The puffer and eel are doing OK and still eating
Triggers are not sensitive to copper, so that worries me. Lionfish are reported to be, but I've not seen that myself except possibly in some of the exotic species.

Can you post a short video of the trigger?

Jay
 

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It could be they are irritated with the copper and the GC at the same time? Sorry, I don’t dose those together, so I don’t know what the chance is for a reaction like that.
I would suggest giving the fish a two week clearing time with no medications - that is always a good idea anyway.
Jay
The scratching has stopped after water change. should i ramp down the copper as well before the 30 days (on day 20 right now)? It seems my clown trigger and lionfish in the tank are stressed and not eating. The trigger is breathing heavy too with some fin damage. The puffer and eel aredoing OK and still eating
Triggers are not sensitive to copper, so that worries me. Lionfish are reported to be, but I've not seen that myself except possibly in some of the exotic species.

Can you post a short video of the trigger?

Jay
Here you go. The puffer was eating today and suddenly started moving erratically and scratching a couple of times. I am not sure if my water parameters are off or not. Ph is 7.9, nitrate is 20ppm. Or is it the shrimp I'm feeding them. I was thinking to do a 50% water changes to see if it helps reduce stress. So far the puffer and eel are eating. Lionfish ate a bit yesterday. The trigger hasn't eaten for 3 days and mostly hides. Should I maintain copper?
 

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The scratching has stopped after water change. should i ramp down the copper as well before the 30 days (on day 20 right now)? It seems my clown trigger and lionfish in the tank are stressed and not eating. The trigger is breathing heavy too with some fin damage. The puffer and eel aredoing OK and still eating

Here you go. The puffer was eating today and suddenly started moving erratically and scratching a couple of times. I am not sure if my water parameters are off or not. Ph is 7.9, nitrate is 20ppm. Or is it the shrimp I'm feeding them. I was thinking to do a 50% water changes to see if it helps reduce stress. So far the puffer and eel are eating. Lionfish ate a bit yesterday. The trigger hasn't eaten for 3 days and mostly hides. Should I maintain copper?

This is where it gets tough: the trigger is either reacting to severe water quality problems, or has velvet (Amyloodinium) or a bacterial gill disease. I cannot tell you which it is though.

There are rumors of velvet surviving in 2.0 copper power. What copper test are you using?

What about giving the trigger a 5 minute FW dip? That might buy you some time.

Otherwise, you'll need to decide to either change treatment, or change a lot of the water. The trouble is of course that this will take you in opposite directions - if you change water and it is velvet, the fish will die. If you change to another treatment, and it was a water problem, the fish will die. The only thing I can say is doing nothing isn't an option..... velvet is such a great mimic of other problems, without a microscope, there just is no sure way to make a diagnosis.

jay
 

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This is where it gets tough: the trigger is either reacting to severe water quality problems, or has velvet (Amyloodinium) or a bacterial gill disease. I cannot tell you which it is though.

There are rumors of velvet surviving in 2.0 copper power. What copper test are you using?

What about giving the trigger a 5 minute FW dip? That might buy you some time.

Otherwise, you'll need to decide to either change treatment, or change a lot of the water. The trouble is of course that this will take you in opposite directions - if you change water and it is velvet, the fish will die. If you change to another treatment, and it was a water problem, the fish will die. The only thing I can say is doing nothing isn't an option..... velvet is such a great mimic of other problems, without a microscope, there just is no sure way to make a diagnosis.

jay
I'm using hanna checker. Copper Power at 2.5ppm. Unfortunately the trigger didnt make it. I doubt it was flukes as I completed 3 rounds of GC recently. I even did a FW dip on the corpse to be sure. I did a water change. They seem less stressed. Although the lionfish used to eat heavily and come to the front of the tank but now its become quite shy. Not sure if it got spooked during my water change. My 30 days of copper ends in about a week. If everyone is eating, would it be safe to put them in my DT? Or I should observe for another week or so? I was thinking it would be good to pull them out of full copper into the DT.
 
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