Current Quarantine Protocol

eaudecharque

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Jay and others,

First of all, I want to THANK YOU for the amazing and extremely useful information that you have shared on this thread. I have read all 12 pages and I surely learned a lot about QT.

I'm super new to the hobby, and while I can't keep using that as an excuse, there's just a lot of things that I don't know yet and by reading this thread I realized that I might have made some mistakes.

I'm setting up my very first saltwater tank but it's not ready yet. However, in the meantime I started last week a QT tank (17.7 gals) with a Tidal 55 HOB. I used Bio-Spira and put four 2" MarinePure cubes in the HOB. I left the sponge that came with the HOB and just added today a Tidal polishing pad. I got 2 clownfish from my LFS last week and put them in my QT tank. In my defense, the instructions on the Bio-Spira bottle say that after pouring the content, your tank is ready and you can put fish right away. Before adding the Bio-Spira, I added just a few drops (the recommended dose) of Prime. I have a RODI system, but I didn't know that adding Prime could cause any problems with medications. I have a few questions:

1. I have a bottle of Copper Power that I want to use, but I'm waiting for my Hanna Copper HR checker to be delivered to begin the treatment (my fish look healthy and are eating well, but still want to do the copper treatment) . Given that I treated the water with prime, should I refrain from adding the Copper Power?

2. I topped off my tank today and added a couple of Prime drops to treat the water before I added it to the tank. Should I maybe just wait a few days before I start adding Copper Power?

3. It wasn't clear to me what are the safe alternatives to Prime. Should I simply use RODI and nothing else if I plan to put copper on my QT tank?

4. Should I remove the cubes from the HOB and put the Matrix instead, or is it safe to keep the MarinePure cubes even when I plan to use copper (or any other medication for that matter) ? Someone on this thread mentioned Matrix does not absorbs Copper

TIA for the help!
 
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Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

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Jay and others,

First of all, I want to THANK YOU for the amazing and extremely useful information that you have shared on this thread. I have read all 12 pages and I surely learned a lot about QT.

I'm super new to the hobby, and while I can't keep using that as an excuse, there's just a lot of things that I don't know yet and by reading this thread I realized that I might have made some mistakes.

I'm setting up my very first saltwater tank but it's not ready yet. However, in the meantime I started last week a QT tank (17.7 gals) with a Tidal 55 HOB. I used Bio-Spira and put four 2" MarinePure cubes in the HOB. I left the sponge that came with the HOB and just added today a Tidal polishing pad. I got 2 clownfish from my LFS last week and put them in my QT tank. In my defense, the instructions on the Bio-Spira bottle say that after pouring the content, your tank is ready and you can put fish right away. Before adding the Bio-Spira, I added just a few drops (the recommended dose) of Prime. I have a RODI system, but I didn't know that adding Prime could cause any problems with medications. I have a few questions:

1. I have a bottle of Copper Power that I want to use, but I'm waiting for my Hanna Copper HR checker to be delivered to begin the treatment (my fish look healthy and are eating well, but still want to do the copper treatment) . Given that I treated the water with prime, should I refrain from adding the Copper Power?

2. I topped off my tank today and added a couple of Prime drops to treat the water before I added it to the tank. Should I maybe just wait a few days before I start adding Copper Power?

3. It wasn't clear to me what are the safe alternatives to Prime. Should I simply use RODI and nothing else if I plan to put copper on my QT tank?

4. Should I remove the cubes from the HOB and put the Matrix instead, or is it safe to keep the MarinePure cubes even when I plan to use copper (or any other medication for that matter) ? Someone on this thread mentioned Matrix does not absorbs Copper

TIA for the help!
Combing Prime and Copper Power is not supposed to be an issue, but I err on the side of caution, as all three of the main copper medications contain amines (ammonia). Prime is definitely an issues when combined with Cupramine.

Using Prime and then adding copper a few days later is no concern, the prime would have been reacted by then.

If you dose Prime in a bucket of tap water to the proper amount and then add that water to your tank and add the copper there, you won't have any issues.

Aren't marine Pure Cubes also ceramic? If so, they won't absorb copper.

jay
 

hairyashell

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If the tank has the capacity, quarantine all together makes sense from a cost/effort point of view. However, if you have already begun a quarantine period and then add new fish, you should reset the clock over to day one.

Jay
I have a general question for the 45 day fallow period I was intending to run while I QT the fish. My intention was to keep the beneficial bacteria alive in the media and rocks that came with the adopted tank but remove all disease and parasites. Should I just bleach the rocks and let the media and tank dry completely and start anew to be safe? The last thing I'd want is to QT the fish for 45 days but then introduce the fish to a tank that might still potentially have something in it.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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I have a general question for the 45 day fallow period I was intending to run while I QT the fish. My intention was to keep the beneficial bacteria alive in the media and rocks that came with the adopted tank but remove all disease and parasites. Should I just bleach the rocks and let the media and tank dry completely and start anew to be safe? The last thing I'd want is to QT the fish for 45 days but then introduce the fish to a tank that might still potentially have something in it.
What disease are you running fallow for?
Sterilizing and starting over is of course the safest way to go, but is kind of like taking one step toward and then 2 steps back. If you have the ability to run the tank fallow (with just rocks and sand) you could raise the temperature quite a bit - 85+ degrees, making the 45 day time frame more of a sure thing, and about the same amount of time as starting over.
Jay
 

hairyashell

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What disease are you running fallow for?
Sterilizing and starting over is of course the safest way to go, but is kind of like taking one step toward and then 2 steps back. If you have the ability to run the tank fallow (with just rocks and sand) you could raise the temperature quite a bit - 85+ degrees, making the 45 day time frame more of a sure thing, and about the same amount of time as starting over.
Jay
Not any particular disease, but just would like to ensure nothing is present after the 45 days. Just that having to bleach the rocks etc requires additional steps but if I can get away with doing a fallow for 45 days, I'd prefer to take that route.
 
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gbroadbridge

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2021 Quarantine Procedures

Jay Hemdal
David Scarborough



Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before adding the fish to your display tank.

Quarantine tank Requirements:

Tank must be large enough to comfortably handle the number and size of fish for up to 9 weeks.
  • Tank should have a filtration system that has completed the nitrogen cycle. Canisters, HOB overflow filters, or appropriately sized sponge filters are acceptable.
  • The filtration system must not use carbon or other absorbing/adsorbing filtrants (e.g. Polyfilter) that might absorb copper or medication. NO calcareous rock LIVE or DEAD
  • Bare bottom should be used. A saucer with non-absorbing sand can be utilized for wrasses, gobies, blennies or other species which are overly stressed by the bare bottom. Painting the underside of the tank black can also help
  • Heater/thermometer
  • Removable structure, e.g. PVC pipe may be used to provide hiding places for the fish.
  • Ambient light will often be adequate for the QT tank.
  • A means to maintain oxygen levels should be available. Air stones and sponge filters are usually adequate.
  • A lid should be used to prevent the fish from jumping out of the tank.
  • Set salinity level and temperature to the same levels as in your Display Tank.
Days 1 – 2: Observation - let the fish settle in and determine proper diet.
  • Set QT temperature to 78 - 80 degrees F.
  • Acclimate the new fish to the QT:
    • Measure salinity of the water in which the fish arrived.
    • Adjust salinity in QT to within 2 ppt of the salinity of the water in which the fish arrived.
    • Acclimate the fish to the QT gradually over 45 minutes.
  • Observe the fish for any symptoms which might influence the treatment(s) you should administer.
  • Determine if the fish are eating adequately to proceed.
Day 2: Begin Copper Treatment
  • Add Coppersafe to the QT to achieve a concentration of 2.50 ppm over the course of 24 hours. This can be done in two doses 12 hours apart or multiple smaller doses if you prefer. Coppersafe will not be effective until a concentration over 2.0 ppm is present. A target of 2.50 ppm will allow for fluctuations without the risk of falling below the 2.0 ppm threshold. Hanna Copper checker is the most accurate test to use.
  • Never use ammonia removing products or other reducing agents (dechlorinator) when dosing copper. Most products bind copper with an amine to reduce toxicity to the fish. Reducing agents break that bond, releasing free copper that can harm the fish.
  • Feed and top off tank water normally.
Days 3 – 32: Continue Copper Treatment
  • Monitor copper ppm regularly. If fluctuations do not occur, you can skip day(s), but if the concentration falls below 2.0 ppm, you will need to restart the 30-day count for the copper treatment.
  • Monitor water quality parameters as you would for your display tank.
  • If the copper or ammonia levels ever exceed guidelines, be prepared to administer water changes to correct the problem.
Day 34: Copper Done
  • Begin copper removal through water changes.
  • Zeolites such as Cuprisorb may be used to hasten the removal process.
  • Carbon is usually too slow or ineffective at removing copper and should not be relied upon without adequate monitoring.
Day 35: Praziquantel Treatment #1
  • Confirm copper has been removed adequately to drop the concentration to less than 1 ppm. Copper and Prazi should not be administered simultaneously.
  • Add Prazipro to the QT per the instructions on the label.
  • Ensure the additional oxygenation source is working. This treatment will potentially reduce the oxygen levels within the QT to critical levels without additional air flow.

Day 40, Day 47: Praziquantel Treatment #2, #3
  • Add Prazipro to the QT per the instructions on the label, 7 days apart.

Day 60: New Fish QT complete
  • Observe fish for 2 weeks after last prazi dose. Note: many public aquariums do not move fish out of quarantine unless they are in the middle of a full copper treatment. This vastly reduces the risk from Cryptocaryon or Amyloodinium. To use that method, substitute a copper treatment for this 2 week observation period, and move the fish out around day 10.
  • Conduct a 5-minute fresh water dip if the fish is of a species particularly susceptible to Neobenedenia flukes. If flukes are detected, reduce QT salinity to 50% and hold for an additional 35 days.
  • Confirm salinity and temperature of QT and DT are the same, add fish to DT.
May i suggest an amendment.

Cupramine is no longer available for retail saile in Australia

there is an alternative that requires a dosage lf 0.1 to 0.2 ppm which is tricky with a Hanna zHigh range

you may like to mention this
.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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May i suggest an amendment.

Cupramine is no longer available for retail saile in Australia

there is an alternative that requires a dosage lf 0.1 to 0.2 ppm which is tricky with a Hanna zHigh range

you may like to mention this
.
Thanks. Just a heads up the alternative that they are offering, based on the dose given, is copper sulfate/citric acid. This is an older way to dose and is much more prone to side effects. I don't think that the Hanna HR tester is effective for these products, you would need their LR tester. Back when I used this type of copper, you needed to maintain a dose of 0.20, but never fall below 0.18 or go above 0.22 - very narrow range! Also, have you heard people say, "you need to ramp up copper slowly"? That is actually based on this type of copper, not the new ones....

Jay
 

gbroadbridge

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Thanks. Just a heads up the alternative that they are offering, based on the dose given, is copper sulfate/citric acid. This is an older way to dose and is much more prone to side effects. I don't think that the Hanna HR tester is effective for these products, you would need their LR tester. Back when I used this type of copper, you needed to maintain a dose of 0.20, but never fall below 0.18 or go above 0.22 - very narrow range! Also, have you heard people say, "you need to ramp up copper slowly"? That is actually based on this type of copper, not the new ones....

Jay
Thanks.

would you happen to know the minimum therapeutic dose for treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans?

I have a 40 watt Pentair UV running at around 7 liter per minute which should nuke and control in the display tank.

The tank is about 400l or 90 g

given that the hanna hr test is 0.05 accuracy how high can I push and keep a safe dose for the sensitive fish like tangs?
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Thanks.

would you happen to know the minimum therapeutic dose for treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans?

I have a 40 watt Pentair UV running at around 7 liter per minute which should nuke and control in the display tank.

The tank is about 400l or 90 g

given that the hanna hr test is 0.05 accuracy how high can I push and keep a safe dose for the sensitive fish like tangs?

For copper sulfate citric / acid - the minimum dose is usually given as 0.18 ppm. (Remember, I am only presuming that is what this copper product is, based on the numbers reported - you should contact the company).

The trouble with the Hanna HR is that the accuracy (not the same as resolution) can be plus or minus 0.05 ppm. That means you could get a reading of 0.15 and then add enough copper to take it to 0.20, not realizing that your 0.15 reading was actually AT 0.20, and now you are actually at 0.25 and that is harmful to some species of fish.

When using copper sulfate/citric acid years ago, I used a spectrophotometer that gave me 0.01 ppm resolution. The Hanna LR says it gives + or - 10ppb accuracy, which is the same.

Jay
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Hi @Jay Hemdal, my Copper Power shipment got lost, now I have to reorder again. While waiting, can I run the Prazi treatment first before copper?
You could run one prazi treatment, just to knock the flukes back a bit if any are present. But then, you should start the copper up as soon as it arrives, and not go through a full 10 to 12 days prazi treatment. the rationale is that protozoans almost always kill fish quicker than flukes do. Treating for flukes first leaves the fish vulnerable to protozoans. However, delaying the protozoan treatment (due to the lost shipment) also delays the fluke treatment after the copper treatment, so thus the idea of hitting them with prazi once, then dosing copper, and then hitting them with prazi two more times at the end.

Jay
 

hairyashell

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You could run one prazi treatment, just to knock the flukes back a bit if any are present. But then, you should start the copper up as soon as it arrives, and not go through a full 10 to 12 days prazi treatment. the rationale is that protozoans almost always kill fish quicker than flukes do. Treating for flukes first leaves the fish vulnerable to protozoans. However, delaying the protozoan treatment (due to the lost shipment) also delays the fluke treatment after the copper treatment, so thus the idea of hitting them with prazi once, then dosing copper, and then hitting them with prazi two more times at the end.

Jay
oh, so even if i hit them once with prazi now, I'd still have to hit them with prazi twice at the end?
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Not any particular disease, but just would like to ensure nothing is present after the 45 days. Just that having to bleach the rocks etc requires additional steps but if I can get away with doing a fallow for 45 days, I'd prefer to take that route.
Sorry - I think I missed this message, there were two people at once. Running fallow is close to, but never 100% effective. A bigger risk however, is new fish bringing disease in with them through a failed quarantine (quarantine is NEVER 100% effective). When I hear that a fallow period failed, my first question is; could the affected fish have brought the disease into the fallow tank? When you sterilize a tank, you lose a lot of beneficial microbiota, not just bacteria. IMO - if your tank has any invertebrates in it, run fallow. If it just has fish, then sterilize it and start over.

Jay
 

hairyashell

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Sorry - I think I missed this message, there were two people at once. Running fallow is close to, but never 100% effective. A bigger risk however, is new fish bringing disease in with them through a failed quarantine (quarantine is NEVER 100% effective). When I hear that a fallow period failed, my first question is; could the affected fish have brought the disease into the fallow tank? When you sterilize a tank, you lose a lot of beneficial microbiota, not just bacteria. IMO - if your tank has any invertebrates in it, run fallow. If it just has fish, then sterilize it and start over.

Jay
Thanks Jay. I have already cleaned and let the all the plumbing, equipment, tank and sump dry. is that the effective way to sterilize? However I am still keeping the cycled media from the original tank alive in a barrel with the original tank water where I occasionally throw in a ammonia source. I was hoping to kickstart the new tank with these media when I get it up and running again closer to the end of QT. Is it still a risk that these established media might carry something over?
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Thanks Jay. I have already cleaned and let the all the plumbing, equipment, tank and sump dry. is that the effective way to sterilize? However I am still keeping the cycled media from the original tank alive in a barrel with the original tank water where I occasionally throw in a ammonia source. I was hoping to kickstart the new tank with these media when I get it up and running again closer to the end of QT. Is it still a risk that these established media might carry something over?
Sorry, I'm a bit lost here. If the established media came from the tank you sterilized, then yes, that media can as easily carry over diseases as the tank itself....it's just as if you cloned the tank. Both the tank and the media need to be sterilized or allowed to lay fallow, and need to be treated the same for consistencies sake.

Jay
 
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hairyashell

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Sorry, I'm a bit lost here. If the established media came from the tank you sterilized, then yes, that media can as easily carry over diseases as the tank itself....it's just as if you cloned the tank. Both the tank and the media need to be sterilized or allowed to lay fallow, and need to be treated the same for consistencies sake.

Jay
Sorry for the confusion. I have decided to sterilise everything since its going to be fish only. Is rinsing everything with water and letting everything completely dry, a good way to sterilise? Or do I have to soak in diluted bleach or disinfect with alcohol?
 

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Started QT. Fish have been in since Friday. No meds yet. Was going to start copper today. Should I combine metro into the copper treatment? And what can I use instead of Prazi because my Flashers Wrasse is in the QT? Should I use prazi when I’m up to it but remove it using carbon after 24 hours?

I’m treating prophylactically as none of the fish shows any signs or symptoms of disease.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Started QT. Fish have been in since Friday. No meds yet. Was going to start copper today. Should I combine metro into the copper treatment? And what can I use instead of Prazi because my Flashers Wrasse is in the QT? Should I use prazi when I’m up to it but remove it using carbon after 24 hours?

I’m treating prophylactically as none of the fish shows any signs or symptoms of disease.
I don’t like to mix metro with copper - it adds to the stress and those two medications both target protozoans, so are redundant.
I’ve used prazi with wrasses, never had an issue, but you need to increase the aeration, with a good air stone during treatment. I prefer to do a 30% water change after a prazi treatment as opposed to carbon.
Jay
 
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Another question @Jay Hemdal , do I need to make sure that copper is completely removed from the system before adding prazi? Also, I am considering API general cure instead of prazipro as it has both prazi and metro as active ingredient. Your thoughts?
IMO - you just need to get the copper down to about 25% of a full dose or less.

Lots of folks use General Cure. I've checked, and as-dosed, the prazi in it equates to a full dose. However, don't repeat the dose after 48 hours like they say, but rather, dose again 7 to 10 days later (to try and break the fluke life cycle).

Jay
 
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