Current Quarantine Protocol

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Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

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So if you use copper should you use something like Seachem prime to “detoxify” the ammonia since copper adds ammonia?
No - if you use Prime, it breaks the copper/amine bond and releases a flood of free copper into the water, killing the fish. Never use any reducing agent with any of the three main copper products - Cupramine, Coppersafe or Copper Power. They all use ammonia/amines as binders. Undetected reducing agents (even chlorine removers) are likely the culprit in "copper toxicity" instances.

Jay
 
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threebuoys

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Can you use ceramic media for a quick at start up or no?
if the ceramic media absorbs/adsorbs copper, then no. I don't know if all brands fall into this category, so I would stay away from it unless I knew for sure. Also, you will get a quick start only if the media contains bacteria by having been present in a cycled tank environment long enough to acquire a healthy population of bacteria. If you choose to use a bacteria in a bottle product, please note that some work faster than others. If your QT is not pre-cycled, you will need to monitor ammonia, nitrate, and copper carefully at the beginning.

David
 

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if the ceramic media absorbs/adsorbs copper, then no. I don't know if all brands fall into this category, so I would stay away from it unless I knew for sure. Also, you will get a quick start only if the media contains bacteria by having been present in a cycled tank environment long enough to acquire a healthy population of bacteria. If you choose to use a bacteria in a bottle product, please note that some work faster than others. If your QT is not pre-cycled, you will need to monitor ammonia, nitrate, and copper carefully at the beginning.

David
What can I use for a quick start up cause I’m setting up one more quarantine tank it I can’t use ceramic media? Bio balls?
 

threebuoys

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What can I use for a quick start up cause I’m setting up one more quarantine tank it I can’t use ceramic media? Bio balls?
Ceramic, per se, might work ok, but with so many products on the market it is difficult to know which ones may or may not absorb the copper. If you go this route, you'll need to check the copper levels daily until you are sure they are stable.

I use 30 ppi filter foam because a little goes a long way. The effectiveness of media is determined by the amount of surface area to which the bacteria can attach, and foam has a lot. I use it in a canister filter. It would work just as well in a HOB filter. Foam bubble filters will work well as long as they are large enough to filter the tank.Plastic bio balls will work too, although the surface area per cubic inch is less than foam, so you would need a larger volume.

David
 

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Ceramic, per se, might work ok, but with so many products on the market it is difficult to know which ones may or may not absorb the copper. If you go this route, you'll need to check the copper levels daily until you are sure they are stable.

I use 30 ppi filter foam because a little goes a long way. The effectiveness of media is determined by the amount of surface area to which the bacteria can attach, and foam has a lot. I use it in a canister filter. It would work just as well in a HOB filter. Foam bubble filters will work well as long as they are large enough to filter the tank.Plastic bio balls will work too, although the surface area per cubic inch is less than foam, so you would need a larger volume.

David
Do you have a link showing what foam you’re talking about, sorry I’m clueless but thank you for your help I appreciate it.
 
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StPatrick89

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No - if you use Prime, it breaks the copper/amine bond and releases a flood of free copper into the water, killing the fish. Never use any reducing agent with any of the three main copper products - Cupramine, Coppersafe or Copper Power. They all use ammonia/amines as binders. Undetected reducing agents (even chlorine removers) are likely the culprit in "copper toxicity" instances.

Jay
So get something else for a dechlorinator?
 

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Do you have a link showing what foam you’re talking about, sorry I’m clueless but thank you for your help I appreciate it.

Here are three sources for bulk foam. You can also get brand name filter foam at most local fish stores.

Although not used as much in saltwater due to the reliance on live rock, foam is used extensively in fresh water aquariums. One study I've seen concluded that bio-media with 20 square feet of surface area will provide adequate filtration for 1 lb of fish for 2 months before clogging up. 30 ppi foam contains apppx 400 sq.ft. of surface area per cubic foot. So 1/20th of a cubic foot is about 4.5 cubic inches. If you don't know the weight of the fish you intend to put in quarantine, you can use the length / weight estimator in the stickies.



http://www.swisstropicals.com/filtration-shop/poret-foam-shop/


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2838136119...sFkV0Hbr99C5v-v05hA_weu-RdE8ckhcaAngEEALw_wcB



David
 
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Jay Hemdal

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So get something else for a dechlorinator?
Aerate for 24 hours to dechlorinate is safest (or use RODI water) If you are really careful, and add just enough dechlor to handle the amount of chlorine in your water system, then you are fine. I'm just worried that as a reducing agent, if used in excess, it could break the bonds of the copper and amines.

Jay
 

jaganshi066

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Here are three sources for bulk foam. You can also get brand name filter foam at most local fish stores.

Although not used as much in saltwater due to the reliance on live rock, foam is used extensively in fresh water aquariums. One study I've seen concluded that bio-media with 20 square feet of surface area will provide adequate filtration for 1 lb of fish for 2 months before clogging up. 30 ppi foam contains apppx 400 sq.ft. of surface area per cubic foot. So 1/20th of a cubic foot is about 4.5 cubic inches. If you don't know the weight of the fish you intend to put in quarantine, you can use the length / weight estimator in the stickies.



http://www.swisstropicals.com/filtration-shop/poret-foam-shop/


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2838136119...sFkV0Hbr99C5v-v05hA_weu-RdE8ckhcaAngEEALw_wcB



David
I can just put this in my sump for my display tank and then put it in my quarantine?
 

threebuoys

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I can just put this in my sump for my display tank and then put it in my quarantine?
That's right. It may take a month or so to build up the bacteria level if you don't have any filter media in your sump. If you have any media, place it in the same compartment. If you don't have media, put it in the same compartment as the filter socks or skimmer as opposed to in the refugium if you have one or the return chamber. If you use a HOB or canister filter for your QT, you can add it there. The water flow through the foam will make it work best.

You could add bacteria in a bottle to the foam to get a fast start if you need it. If you do, be sure to monitor your ammonia daily until you know it worked. Some bacteria products work faster than others.

David
 

jaganshi066

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That's right. It may take a month or so to build up the bacteria level if you don't have any filter media in your sump. If you have any media, place it in the same compartment. If you don't have media, put it in the same compartment as the filter socks or skimmer as opposed to in the refugium if you have one or the return chamber. If you use a HOB or canister filter for your QT, you can add it there. The water flow through the foam will make it work best.

You could add bacteria in a bottle to the foam to get a fast start if you need it. If you do, be sure to monitor your ammonia daily until you know it worked. Some bacteria products work faster than others.

David
I really appreciate all the advice/help. I’ll order the foam and get my other quarantine going this Sunday
 

Peter Houde

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Hi Peter,

Could you cut and paste the info you typed and start a new thread in the fish disease section below? Also, pictures are going to really help in this case. Here is a link to some notes about what info we need to see about your tank:


Thanks,

Jay
Dear Jay,
I finally got the information you requested uploaded to a new thread in fish disease with the title pale-face disease. Thanks in advance for your help.
Cheers, Peter
 

kenchilada

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No - if you use Prime, it breaks the copper/amine bond and releases a flood of free copper into the water, killing the fish. Never use any reducing agent with any of the three main copper products - Cupramine, Coppersafe or Copper Power. They all use ammonia/amines as binders. Undetected reducing agents (even chlorine removers) are likely the culprit in "copper toxicity" instances.

Jay

I'm not sure if this is true for all combinations you describe. I've used specifically Prime and Copper Power frequently and have not had any losses nor detected any flood of copper. Unless this flood would not show up on a colorimeter test.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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thank you very much for this updated protocol, jay. :)

i had been meaning to post a question about the end of copper treatment, but it seems timely here:

at the conclusion of copper treatment (day 35), would it be better to transfer the fish to a second “fresh” QT (aged & cycled), and proceed with praziquantel treatment there?

i’m zeroing in on the tomont stage (cyst stage), understanding that copper kills only the free-swimming tomites. what’s the likelihood there will still be ‘unhatched’ tomonts in the QT? o_O


respectfully,
rick
That’s a good question. I don’t really know the answer. I’ve never had an issue with cryptocaryon starting back up in a tank after a fell copper treatment, but I see your point. With the protocol I use, the prazi treatment and the 2 week safety observation at the end would catch most/all issues, but moving the fish to a new tank would be safer still.
Jay
 
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I'm not sure if this is true for all combinations you describe. I've used specifically Prime and Copper Power frequently and have not had any losses nor detected any flood of copper. Unless this flood would not show up on a colorimeter test.
The copper won’t read at a higher concentration, it just changes form to a more toxic one. The chemistry is too complex for me, maybe Randy Holmes-Farley knows something more? All three of those copper products have amines in them (you’ll get an ammonia spike after dosing them). I know that Cupramine has this issue, and I suspect copper power and coppersafe do as well. Better to be safe I think. I never use reducing agents during copper treatments, and literally never see copper toxicity issues. I always wonder if the folks that do have been using Prime or Amquel?
Jay
 
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No - if you use Prime, it breaks the copper/amine bond and releases a flood of free copper into the water, killing the fish. Never use any reducing agent with any of the three main copper products - Cupramine, Coppersafe or Copper Power. They all use ammonia/amines as binders. Undetected reducing agents (even chlorine removers) are likely the culprit in "copper toxicity" instances.

Jay
Jay,
If I am not using RODI, are you saying that the declorinator I use for treating my water prior to a QT water change could break the copper/amine bond? If so, would prepping that water a few days in advance help?
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Jay,
If I am not using RODI, are you saying that the declorinator I use for treating my water prior to a QT water change could break the copper/amine bond? If so, would prepping that water a few days in advance help?
I've had somebody tell me that dechlorinator isn't an issue with amine based copper products, so I'm waffling on that aspect of being careful with reducing agents when using these copper products. I still feel that care must be taken with ammonia reducing products (Amquel, Prime, etc.). So - as long as you use the proper amount of dechlor for the amount of water you are using, you should be fine. The basis for all this are reports I keep having about people running into copper toxicity problems, while I never see that myself. One big difference is that due to my systems, I never use reducing agents, while home aquarists frequently do, but the issue may have some other basis, so I'm still pondering that....

Jay
 

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