Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[bh750]

I’m tearing my tank down and starting from scratch. My dinoflagellates has retuned and the only change in my tank was increasing the lighting. Dinos appeared, then my corals stopped growing ie tips on my sps are not white, month cap edge is no longer white etc.

I would combat them again, but when I went on holiday for 9 days I came back to explosion of vermatied worms. The tank was only feed two cubes of frozen over the 9 days too.

I’m starting with live rock, ever since I used pukani rock I had nothing but problems and partly I blame the lack of biodiversity.

Last time I beat Dinos with the dirty method, but once they cleared up I had to fight GHA, as I let the GHA grow a bit to ensure the Dinos did not come back.

Once my tank is empty, I’ll run it with water and bleach, then scrub the tank with bleach water, let it dry completely for a few days and then fill it back up.

Becks I hate to say it but when I hear people say this I cringe. Only b/c I did it no less than two times myself over the past 5-7 years. The most recent time I removed everything - live rock, sandbed - down to a bare empty tank. I soaked my rocks in a water:bleach solution for weeks while I got everything up and running. Even changed out most of the plumbing! After the bleach I dipped them in acid. Finally let them dry. Purchased brand new sand. Before putting anything in the tank I also washed it down with bleach, water, acid, then water again. Satisfied I added the new sand, clean rock, water, then salt. Started with all new livestock as well (the old tank crashed during a weeklong power outage aside from the dinos). The tank was doing great. I seeded it only with a diversified pack of microfauna and plankton from Indo Pacific Sea Farms. Eventually fish went in. Even two corals from IPSF. Everything was doing great. Sandbed was coming to life. Coraline and other nice growth on the previously white rocks. Fish happy and coral looking ok. And....I was still under the impression that I should have absolutely zero nutrients.

So here's where it all took a turn for the worse...

About 6-8 months in, in an effort to further diversify and seed my tank, I added a single piece of LR from a very highly respected LFS I'm lucky enough to have around here. His system never shows any signs of dinos, cyano, GHA. He was reluctant b/c he normally didnt give out pieces right from his display.

This is where I assume dinos were introduced into my tank.

Very shortly afterwards I started noticing them. That was around March of 2015. Since then I've been battling them on and off.

Long (very) story short, my problem was/is not dinos, its something with my husbandry, methods, or other unknown thats causing things to get out of balance and allow the dinos to overtake.

HTH!

 

[bh750]

Bring it on. I just beat it again these past couple of weeks on a 2 month old "new" tank I started at the beginning of Dec. I'm no biologist, so I don't have a leg to stand on here - but to me, it looked like a bunch of people were just itching to use their microscopes because they think micro-scoping a reef tank is cool (Whatever floats your boat). Julian Sprung's is a published algae expert and founder of Two Little Fishies - Many people have followed his instructions with success. All of this work has already been done before, if anything we are just muddying the waters even more.

I can't say it any better than Taricha and Paulawr did. Only repeat one point - hard to say what you did worked to eradicate dinos if you can't actually say you had them. The only way to know for sure is with a microscope.

 

[becks]

Becks I hate to say it but when I hear people say this I cringe. Only b/c I did it no less than two times myself over the past 5-7 years. The most recent time I removed everything - live rock, sandbed - down to a bare empty tank. I soaked my rocks in a water:bleach solution for weeks while I got everything up and running. Even changed out most of the plumbing! After the bleach I dipped them in acid. Finally let them dry. Purchased brand new sand. Before putting anything in the tank I also washed it down with bleach, water, acid, then water again. Satisfied I added the new sand, clean rock, water, then salt. Started with all new livestock as well (the old tank crashed during a weeklong power outage aside from the dinos). The tank was doing great. I seeded it only with a diversified pack of microfauna and plankton from Indo Pacific Sea Farms. Eventually fish went in. Even two corals from IPSF. Everything was doing great. Sandbed was coming to life. Coraline and other nice growth on the previously white rocks. Fish happy and coral looking ok. And....I was still under the impression that I should have absolutely zero nutrients.

So here's where it all took a turn for the worse...

About 6-8 months in, in an effort to further diversify and seed my tank, I added a single piece of LR from a very highly respected LFS I'm lucky enough to have around here. His system never shows any signs of dinos, cyano, GHA. He was reluctant b/c he normally didnt give out pieces right from his display.

This is where I assume dinos were introduced into my tank.

Very shortly afterwards I started noticing them. That was around March of 2015. Since then I've been battling them on and off.

Long (very) story short, my problem was/is not dinos, its something with my husbandry, methods, or other unknown thats causing things to get out of balance and allow the dinos to overtake.

HTH!

Yeah I understand that is a potential issue, but it’s the vermatied infestation too. It will also allow me to correct some things I’ve never been happy with my tank.

It also seems people who have used dry rock are more susceptible to Dino outbreaks

 

[Paullawr]

A LFS in my area recommended Fluconozale to battle Dino.............anyone tried this? I'm skeptical.

It works on bryopsis, not dinos I'm afraid.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Yeah I understand that is a potential issue, but it’s the vermatied infestation too. It will also allow me to correct some things I’ve never been happy with my tank.

It also seems people who have used dry rock are more susceptible to Dino outbreaks

Ive never been happy with my tank either. I thought about ripping it down many times. Only thing that is stopping me is progression. I'm seeing progress in my tank, the research that taricha and mcarrol are doing, and the methods of reef keeping. Knowing that dinos are everywhere now, it's difficult to say that it won't happen again. Even if you think your tank is bullet proof.

But since Fiji isn't exporting anymore rock, I guess florida is the next best source. Though, pests on live rock are exponential from florida. Get ready for more vermited snails.

 

[Paullawr]

Well my new system has them....

Evil things.

Just done a water change and noticed the first tell tale signs of our favourite prehistoric pest that should of gone the way of T-Rex.
Small bubbles held together on glass. Clear at the moment but will darken no doubt.

I've not been doing any real nutrient control hence a good layer of hair algae on the rocks. I did toss in a small piece of nitrate removing sponge in to the caddy filter basket but that's all.

My scope isn't much cop so hard to ID though looks like maybe osteo and amphidium.

And so it starts again. (until I get bored and pour in a load of kalk.)

 

[Paullawr]

@becks

You can rip tank down and start again but you will get them. I'm as sure as that as the sun coming up in the morning. Oh and if the sun doesn't come up dinos are least of your worries.

I've just ID them. Tank been running three weeks. Everything from new.

You cannot stop them. It's like preventing anaerobic bacteria from getting in there.

If you tear tank down for a change then go for it. But don't just do it to eradicate them. It sadly won't work.

As for me.... Time to pick up a nice size UV....

 

[Jolanta]

Dont do tear down, I did it few months and have them again.

 

[Jolanta]

One question for you guys, what are those creatures ?

 

[IKD]

@becks

You can rip tank down and start again but you will get them. I'm as sure as that as the sun coming up in the morning. Oh and if the sun doesn't come up dinos are least of your worries.

I've just ID them. Tank been running three weeks. Everything from new.

You cannot stop them. It's like preventing anaerobic bacteria from getting in there.

If you tear tank down for a change then go for it. But don't just do it to eradicate them. It sadly won't work.

As for me.... Time to pick up a nice size UV....

Good luck Paullawr! I am going on my third week with elevated Phosphase(.08-.15) and Nitrate (5-10ppm). I ordered my UV and the vendor forgot to put the order in so now waiting an extra week. I had a small Ostreopsis/Coolia dino presence but it bloomed soon after taking my biopellet reactor offline. Not sure if it's coincidence, but I'm wondering if the bacteria in my reactor was competing with them until they were removed and the explosion happened. I didn't have any other algae (micro or macro). I've since added Chaeto, Caulerpa, and Dragons breathe; added MicroBacter7; and got some miracle mud from a LFS. The bloom has ended but they're still very present on corals/rocks (but not on the sand). Hopefully getting my UV (Aqua UV Classic 114 watt UV Sterilizer for a 265 gallon) this week. I plan to put the UV pump in the main display and have 10micron filter socks to catch the little b'strds that escape to the overflow.

Would adding any 'live sand' (CaribSea, Nature's Ocean, etc.) help with added biodiversity?

 

[Paullawr]

Hard to say jolanta. Flatworm. Maybe cannot say for sure.

 

[Paullawr]

Good luck Paullawr! I am going on my third week with elevated Phosphase(.08-.15) and Nitrate (5-10ppm). I ordered my UV and the vendor forgot to put the order in so now waiting an extra week. I had a small Ostreopsis/Coolia dino presence but it bloomed soon after taking my biopellet reactor offline. Not sure if it's coincidence, but I'm wondering if the bacteria in my reactor was competing with them until they were removed and the explosion happened. I didn't have any other algae (micro or macro). I've since added Chaeto, Caulerpa, and Dragons breathe; added MicroBacter7; and got some miracle mud from a LFS. The bloom has ended but they're still very present on corals/rocks (but not on the sand). Hopefully getting my UV (Aqua UV Classic 114 watt UV Sterilizer for a 265 gallon) this week. I plan to put the UV pump in the main display and have 10micron filter socks to catch the little b'strds that escape to the overflow.

Would adding any 'live sand' (CaribSea, Nature's Ocean, etc.) help with added biodiversity?

I'm using natural sea water (nutri sea) Google it. Had about a gazillion bacteria in it. I'm afraid germs are well below in the pecking order when it comes to protist.

Unless...
Wait........
The reason they snot is because some bacteria has given them a cold!

No seriously bacteria diversity I've never seen any positive effect on dinoflagellates reduction. At least with multi cultures available to us. Which predominantly are aimed at converting Nitrogen compounds.

As for luck... Luck my friend is for the Irish and leprechauns.

This requires elbow grease, swearing (lots of), moments (read many) of dispair, sadness and anger.

PO4, no3 and a gallon of kalkwasser for when I cannot be ar$ed to deal with it any longer.

Success they say comes at a price.

No this time kalk is last resort. I'm going the natural method (why does that sound like I'm joining a nudist convention and don't plan to shave).

 

[JonJ]

I have read through as much of this thread as I have had time for and I am still going to ask for help with an id on what I believe is dinos. The tank is 6 months old and I have noticed what I initially thought was diatoms on my sand. No big deal, I’d vacuum them up during water changes. They reappear in a few days and I would notice that by each weekend the sand would look bad again. I started siphoning out the top layer of sand and each week they seem to be fewer than before. Despite HEAVY feeding of my modestly stocked tank, nitrates and phosphates are almost undetectable. I bought a Hanna ULR phosphorus kit as I cannot read any of the titration tests at this low level. Nitrates test at 1-1.5 ppm and phosphates are at .024 ppm on the new meter. I just did another really big water change and sucked out any areas of sand that had rusty patches and am going to try a few days with no lights. Above is my attempt to take iPhone photos through my daughter’s toy microscope- so forgive the quality. The little spheres swirl around and reform after left to stand for a bit. Hopefully after an id I can come up with a plan of attack.

Thanks!

 

[Beardo]

[bold] EDIT: apologize in advance for my picture and video postings. I dont know what I do wrong but for some reason whenever I link to a hosted picture they don't seem to work. I'm using the IMG tag hosting pics from google pictures. UGH! Always happens to me -- and I'm quite technical savvy . Even my HTML for bold isnt picking up. What am I doing wrong?? [/bold]




I'm have a fairly strong position of the benefits of a sandbed and, in my case, as DSB, Did alot of reading and even chatting with Dr. Ron Shimek. Without getting into DSB vs not I agree with all of the above and thing the diversity in the sand bed is key.




Ok so that explains what I found in my tank. Have a couple of pics and videos to show. Apologize in advance for the videos, its me holding my phone up to the lens...

First to your point about Amph dinos mixing with Cyano, here it is in my tank

100x

Same photo zoomed in

Here's a video of them swimming amongst the cyano -- they look slower I think b/c the sample had been out on the slide for a bit while I got my phone right

100X

400x
these are Large celled Amp right?

Next, here's what I think might be combination of Large and Small celled Amph? I took this sample from a part of my sandbed that looked clean.

100x

400x

Check out a video of them flying around -- are these small celled Amph? (again apologize for the video quality at the start)

100x

400x

If I'm right then does that mean small-celled ones aren't a problem or out of balance b/c they arent causing any noticeable appearance on my sandbed?

I can only see 2 videos and no pictures. From the video I can see, yes those are large cell amphidinium.

 

[bh750]

This requires elbow grease, swearing (lots of), moments (read many) of dispair, sadness and anger.

I could not agree with this more. This has been me, for years. I will tattoo it on my arm when I have this beat for more than a year!

 

[bh750]

Ok sorry gonna try this long post again. I (think) I finally have the picture and video posting down...

@taricha


First to your point about Amph dinos mixing with Cyano, here it is in my tank

100x

Zoomed in

Here's a video of them swimming amongst the cyano -- they look slower I think b/c the sample had been out on the slide for a bit while I got my phone right

100X



400x
these are Large celled Amp right?


And here's what I think might be combination of Large and Small celled Amph? I took this sample from a part of my sandbed that looked clean.

100x

400X

And a video of them flying around -- are these small celled Amph? (again apologize for the video quality at the start)

100x


400x



So...
If I'm right then does that mean small-celled ones aren't a problem or out of balance b/c they arent causing any noticeable appearance on my sand bed?

 

[xabo]

It works on bryopsis, not dinos I'm afraid.

That's what I've read.................................

 

[taricha]

@bh750 if the pics are in Google pics, just put them in a shared album (link sharing) and post the URL. We can see them that way.
The 2 vids that worked were definitely large cell amphidinium and cyano. I wish we could prove the connection between the two. But they are hand-in-hand so much I strongly believe this kind gets something (N, B12, bacterial lunch, grazer discouragement, camouflage, something?) from the cyano.

Also I'll post simplified instructions for trying Si for this kind. I just thought the paper details were interesting.

@Jolanta that's a red ciliate that shows up in lots of people's tanks. Good dudes.

@JonJ any chance of a video? Hard to say without movement.

 

[Jolanta]

Excelent Taricha, really where I saw those guys there was not single cell of ostreopsis present. Im trying a product red cyano rx that my friends from spain used and it seems to kill ostreopsis So I tried it yesterday and thats what ostreopsis looks today, what do you think?

 

[taricha]

And a video of them flying around -- are these small celled Amph? (again apologize for the video quality at the start)

So...
If I'm right then does that mean small-celled ones aren't a problem or out of balance b/c they arent causing any noticeable appearance on my sand bed?

Not really. I'd say the small ones are more closely associated with toxins. They are faster & better swimmers and so they in some systems have been reduced by UV.
That's why I distinguish between the two.
Most of your discoloration is due to the large cell ones, but I'd still run UV on tank to work against the Small-Cell while pursuing other methods to deal with the "main culprit" the Large Cell.