Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[MannyT]

Sup, guys?

I’ve been battling amphidinium and ostreopsis on my Biocube 29 for a few months now. With advice from people on this forum, I started dosing NO3 and PO4, and SI. I removed all my media and additives, I’m only running filter floss. I purchased a UV sterilizer and that seemed to kill off all the brown stringy stuff on the rocks, but getting rid of the brown rust stuff on the sand has been more of a challenge. Last week, I did my first water change in over 4 weeks or so. Ive removed about half of my sand within the past few weeks. I’m not sure what happened, but as of this past Monday I have yet to see any brown spots on my sand. My question is, what should my next move be? Do I still hold off on water changes?

 

[BurgerFish]

Seems that my UV cannot eradicate them completely.

Do I need to remove filter floss when dinos can hide from UV?

How many time takes to UV to eradicate all dinos or significantly reduce them?

Thanks

 

[Scottybgood]

Seems that my UV cannot eradicate them completely.

Do I need to remove filter floss when dinos can hide from UV?

How many time takes to UV to eradicate all dinos or significantly reduce them?

It will depend on the strain you have. I had Ostreopsis, and all visible signs of them were gone within 3-4 days of me turning on the UV. I have a pretty large sized UV for my tank size (a 40W for a 75 gallong with 26gal sump), and plumbed right to the display tank and at a lower end of the recommended flow rate.

I have left it running for a couple months now to be sure and haven't seen any recurrence.

 

[mcarroll]

@BurgerFish have you read through the first post yet? Sounds like you're missing some steps.

I don't see anything from you so far about system fixes or water tests you've done, etc – all I see are quick-fix tools being applied. That's a bad strategy if that's what you're up to so far.

Have you tested for nitrates and phosphates? If so, what do you get?

Do you know what caused the bloom in the first place?

 

[BurgerFish]

Have you tested for nitrates and phosphates? If so, what do you get?

I'll test them soon.

Do you know what caused the bloom in the first place?

Vodka dosing I guess. After that I tried to use Phosguard (I didnt know about dinos, thought it was diatoms).

Now I manually remove them, removed the skimmer, feed the fish more, remove chaeto. Run 9W (50GPH) UV for 13.5G tank, use carbon and purigen to neutralize toxins, use micro bubbles traitement and DIY UAS.

I guess some dinos hidding in filter floss. Also in UAS. I think I need to remove all mechnical filtration and dip UAS in freshwater (I read that this will instantly kill dinos).

Peroxide 1-1.5ml for 10g doesn't help.

 

[mcarroll]

I'll test them soon.

This is step one, so I would relax on everything else until you get this locked down – you're spinning your wheels.

Find out where your levels are and begin dosing nitrates and phosphate as-needed to maintain these minimum levels:
0.10 ppm of PO4
5-10 ppm of NO3

Re-test in an hour – often the first dose is consumed almost immediately. Re-dose as needed – remember those levels are minimums.

 

[Kimberely]

okay. Yeah, it's dinos.
Small cell amphidinium - the faster, smaller, better swimming cousin of the more common Large Cell amphidinium that never leaves the sand/rock.
here's some from my tank

At the end of the video, you can see their size compared to the much larger, more typical Dinos.

Just wanted to say thank you. I started topping off with well water to add some silicate and added a UV sterilizer and the brown bubbly dinos have already disappeared to the naked eye!!! Still having some cyano (bright red, no bubbles), but I'm assuming that's just due to the tank being so young. And I may need to tweak the flow where the cyano is the worst. Thanks again! These were so much easier to deal with than the ostreopsis I had before.

 

[danoo]

Well just to continue my running journal, things are really really looking good.

Today after a full light cycle I could not find a single strand of Ostreopsis anywhere. I'm also having trouble finding any really thick sections of algae to take samples from because my clean up crew is slowly but surely taking care of them. So that is another bonus.

Under the microscope I can still see a few scattered Ostreopsis, but no groups of them. And look at this poor Ostreopsis among all these diatoms:

So I'm giving a continued thumbs up to UV and Silica dosing.

And for anybody that wants an inexpensive-ish source of Silica, I'm dosing ~1.5 ml of this sodium silicate solution per day for my ~450 gallons of water volume. This $11 bottle lasts me about a month and a half. I may be doing the math wrong, but I believe this is about 25x more concentrated than SpongeExcel. I haven't tested the Silica concentration after dosing, but I believe in theory I'm adding ~0.3 ppm per day, which seems to be a good dose for me. I'm not getting any diatom blooms, but diatoms are clearly the dominant form of microalgae. I've tried finding cheaper sources of high grade sodium silicate, but all of the chemical suppliers won't deliver to my residential address :/

I'm also seeing a lot more microfauna at night, which I'm sure is a combination of all the yummy diatoms and the declining population of dinos.

 

[taricha]

Just wanted to say thank you. I started topping off with well water to add some silicate and added a UV sterilizer and the brown bubbly dinos have already disappeared to the naked eye!!! Still having some cyano (bright red, no bubbles), but I'm assuming that's just due to the tank being so young. And I may need to tweak the flow where the cyano is the worst. Thanks again! These were so much easier to deal with than the ostreopsis I had before.

Do you know all the trace things in your well water? because it's likely got some things that you'd rather limit. Glad it's working so far.

Well just to continue my running journal, things are really really looking good.

Today after a full light cycle I could not find a single strand of Ostreopsis anywhere. I'm also having trouble finding any really thick sections of algae to take samples from because my clean up crew is slowly but surely taking care of them. So that is another bonus.

Under the microscope I can still see a few scattered Ostreopsis, but no groups of them. And look at this poor Ostreopsis among all these diatoms:

So I'm giving a continued thumbs up to UV and Silica dosing.

And for anybody that wants an inexpensive-ish source of Silica, I'm dosing ~1.5 ml of this sodium silicate solution per day for my ~450 gallons of water volume. This $11 bottle lasts me about a month and a half. I may be doing the math wrong, but I believe this is about 25x more concentrated than SpongeExcel. I haven't tested the Silica concentration after dosing, but I believe in theory I'm adding ~0.3 ppm per day, which seems to be a good dose for me. I'm not getting any diatom blooms, but diatoms are clearly the dominant form of microalgae. I've tried finding cheaper sources of high grade sodium silicate, but all of the chemical suppliers won't deliver to my residential address :/

I'm also seeing a lot more microfauna at night, which I'm sure is a combination of all the yummy diatoms and the declining population of dinos.

That all sounds great. The way I think of diatoms now (as I look at your picture) - is the diatom cells I see are taking the place of a dino cell. And by "place" I mean N,P, trace nutrients, light, and physical location. And the diatoms are so much more edible, they move those nutrients up the food chain far more effectively.

I ordered a bottle of Silicate from Florida Aqua farms once I got tired of going through the tiny spongexcel bottles. Only downside was I couldn't find anyone who could tell me the actual concentration of the bottle but I figured out eventually 1ml/gal = 16.6 ppm SiO2.
growing diatoms isn't a silver bullet, dino's can and will still grow, but it ought to help blunt the dino growth somewhat, and maybe a lot.

 

[taricha]

Sup, guys?

I’ve been battling amphidinium and ostreopsis on my Biocube 29 for a few months now. With advice from people on this forum, I started dosing NO3 and PO4, and SI. I removed all my media and additives, I’m only running filter floss. I purchased a UV sterilizer and that seemed to kill off all the brown stringy stuff on the rocks, but getting rid of the brown rust stuff on the sand has been more of a challenge. Last week, I did my first water change in over 4 weeks or so. Ive removed about half of my sand within the past few weeks. I’m not sure what happened, but as of this past Monday I have yet to see any brown spots on my sand. My question is, what should my next move be? Do I still hold off on water changes?

If no water changes is currently suppressing dinos, and other things are starting to grow, I wouldn't do water changes until dinos have been gone/invisible for a couple of weeks.

edit: and your UV observations perfectly fit what is often seen - more than one species of dino present in a bloom.

 

[taricha]

This may be the same thing you're saying (and maybe even a repeat idea) but I wonder if Amphidinium's "local" access to substrate-oriented detrital nutrient sources accounts at all for their apparent lack of toxicity during "outbreaks"? Maybe they don't starve enough to go toxic compared to the others that enter the water column?

That's a good catch, the Large Cell Amphidinium love areas where the nutrients are locally "richer" - detritus piles, cyano mats, and sandbeds generally. If I were to generalize within the dino family, I'd call them the high nutrient relatives (as opposed to ostreopsis being the most low nutrient).
This also may be related to why a gentle raising of PO4 is less effective on amphidinium than on the ostreopsis etc.

Some of the movement may be water currents in my sample drop, but you can see them swimming a bit.

Also discovered this guy! No clue, but fun to watch!

definitely ostreopsis circling about their lighter colored pointy ends.
And that last guy is an ostracod "seed shrimp". You can see how cool their shell is.

After adding the GFO is when the snails started dying, then a few days after that I saw several micro brittle stars floating.

I will write up a more detailed post, with tank specifics and parameters when things slow down a bit at work.

interesting point here. still sounds out of character for amphidinium, but look forward to hearing more.

 

[janos]

Hi to all,just need to tell thank you for taricha because the Si dosing is working for me 100%. Fighting with dino for 1 year long try dark out,not working,try H2O2 30% working try javex, 30% again now i try dosing Si and finally i got diatom bloom.Never taught i will be happy with diatom,but now i am happy,because after diatom i will finally see some green algae.Dosed aggressively 5 ml for 5 day on a 80 gal system.Now looks good only diatom,no dino.Will check with microscope again tomorrow Thank you again.

 

[taricha]

now i try dosing Si and finally i got diatom bloom.....Dosed aggressively 5 ml for 5 day on a 80 gal system.Now looks good only diatom,no dino.Will check with microscope again tomorrow Thank you again.

Thanks! Wow, an actual diatom bloom? That's a first. Take pictures and notes. Definitely interested. What product exactly did you dose 5ml/day of?

To reiterate, Si ain't a cure but some people have found it might be a good 4th or 5th most helpful intervention that goes along well with others.

 

[George Willings]

I have been dealing with a small dino outbreak for the last few days. Just tested the water, Nitrates a 10 ppm, and phosphate at .50 ppm. Something that I think that is directly related is the fact that my dkh dropped to 5 dkh. I am slowly raising my dkh, and began wet skimming. Only thing different I have done is feed inhabitants mysis shrimp, and removed some hair algae from the rear sump as it was choking my cheato. I am thinking of getting rid of the cheato for something else like Red Ogo.

 

[Kimberely]

Do you know all the trace things in your well water? because it's likely got some things that you'd rather limit. Glad it's working so far.



That all sounds great. The way I think of diatoms now (as I look at your picture) - is the diatom cells I see are taking the place of a dino cell. And by "place" I mean N,P, trace nutrients, light, and physical location. And the diatoms are so much more edible, they move those nutrients up the food chain far more effectively.

I ordered a bottle of Silicate from Florida Aqua farms once I got tired of going through the tiny spongexcel bottles. Only downside was I couldn't find anyone who could tell me the actual concentration of the bottle but I figured out eventually 1ml/gal = 16.6 ppm SiO2.
growing diatoms isn't a silver bullet, dino's can and will still grow, but it ought to help blunt the dino growth somewhat, and maybe a lot.

I had it tested when we had the well drilled. I can't find the report now, but it was extremely clean...just very very hard water. No phosphate, nitrate or copper, but 17dkh. Way to hard for using it as my main source of water, but just using it for top offs has allowed me to stop dosing KH daily. It's staying steady at 9.3dkh now where before I was struggling to keep it steady and above 7.5dkh

 

[taricha]

I had it tested when we had the well drilled. I can't find the report now, but it was extremely clean...just very very hard water. No phosphate, nitrate or copper, but 17dkh. Way to hard for using it as my main source of water, but just using it for top offs has allowed me to stop dosing KH daily. It's staying steady at 9.3dkh now where before I was struggling to keep it steady and above 7.5dkh

Hah. Silica and alk. Your well water would save me some time and money.

 

[CherBear811]

Hey guys - I have minor dinos. It was worse across the top part of my tank, and never really on the sand. I did 72 hour blackout twice. Each time it knocked it down but it came back. I've been dosing H2O2, about 2 ml/10 gallons daily, which has helped. I also ran a course of flucanozole to deal with my previous substantial bryopsis problem. Fluc wiped out every trace of it in short order. Which has helped quite a bit. My parameters are good but not quite optimal as I think my gfo has dropped my PO4 to undetectable numbers. Thinking of just taking it offline to let the PO4 come up a bit naturally.

But I still have a few small patches of bubbles forming each night by the end of my light cycle.

I am wondering if adding a UV would kill off the remainder, mainly, what flow rate would I need per watt of uv?

 

[Brew12]

It's staying steady at 9.3dkh now where before I was struggling to keep it steady and above 7.5dkh

Not to hijack the Dino thread, but did you make sure that the alkalinity from the well is mostly due to carbonates? By definition, alkalinity is the ability of seawater to buffer an acid. Since 95% of this buffering capability in seawater comes from carbonate/bicarbonate we use alkalinity as a way to measure carbonate content. While not likely, your well water could be high in borate, silicate, phosphate, or other buffering compounds not typically found in seawater. This could put you in a situation where your alkalinity measures fine but your bicarbonate levels are low.

 

[MannyT]

If no water changes is currently suppressing dinos, and other things are starting to grow, I wouldn't do water changes until dinos have been gone/invisible for a couple of weeks.

edit: and your UV observations perfectly fit what is often seen - more than one species of dino present in a bloom.

I was noticing some signs of diatoms and macroalgae growing, then all of a sudden it stopped and kind of just all disappeared. I’m not sure if maybe the UV got rid of it all? I did a wc (3 weeks ago) thinking maybe that would help start growing other stuff, but nothing. I’ve been siphoning the sand with a filter sock and then using the same water. After about removing 1 inch of the 2 inch sand bed, I have yet to notice the brown spots return on the sand. I’m also not growing anything else though.

 

[Kimberely]

Not to hijack the Dino thread, but did you make sure that the alkalinity from the well is mostly due to carbonates? By definition, alkalinity is the ability of seawater to buffer an acid. Since 95% of this buffering capability in seawater comes from carbonate/bicarbonate we use alkalinity as a way to measure carbonate content. While not likely, your well water could be high in borate, silicate, phosphate, or other buffering compounds not typically found in seawater. This could put you in a situation where your alkalinity measures fine but your bicarbonate levels are low.

It's hard because I live in the Ozark mountains and my well water is filtered through over 500 feet of limestone. It tests negative for phosphate, but does contain a bit of silica. No idea about borate. I'd have to find the test results from 15 years ago and I have no idea where they are now.