Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[taricha]

More questions sorry!! I am also sure that all my questions will be answered if I read through the entire thread... but close to 5k response will take me a long time..So one again, my apologies.

So once I raise N&P to the desired level, what other organisms should I start seeing in my tank? How long does it usually take to achieve the desired results when nutrients are elevated?

I also have a decent amount of CUC (snails, hermits, shrimp) which has kept my rocks and sandbed to be somewhat clean. Should I remove the CUC first? I have a refugium where I can temp house my CUC.

Thanks again!!

the other organisms you'll see first are nondescript green and brownish films on surfaces, then green algae popping up on rocks. If you inspected microscopically, you'd see areas that were just dinos become algaes, ciliates, diatoms, tiny worms and 'pods. 1-2 weeks between nutrient change and visible effects on what grows in the tank.
A good UV will reduce the dino cells much faster, just a couple of night cycles. but it's the environmental change that matters more than killing individual dino cells. BTW, run GAC to reduce dino toxins.
If your CUC is surviving now, they'll be much happier with the changes.

 

[Beardo]

Me too! I removed mine. Would love to have it back. Way too scared to try myself at this point. Keep us updated. Thanks.

Thought I would provide quick update since it has been a couple weeks now.
Dinos cleared out pretty quickly and haven't seen any signs since (sure hope I didn't just jinx myself).
Catching early helped. Previous battles, the tank was pretty far gone.

Quick cellphone snap of the tank (excuse the aptasia, the peppermint shrimp are making steady but slow progress with them).

 

[dwest]

Thought I would provide quick update since it has been a couple weeks now.
Dinos cleared out pretty quickly and haven't seen any signs since (sure hope I didn't just jinx myself).
Catching early helped. Previous battles, the tank was pretty far gone.

Quick cellphone snap of the tank (excuse the aptasia, the peppermint shrimp are making steady but slow progress with them).

You’re making me think about putting in sand again. Do you plan to vacuum your sand?

 

[SteveO83]

Update. Got my nitrates to 25 and phosphates are .003. No algae growing. Been dosing peroxide as well. Started siphoning sandbed. Have taken the plunge and ordered dino x. Dinos are growing on pretty much every coral I have now. So before they smoother them out I have decided to take the chance. Should be here by Thursday

 

[taricha]

Update. Got my nitrates to 25 and phosphates are .003. No algae growing. Been dosing peroxide as well. Started siphoning sandbed. Have taken the plunge and ordered dino x. Dinos are growing on pretty much every coral I have now. So before they smoother them out I have decided to take the chance. Should be here by Thursday

You are pulling tank in multiple opposing directions simultaneously, and I'm not sure you've got a correct ID on your pest.
You say amphidinium, but that it's covering your corals. That's pretty atypical. Got microscope pics, or at least tank pics of what's on corals?
If your corals are getting covered, it's probably a type that goes into the water, so UV is going to be a powerful short- term weapon.
Elevating N & P (and reverse that order P then N) is to grow algae competitors. It should be done by dosing inorganic forms - not by heavy feeding. This is the thesis of this thread. Grow other things, replace and outcompete the dinos.
Your N P ratio is so heavy towards N and so low on P, that in itself may stress corals - separate from any dino effects.
Algaecides h2o2, dinox, bleach, ozone, vibrant and on and on etc... are the opposite path. One this thread doesn't recommend because it's never fully effective and often doesn't allow competition to establish, so the dinos have no obstacle to take over again.

If you must go that route, vibrant seems the most effective and sane option in that direction. That thread is quite informative.

When we "throw everything" at a problem, we're just chasing our own tails.

 

[Colt1911]

Last I checked, my P was at 0.01 and N at 1. Which one should I raise first?

Thanks again!

 

[Beardo]

You’re making me think about putting in sand again. Do you plan to vacuum your sand?

I do plan to vacuum areas of the sandbed.

 

[Pennywise the Clown]

When my tank is 100% clear of dinos I am having to have a good think about my sandbed. I can definitely trace my dino outbreak back to the first proper vacuum clean I did on it.
I will be scared to ever touch it again.

 

[SteveO83]

You are pulling tank in multiple opposing directions simultaneously, and I'm not sure you've got a correct ID on your pest.
You say amphidinium, but that it's covering your corals. That's pretty atypical. Got microscope pics, or at least tank pics of what's on corals?
If your corals are getting covered, it's probably a type that goes into the water, so UV is going to be a powerful short- term weapon.
Elevating N & P (and reverse that order P then N) is to grow algae competitors. It should be done by dosing inorganic forms - not by heavy feeding. This is the thesis of this thread. Grow other things, replace and outcompete the dinos.
Your N P ratio is so heavy towards N and so low on P, that in itself may stress corals - separate from any dino effects.
Algaecides h2o2, dinox, bleach, ozone, vibrant and on and on etc... are the opposite path. One this thread doesn't recommend because it's never fully effective and often doesn't allow competition to establish, so the dinos have no obstacle to take over again.

If you must go that route, vibrant seems the most effective and sane option in that direction. That thread is quite informative.

When we "throw everything" at a problem, we're just chasing our own tails.

I am running a 9w in tank uv from IM in a 20g fusion. Hasnt phased it at all. Was doing for nitrates as my phosphates were higher than they are now.

 

[SteveO83]

You are pulling tank in multiple opposing directions simultaneously, and I'm not sure you've got a correct ID on your pest.
You say amphidinium, but that it's covering your corals. That's pretty atypical. Got microscope pics, or at least tank pics of what's on corals?
If your corals are getting covered, it's probably a type that goes into the water, so UV is going to be a powerful short- term weapon.
Elevating N & P (and reverse that order P then N) is to grow algae competitors. It should be done by dosing inorganic forms - not by heavy feeding. This is the thesis of this thread. Grow other things, replace and outcompete the dinos.
Your N P ratio is so heavy towards N and so low on P, that in itself may stress corals - separate from any dino effects.
Algaecides h2o2, dinox, bleach, ozone, vibrant and on and on etc... are the opposite path. One this thread doesn't recommend because it's never fully effective and often doesn't allow competition to establish, so the dinos have no obstacle to take over again.

If you must go that route, vibrant seems the most effective and sane option in that direction. That thread is quite informative.

When we "throw everything" at a problem, we're just chasing our own tails.

Once I get home tonight I will post pics of it on corals. I have videos as well, but no way to post them here

 

[SteveO83]

You are pulling tank in multiple opposing directions simultaneously, and I'm not sure you've got a correct ID on your pest.
You say amphidinium, but that it's covering your corals. That's pretty atypical. Got microscope pics, or at least tank pics of what's on corals?
If your corals are getting covered, it's probably a type that goes into the water, so UV is going to be a powerful short- term weapon.
Elevating N & P (and reverse that order P then N) is to grow algae competitors. It should be done by dosing inorganic forms - not by heavy feeding. This is the thesis of this thread. Grow other things, replace and outcompete the dinos.
Your N P ratio is so heavy towards N and so low on P, that in itself may stress corals - separate from any dino effects.
Algaecides h2o2, dinox, bleach, ozone, vibrant and on and on etc... are the opposite path. One this thread doesn't recommend because it's never fully effective and often doesn't allow competition to establish, so the dinos have no obstacle to take over again.

If you must go that route, vibrant seems the most effective and sane option in that direction. That thread is quite informative.

When we "throw everything" at a problem, we're just chasing our own tails.

Going to try and do this. Just posted this on my instagram
https://www.instagram.com/p/BuT4GPnB0Bl/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=l6inc96t73a3

 

[taricha]

I am running a 9w in tank uv from IM in a 20g fusion. Hasnt phased it at all. Was doing for nitrates as my phosphates were higher than they are now.

Okay, although the ID is difficult to distinguish between amphidinium and prorocentrum here, I'm going to lean prorocentrum for two reasons.
One: the structure of the lighter areas inside the cell is a pattern that is pretty indicative of proros. never seen it in amphidinium.

two: your description of its behavior - on corals, resisting going into the water.

Check this from a few posts back about prorocentrum and UV.

 

[Pennywise the Clown]

100% prorocentrum. They look identical to mine.

 

[Pennywise the Clown]

Edit...sorry I was looking at the example pictures. I would still go prorocentrum but difficult to be certain from the photo.

 

[SteveO83]

Edit...sorry I was looking at the example pictures. I would still go prorocentrum but difficult to be certain from the photo.

I also included a link to my insta with a video.

 

[SteveO83]

Okay, although the ID is difficult to distinguish between amphidinium and prorocentrum here, I'm going to lean prorocentrum for two reasons.
One: the structure of the lighter areas inside the cell is a pattern that is pretty indicative of proros. never seen it in amphidinium.

two: your description of its behavior - on corals, resisting going into the water.

Check this from a few posts back about prorocentrum and UV.

Ill cut the light cycle down, but right now its about 8-8.5 hours full spectrum. Then I think an hour ramping up and an hour down

 

[taricha]

Ill cut the light cycle down, but right now its about 8-8.5 hours full spectrum. Then I think an hour ramping up and an hour down

Only for a few days. Cut light period in half, blast surfaces with turkey baster as often as you think about it. Change the triggers that tell cells to move into water. Get them into UV.
Should see improvements in just a few night cycles.

 

[SteveO83]

Only for a few days. Cut light period in half, blast surfaces with turkey baster as often as you think about it. Change the triggers that tell cells to move into water. Get them into UV.
Should see improvements in just a few night cycles.

If im using the full light period as of now and blasting surfaces, would I still see a difference or should I of at least? Ive been doing that minus the light period

 

[Pennywise the Clown]

If im using the full light period as of now and blasting surfaces, would I still see a difference or should I of at least? Ive been doing that minus the light period

I cut my light down from 12 hours to 7 and it has had a big impact on the remaining dinos in my sandbed. I was struggling to get rid of the last of my prorocentrum before hand.
I am also running a 55w UV sterilizer.

 

[SteveO83]

I cut my light down from 12 hours to 7 and it has had a big impact on the remaining dinos in my sandbed. I was struggling to get rid of the last of my prorocentrum before hand.
I am also running a 55w UV sterilizer.

You say remaining. I have not been able to knock mine down at all using uv