Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[taricha]

I really wan't to do a water change to clean the water up, I'm resisting the urge.

I hope I can switch back to ozone, the water looks nicer. But I fear that UV is the only thing that will keep the ostreopsis in check.

Ozone is great! don't go overboard with it, but it's super useful - if you have it.

From the video I believe that I have Cyano and not dino. Although I really think that the visible part of the algae are very differnt day and night in the tank - which I thought was a Dino characteristica.

(T-Horn /DK)

True. you aren't the only one to see cyano get lighter/darker during a night/day cycle. My hunch is that cyano is more mobile than we give it credit for, and goes slightly lower at night into sand and debris to get nutrients better.

 

[T-HORNDK]

Thank you for helping me with ID based on my little video.

I bought this microscope (Besser Biolux NV 20x-1280x ) with an integrated videocam. Already had a lot of fun - also a big hit with my kids. Very easy to setup and use
Biolux NV 20x-1280x

I made an updated Video

 

[dwest]

I've decided to get the same one @dwest is using. I found that it comes in black which will be more cosmetically appealing since it will match/blend in with my stand.

https://www.amazon.com/Aqua-Ultravi...ds=Aqua+57+UV&qid=1555468679&s=gateway&sr=8-3

Cool! Black is cheaper than white too. Never would have guessed. I don’t think that was an option a year ago.

Sorry about your frags, but glad things turned back for the good. This hobby....

 

[dwest]

Thank you for helping me with ID based on my little video.

I bought this microscope (Besser Biolux NV 20x-1280x ) with an integrated videocam. Already had a lot of fun - also a big hit with my kids. Very easy to setup and use
Biolux NV 20x-1280x

I made an updated Video

That’s awesome!

 

[Scottybgood]

The reefkeeping adventure continues. Now that my dino rollercoaster seems to be coasting into stable territory, I have some new "stuff" showing up. It is MOSTLY just in my fuge (though I have spotted a couple very small areas in the DT) of a golden/brown goop with some bubbles (maybe chrysophytes or something similar?) My cheap microscope is very hard to get a good focused picture on it, but here are a couple including a picture from the refugium where I could get a decent picture. It is also on the sides of the fuge section. Any ideas what it might be and any actions needed?

 

[m0jjen]

So another picture from me. Cant really get any better picture at the moment. What i do know is that
* UVC dont work (used it for about 3 weeks, no sigs of improvement)
* I have hair algae and increasing nutrients only increase hair algae, byt alot
* They kling onto and presumably consume hairalgae, Its regular GHA but in the tank its brown. Once i rins the hairalgae it goes green and leaves a brown residue (dino)
* Foul smell that i cant get rid of nomather what. Not sulfur, intense algae smell or something

So going dirty dont seem to do anything, UVC dont do anything. Now what?

 

[cmcoker]

Any idea on these? I borrowed a scope from work and forgot to grab slides so had to improvise with some plastic and it wasnt ideal. I will try for better pics tomorrow. None of these were motile, so I'm not sure what this is. Have issues with bubble algae, which is still going full force, this stuff has typical dino behaviour, forms mats on top of the bubble algae, and forms wisps in the water and a some stringiness. Bubbles during lights on, on powerheads, rocks, sand, not really on glass.
Thanks

 

[dwest]

Any idea on these? I borrowed a scope from work and forgot to grab slides so had to improvise with some plastic and it wasnt ideal. I will try for better pics tomorrow. None of these were motile, so I'm not sure what this is. Have issues with bubble algae, which is still going full force, this stuff has typical dino behaviour, forms mats on top of the bubble algae, and forms wisps in the water and a some stringiness. Bubbles during lights on, on powerheads, rocks, sand, not really on glass.
Thanks

I’m thinking chrysophytes. Let’s see what @taricha says.

 

[dwest]

So another picture from me. Cant really get any better picture at the moment. What i do know is that
* UVC dont work (used it for about 3 weeks, no sigs of improvement)
* I have hair algae and increasing nutrients only increase hair algae, byt alot
* They kling onto and presumably consume hairalgae, Its regular GHA but in the tank its brown. Once i rins the hairalgae it goes green and leaves a brown residue (dino)
* Foul smell that i cant get rid of nomather what. Not sulfur, intense algae smell or something

So going dirty dont seem to do anything, UVC dont do anything. Now what?

UV should help for dinos that go I to the water column. For us that usually means it will help with most types except amphidinium. Have your dinos been ID’d? Sorry, I’m not good at that.

For UV to work, we’ve learned that you need about 1 watt of UV per every 3 gallons of tank water, ideally plumbed from DT back to DT, with about 1-3 tank volumes of water flowing through it. Blowing them off of sand and rock with a turkey blaster will often help them get into the water column so UV can help.

If you don’t already, I would have GAC running to reduce dino toxins and odor.

Good luck.

 

[dwest]

The reefkeeping adventure continues. Now that my dino rollercoaster seems to be coasting into stable territory, I have some new "stuff" showing up. It is MOSTLY just in my fuge (though I have spotted a couple very small areas in the DT) of a golden/brown goop with some bubbles (maybe chrysophytes or something similar?) My cheap microscope is very hard to get a good focused picture on it, but here are a couple including a picture from the refugium where I could get a decent picture. It is also on the sides of the fuge section. Any ideas what it might be and any actions needed?

I get a little of what you are describing also. I’m thinking chrysophytes as well. As long as my as dinos are held back, I’m happy.

 

[Mykesocalreef]

Looking for an ID and a plan of attack. I believe this is ostreopsis? If so what is a good plan of attack? I tried reading through the thread but ended up just confusing myself. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!

 

[m0jjen]

UV should help for dinos that go I to the water column. For us that usually means it will help with most types except amphidinium. Have your dinos been ID’d? Sorry, I’m not good at that.

For UV to work, we’ve learned that you need about 1 watt of UV per every 3 gallons of tank water, ideally plumbed from DT back to DT, with about 1-3 tank volumes of water flowing through it. Blowing them off of sand and rock with a turkey blaster will often help them get into the water column so UV can help.

If you don’t already, I would have GAC running to reduce dino toxins and odor.

Good luck.

Been running a 39w deltec (brand new) for 3 weeks without any results. Straigt into the DT both in and outlet running it at 1000 lph so might wanna try to turn it down. Havent blastered them tho so might give it a try.

 

[Neoalchemist]

Been running a 39w deltec (brand new) for 3 weeks without any results. Straigt into the DT both in and outlet running it at 1000 lph so might wanna try to turn it down. Havent blastered them tho so might give it a try.

I might try turning the flow up a bit, doesn't sound right I know but in fiddling with the flow rate on my 90 I kept turning the flow down and getting bad or no results. It wasn't until I started to increase flow to between 300 and 400 gph that it made a real diff. And I started with a measured 300 gph.
100 gallons total
Jaebo 36 watt
Marineland 600gph utility pump
The Happy family. 4 species of dino including amphidimium.
Nutrient management and silicate dosing.

 

[saltyhog]

Looking for an ID and a plan of attack. I believe this is ostreopsis? If so what is a good plan of attack? I tried reading through the thread but ended up just confusing myself. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!

That is ostreopsis. That's somewhat good news though. The best plan is UV at 1watt/3 gallons (greater would be great) with flow through the UV at 1-3 times the system volume. Run GAC! This is very important because they release toxins as they die which can be even worse on your corals than the dinos. Keep your nitrates up (2.5-10 worked for me), phosphates 0.05-0.12 worked for me.

 

[saltyhog]

Looking for an ID and a plan of attack. I believe this is ostreopsis? If so what is a good plan of attack? I tried reading through the thread but ended up just confusing myself. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!

I was on my phone so it was difficult to say everything. Other things that may help include increasing biodiversity....like adding pods, beneficial bacteria, etc. Dosing silicates helps some people as diatoms may compete with the dinos for space...especially on the sand bed. Good luck! Keep us informed how it goes. This is an evolving knowledge base! Feed back helps.

 

[taricha]

So another picture from me. Cant really get any better picture at the moment. What i do know is that
* UVC dont work (used it for about 3 weeks, no sigs of improvement)
* I have hair algae and increasing nutrients only increase hair algae, byt alot
* They kling onto and presumably consume hairalgae, Its regular GHA but in the tank its brown. Once i rins the hairalgae it goes green and leaves a brown residue (dino)
* Foul smell that i cant get rid of nomather what. Not sulfur, intense algae smell or something

So going dirty dont seem to do anything, UVC dont do anything. Now what?

Been running a 39w deltec (brand new) for 3 weeks without any results. Straigt into the DT both in and outlet running it at 1000 lph so might wanna try to turn it down. Havent blastered them tho so might give it a try.

Thanks for posting again. Your case is interesting, been reading it for a couple of days but not had time to reply - Sorry. Your observations are great and helpful. I wanted to ask you some follow-ups, and give some thoughts.

So here's what I feel like we can conclude about yours.
a type of small cell amphidinium - movement and shape.
Moves incredibly fast, and generally faster more mobile swimmers tend to be more heterotrophic - hunting for nutrients (amphidinium).
It also hugs algae - epiphytic, and epiphytic dinos tend to be higher in toxins (ostreopsis, prorocentrum etc) because without toxins or foul smell/taste, they could get wiped out by any herbivore that comes along.
Amphidinium reports are rarely toxic, but when it is, it's almost always the smaller ones.
But generally the toxic epiphyte types move very little - so it's really blending dino habits here - toxic autotroph and mobile heterotroph.
The smell is fascinating. I have wondered for a long while if the smell that often accompanies dino toxin reports is us literally smelling the toxins themselves, or if it's like so many smells around us - bacteria byproducts. A big Dino population always has an associated bacterial community, and it's part of why they can reshape local chemistry and so effectively exclude other life.

If you can get your hands on Dr. Tim's waste-away, will disrupting the bacterial community kill off the smell? If so, does a change in smell herald a larger disruption of the dino community? My hope is yes.

The fact that these crazy fast swimmers haven't been affected by your UV means that they are not habitual water goers, and while life is good, they will not. Flow probably not the issue. But they are too good swimmers to stay bound where they are. If you change the environment, they will swim for it. Cutting the light period gradually shorter over a few days 10 hours to 6 to 4 , 2, etc. up to a short blackout if needed - under 48hrs - pushes reluctant dinos into the water.

Clearly they are not being hurt by competition with green hair algae, so export what you can of the dinos and GHA, while inputing inorganic nutrients, my sense is that larger macroalgae like chaeto, caulerpa, ulva etc are less hospitable to dino epiphytes - green hair algae can become a detritus trap and also as it grows, the algae underneath decays, so there's lots there that a heterotrophic dino can love.

Interested in your thoughts/comments.

 

[taricha]

Any idea on these? I borrowed a scope from work and forgot to grab slides so had to improvise with some plastic and it wasnt ideal. I will try for better pics tomorrow. None of these were motile, so I'm not sure what this is.

These super-tiny motionless almost totally round golden things check all the boxes for chrysophytes, as mentioned earlier. Chrysophytes thread.

After a month of elevated nitrate, this past Saturday and no change...if not worse, I started the “Dr Tim’s” method.

Waste away, skimmer off, vodka..etc.
day 3. Killed 5 fish including my large yellow tang who’s barely alive. Now a decent white cloud in the tank.

I'm really sorry for the lost livestock. thats terrible. hopefully this can help others.
I agree this is a bacterial bloom. The special instructions you posted talk constantly about that risk to this method. The normal Dr Tim's routine is much more gradual I think.
Also I suspect if there's lots of biomass in the system (thinking about your post here ), then the risk of a bloom is even higher. Obviously Tims is very effective at eating away what's in the tank, but this can easily get out of control. I think the idea has a lot of use - I'd do something similar on my own tank (maybe not black out at the same time at first) but we've gotta be really careful with it.
I understand those directions were written to achieve dramatic fast turn around that people hope for from a magic bottle of treatment, but well, the drawbacks are obvious.

 

[cmcoker]

Thanks @taricha

 

[m0jjen]

If you can get your hands on Dr. Tim's waste-away, will disrupting the bacterial community kill off the smell? If so, does a change in smell herald a larger disruption of the dino community? My hope is yes.

Yes, been doing microb-lift theraP and special blend and the smell gets good awfull 12-14 hours later.

The fact that these crazy fast swimmers have't been affected by your UV means that they are not habitual water goers, and while life is good, they will not. Flow probably not the issue. But they are too good swimmers to stay bound where they are. If you change the environment, they will swim for it. Cutting the light period gradually shorter over a few days 10 hours to 6 to 4 , 2, etc. up to a short blackout if needed - under 48hrs - pushes reluctant dinos into the water.

Clearly they are not being hurt by competition with green hair algae, so export what you can of the dinos and GHA, while inputing inorganic nutrients, my sense is that larger macroalgae like chaeto, caulerpa, ulva etc are less hospitable to dino epiphytes - green hair algae can become a detritus trap and also as it grows, the algae underneath decays, so there's lots there that a heterotrophic dino can love. Interested in your thoughts/comments.

tried starting a fuge lit by a kessil h80, cheato get overgrown with hairalgae and died pretty much. I have turned off my t5's adn will just run the lets for a period of time

 

[Jonreefer]

So is vinegar effective against Dinos?
I am at the point I am about to pull all my fish and put them in a temp tank and reboot this tank. I would drain and fill it 50/50 with vinegar and run the system that way for 24hr. Would hat kill it all?
I had them beat for a while and they came back and seem to be tougher this time. UV didnt have any impact on them this time