Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Lowefx]

That mostly depends on the particular dino you have.....there's (at least) one that doesn't seem to go into the water column in any appreciable numbers, so they'll never see the UV. Microscope ID required...but I can't remember if you diagnosed or not? Depending on that diagnosis, "most dino blooms" seem to respond.....unless you think you might return the UV, I'd hook it up.

Here's my previous post for a microscope.

 

[taricha]

That mostly depends on the particular dino you have.....there's (at least) one that doesn't seem to go into the water column in any appreciable numbers, so they'll never see the UV. Microscope ID required...but I can't remember if you diagnosed or not? Depending on that diagnosis, "most dino blooms" seem to respond.....unless you think you might return the UV, I'd hook it up.

See my post #747. He's got the kind that doesn't offer itself up easily in the water column.
Gotta get creative. Or patient.

I've dosed 21.1 ml (.81 ppm!) of phosphorus in the last 11 days and every day I check the phosphates the levels are between 0 ppb and 12 ppb (0.00-0.037). I've been upping my dose each time but keep coming back to super low phosphates! I can't believe how nutrient limited my tank is!

Dinos grip on tank chemistry is constantly shocking. We don't realize how strong it is until we try to break it. And we wonder why nothing else does well in a dino tank!

Should I pull more of the macros out of the refugium? I hesitate to remove it for some reason. There is a lot of room left to grow in the refugium area... I don't think the macros are limited by anything but nutrients.

Nope. Keep the macros happy and growing. Keep shifting the competition away from low P and N to different battle field. The dinos don't fare as well there.

 

[Jason mack]

a better pic

Yes they look like dino's

 

[mcarroll]

@Lowefx just looked back through and saw that this is large cell amphidinium.
This kind doesn't respond to UV, and is typically low or non toxic. However your coral problems would make me run GAC in case toxins are having an effect.
Don't know of good methods for cell removal with this kind other than siphoning.
I've wondered if using a powerhead with a venturi intake to make tiny bubbles would lift mucus/dinos/cyano off the sand.
The people that have battled Large Cell Amphidinium successfully (myself included) relied more heavily on elevated nutrients and adding algae ave associated grazers. Things turned for me when I put blobs of chaeto right on top of the brown patches.

The lightening may be places where some grazers are having an effect.

+1 (again)

And I can definitely see both ways on the macro issue. (In a nutshell I suggested to pull it.) If there are qualms about the amount being dosed, I thought maybe removing the macro could make sense/soothe nerves at least by (I'm assuming a little here about how much effect there might be) reducing total demand for N and P during this initial phase.

Certainly I think if you want macro algae it makes sense to have it in there "asap" if not necessarily from the absolute beginning of treatment, and for the reasons you stated!

I really like the idea of chaeto being placed right on the dino's. Did it cure them? Or did they happily migrate away from the substrate up onto one of their preferred locations in nature to resume a non-blooming photosynthetic lifestyle? Aesthetically does it even matter?

 

[zachxlutz]

Dinos grip on tank chemistry is constantly shocking. We don't realize how strong it is until we try to break it. And we wonder why nothing else does well in a dino tank!

Nope. Keep the macros happy and growing. Keep shifting the competition away from low P and N to different battle field. The dinos don't fare as well there.

Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate y'all, @taricha and @mcarroll, for helping out and being such great members of the reefing community!

 

[Lowefx]

Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate y'all, @taricha and @mcarroll, for helping out and being such great members of the reefing community!

I agree. Even though I'm still battling this issue, you guys have been great help. I'm sure I will have more questions. And thank you for your patience with this stuff and all of our questions.

 

[landlubber]

my battle has been recognized for a month or so now and while i'm not making a ton of headway it doesn't seem to be affecting my corals quite as much. dinos seem to thrive on the trace elements provided by my reef salt so we're supposed to abstain from water changes. my question is how long should i carry this on?

 

[mcarroll]

my battle has been recognized for a month or so now and while i'm not making a ton of headway it doesn't seem to be affecting my corals quite as much. dinos seem to thrive on the trace elements provided by my reef salt so we're supposed to abstain from water changes. my question is how long should i carry this on?

I'm glad you're seeing at least some signs of improvement!

I don't know about them using trace elements or anything like that.....AFAIK all their bad behaviors are driven by NO3 and PO4 (or the lack of them).

I would resume water changes and I would concentrate on gravel vacuuming to get as much detritus out as you can. The bacterial breakdown of the detritus from the old dino cells is what's taking up all the nutrients you're dosing....so the more you remove the better in terms of stabilizing nutrients AND the tank.

I would also plan to keep dosing nutrients into the foreseeable future, at least until this is a distant memory.

So how are you dosing (can it be easier?) and what levels of N and P are you currently maintaining?

 

[landlubber]

I'm glad you're seeing at least some signs of improvement!

I don't know about them using trace elements or anything like that.....AFAIK all their bad behaviors are driven by NO3 and PO4 (or the lack of them).

I would resume water changes and I would concentrate on gravel vacuuming to get as much detritus out as you can. The bacterial breakdown of the detritus from the old dino cells is what's taking up all the nutrients you're dosing....so the more you remove the better in terms of stabilizing nutrients AND the tank.

I would also plan to keep dosing nutrients into the foreseeable future, at least until this is a distant memory.

So how are you dosing (can it be easier?) and what levels of N and P are you currently maintaining?

ok i must have been anecdotal info i got elsewhere. i am dosing potassium nitrate and seachem phosphorus at the recommended .10ppm of phos and the 5-10ppm of nitrate. i will certainly do a water change tomorrow and see where it takes me.

 

[m0jjen]

Im pretty curious to what the phosphate is used for. I've been dosing 0.05 ppm morning and night for over a week now. Thats 0.1 ppm phosphate daily. Everytime i messure (once daily) i adjust the phosphate since its never been 0.1. This means im dosing roughly 0.14-0.15 ppm phosphate daily in total the last week. Yet today, i once again messure 0.06 ppm phosphate. This means that i have a useage of roughly 0.15 ppm DAILY atm. But with no extream algae bloom, just some here and there, No intesne scraping of the glas and so on, where does it all go? Dino dont seem to be getting worse either.

Sure i have a pretty intense export system with my nyos quantum 160 which is constantly working, a small fuge (0nly 3% of total volum, and limited by me feeding it with low flow) along with some siporax in both reactor and crates. But i highly doubt that it should consume all this phosphate?

 

[mcarroll]

Everytime i messure (once daily) i adjust the phosphate since its never been 0.1. This means im dosing roughly 0.14-0.15 ppm phosphate daily in total the last week. Yet today, i once again messure 0.06 ppm phosphate. This means that i have a useage of roughly 0.15 ppm DAILY atm. But with no extream algae bloom, just some here and there, No intesne scraping of the glas and so on, where does it all go? Dino dont seem to be getting worse either.

Like I said earlier (but bears repeating! maybe time for a first-post-update!) it's actually the dino's working against you – it's not your imagination or anything else.

Every dino that's ever been born in your tank leaves behind a high-carbon skeleton.

Bacteria go to town on this nearly-unlimited carbon source – essentially co-blooming with the dino's – and in the process use up all remaining N and P (one or both) in the system.

Bacteria are able to harvest nutrients down to a much lower level than other organisms, so generally nothing else can grow once the tank gets into this condition – there's no N and P for growth or repair of a more complex organism. Dino's, however, have a trick up their sleeves....when they begin to starve, rather than die off like a "good little plant" they simply switch from dissolved nutrients and photosynthesis over to bacterivory, or bacteria-eating! They literally become bacteria farmers that compost their own skeletons to keep the environment nutrient limited.

So, dose N and P as needed and smile while you do it!

Make sure 0.10 ppma nd 5-10 ppm are your minimums (not your maximums) so you get the greatest effect.

Not directly because of this, but assuming you have a normal sand/rock situation in the display I would consider removing the excess bio-media from elsewhere in the system. At most I'd use macroalgae or an ATS....but in a system that's still hampered by lack of nutrients I'm not sure I'd use any of them. Wait until there's actually a "nutrient problem" before engaging any exports. The skimmer is mostly there for aeration IMO....nutrient export is minimal, so keep it running! (Aeration is much more important than nutrient removal, BTW.)

 

[Cscultho]

Like I said earlier (but bears repeating! maybe time for a first-post-update!) it's actually the dino's working against you – it's not your imagination or anything else.

Every dino that's ever been born in your tank leaves behind a high-carbon skeleton.

Bacteria go to town on this nearly-unlimited carbon source – essentially co-blooming with the dino's – and in the process use up all remaining N and P (one or both) in the system.

Bacteria are able to harvest nutrients down to a much lower level than other organisms, so generally nothing else can grow once the tank gets into this condition – there's no N and P for growth or repair of a more complex organism. Dino's, however, have a trick up their sleeves....when they begin to starve, rather than die off like a "good little plant" they simply switch from dissolved nutrients and photosynthesis over to bacterivory, or bacteria-eating! They literally become bacteria farmers that compost their own skeletons to keep the environment nutrient limited.

So, dose N and P as needed and smile while you do it!

Make sure 0.10 ppma nd 5-10 ppm are your minimums (not your maximums) so you get the greatest effect.

Not directly because of this, but assuming you have a normal sand/rock situation in the display I would consider removing the excess bio-media from elsewhere in the system. At most I'd use macroalgae or an ATS....but in a system that's still hampered by lack of nutrients I'm not sure I'd use any of them. Wait until there's actually a "nutrient problem" before engaging any exports. The skimmer is mostly there for aeration IMO....nutrient export is minimal, so keep it running! (Aeration is much more important than nutrient removal, BTW.)

@mcarroll....with that being said, I still continue to lose the battle with ostreopsis with N&P levels elevated. So i ended up removing 99% of my sand bed in hopes of getting rid of the majority of dinos. also did a small water change and netted the access dinos out. So my question is since i believe ostreopsis lives in and on the sand bed versus the water column, what is the life expectancy of a dino? I ultimately want to add live sand back into my tank in a month or two but i dont want to repeat this misery again.

 

[m0jjen]

That would explain the white bacteria film i have here and there

 

[taricha]

And I can definitely see both ways on the macro issue. If there are qualms about the amount being dosed, I thought maybe removing the macro could make sense/soothe nerves at least by reducing total demand for N and P during this initial phase.

Certainly I think if you want macro algae it makes sense to have it in there "asap" if not necessarily from the absolute beginning of treatment, and for the reasons you stated!

To keep reply short, I'll just agree there's definitely a lot of sense in operating in phases, like you suggest. The tank may benefit from having some N & P stick around (perhaps to "burn up" stores of C dinos have hidden in the system) without macros immediately drinking it up.

Overall, my thought on macros in a general dino bloom is that as long as there is room to grow, more is better: IF dinos growth stalls as trace elements get depleted, then feeding a big growing macro biomass all the N & P it can consume will eventually deplete some trace element to the point that dino growth stalls. IF the macros suppress dino growth through supporting a population of pod, ciliate, or bacterial grazers and competitiors to the dinos, then a big biomass helps there too. IF macros can slow dino growth through some allelopathic interaction then more is better there as well.

I really like the idea of chaeto being placed right on the dino's. Did it cure them? Or did they happily migrate away from the substrate up onto one of their preferred locations in nature to resume a non-blooming photosynthetic lifestyle? Aesthetically does it even matter?

I've been thinking about this macroalgae right on top of the dino sand versus Large Cell Amphidinium. Went back and looked at my old stuff to think through what happened from the perspective of 1.5 years of dino observation later...

Here's a photo album for before/during/after shots. https://goo.gl/photos/BYt7ix6Ti9yyLzFT9

Feb 12th Dinos were bad

....So I threw some Chaeto and Caulaerpa right on top of them...

...then it took me a month to get N & P finally sustainably elevated (I eventually figured that overfeeding was for the birds - dosing only chance at sanity).
By Feb 29th improvement started showing up - under the macros first and best right under the chaeto blob...

...and on March 14th I had gorgeous white sand....

So why did the chaeto push the Large-Cell Amphidinium out? I see 3 possibilities - and saw some signs that all 3 had an effect:
1. Shading the sand surface - this is effective because this kind of dino really doesn't have the tools to go anywhere else, sand/rubble/rock is all it can do. Its shape and movement is very limiting in that sense.
2. Direct contact with grazers - check this photo I found from march 14th - after the sand went white. There's like 8 amphipods and a couple of Isopods all within a 2"x3" patch where the chaeto blob meets the sand.

3. Trace element competition - around march 14th Dinos and cyano populations collapsed and other organisms showed some signs that could have been iron (or other trace element) limitation. I then dosed a cocktail of trace elements and a couple of patches of dinos made a small resurgence over the next 2-3 days. But the tank was ultimately too unfriendly to the Amphidinium at that point and the patches went away no matter what I dosed into the tank.

So yeah. Large cell Amphidinium is a diffierent critter than ostreopsis (and other dinos). And big blobs of chaeto right on the dino sand may turn out to be really effective for others too.

 

[taricha]

So yeah. Large cell Amphidinium is a diffierent critter than ostreopsis (and other dinos). And big blobs of chaeto right on the dino sand may turn out to be really effective for others too.

This was unclear. I meant chaeto blobs on sand might work for other people, not that it might work for other kinds of dinos.

 

[zachxlutz]

Lots of eerily similar situations going on in here recently! I'd love to try the macro algae in the display trick but I'm afraid I'd never get any chaeto to stay in place with the amount of flow I have and the constant harassment the chaeto would get from the foxface. He loves the stuff!

 

[landlubber]

2. Direct contact with grazers - check this photo I found from march 14th - after the sand went white. There's like 8 amphipods and a couple of Isopods all within a 2"x3" patch where the chaeto blob meets the sand.

after a cycle of flucanozole and the disappearance of my algae i really noticed a stunt to my population of copepods and soon after along came dinos. i've ordered a couple of bottles to get them back in the system and while you may not know the answer to this i thought i'd still ask... how major of a player are copepods and the like in the battle against dinos?

 

[m0jjen]

Interesting stuff. Regarding the carbon-skeleton and what not, i have observed some "swings" in my PH. Usually when my dino count is low due to manual removal or something else my ph resides around 7.9 - 8.2. While the dino is abit worse and blooming my ph goes to 8.0/8.1 - 8.3 in a 24h cycle. Im guessing this is related to them using carbondioxide? If they do use it, wouldnt that mean my calcium reactor and the co2 from it is benificial for the dinos?

If that is the case it would make sense that macroalgae would work on a specific area since it should absorb some co2 in that particular area?

 

[m0jjen]

Also, i cant recall if there was any objections on dosing live phytoplankton during this treatment. Maybe it is and i missed it?

 

[taricha]

after a cycle of flucanozole and the disappearance of my algae i really noticed a stunt to my population of copepods and soon after along came dinos. i've ordered a couple of bottles to get them back in the system and while you may not know the answer to this i thought i'd still ask... how major of a player are copepods and the like in the battle against dinos?

Check my post #4322 linked here on 'pods https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d...ow-along-and-see.253917/page-217#post-3830256

Basically, evidence for helping out with our dinos: isopods and amphipods yes, copepods not so much. And nothing can eat very many of the toxic dinos. Grazers have to take a back seat to cell export/killing with ostreopsis etc.
But with amphidinium, I think the right grazers are a big effect.