Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Brian barranco]

Q. When I get the filter floss for the poor mans UV, Can I also use that to siphon the sand bed - turn off the ATO and pumps, siphon through the floss into a bucket and then return the filtered water into the tank? Or would that be counter productive by removing the good organisms I'm trying to cultivate to fight the dinos?

I siphon as much as possible on a 25% water change . But i agree what you want to do. The uv would do the rest.

 

[GeoSquid]

Keeping dinos off of corals is crucial for coral survival. Check this post below on an easy way to export any dinos that are settling on coral tips etc.

The poor man's UV seems to kind of be doing what my ATS is.

 

[taricha]

optimal values to keep when the tank has healed! no3: 5ppm and po4 0.01 or 0.1 ppm?

finally advice on what to buy for tests! better hanna HI-714 (from 0 to 0.90) or hanna HI-713 (from 0 to 2.50) ?? and for NO3?

"optimal" implies that we understand all the relevant factors involved in a dino bloom, and we certainly don't.
My system can grow dinos if I get PO4 under 0.10, but not above. Others can do the same at 0.05 - depends on nutrient flow in the system. NO3 fine at 2 or 5 or whatever your tank needs to be sure you aren't zero.

Q. When I get the filter floss for the poor mans UV, Can I also use that to siphon the sand bed - turn off the ATO and pumps, siphon through the floss into a bucket and then return the filtered water into the tank?

not really. filter floss is way too loose to stop dinos that way - as a true filter - you'll only catch other stuff mostly. It works in a high flow area because the tank turnover puts many many times the tank volume blowing past it per day, and the dinos attach to the rough surface.

The poor man's UV seems to kind of be doing what my ATS is.

yep! Unlike you, most people have a hard time getting dinos in a display to migrate to a sump and be exported there.

 

[andrewey]

@taricha
Thanks for all the time you've put into this research into dinos!

I was curious if you have any thoughts on when a previously infected system can start returning to "normal" (e.g. performing water changes, lowering phosphate). I was curious if you've observed any benchmarks that correlate well with a tank being able to handle a gradual change in nutrients without an associated recurrence of dinoflagellates? Obviously this likely depends on the species of dino and a million other tank-specific variables including biodiversity, nutrient levels, and current treatment strategies, but I was curious if you've seen any large trends?

 

[ScottB]

It was a bit that I no longer saw ostreopsis in the tank, not even several fields analyzed under a microscope, I decided to slowly decrease no3 and po4 which I kept at EXAGERATED values.
unfortunately my tests were probably not very good, and I dropped too much nutrients and they are back!

So I ask you advice on what should be the optimal values to keep when the tank has healed! no3: 5ppm and po4 0.01 or 0.1 ppm?

finally advice on what to buy for tests! better hanna HI-714 (from 0 to 0.90) or hanna HI-713 (from 0 to 2.50) ?? and for NO3?
@taricha

774 phosphator 736 phosphorus and do the conversion.
For nitrates I now prefer NYOS kit over the Red Sea.
As for nutrients I keep around 10-15 nitrate and somewhere close to .1 PO4.

sorry for the setback. Pretty common tho.

 

[Michael Gray]

After I beat Dino's. I actually think I'm planning to keep my nutrients po4 at around .1. That being said .075 to .1. .075 will be the lowest I ever allow my po4 to go from now on. And that's going to be taking the Hanna phosphorus ulr checker and using the +- 5ppb to it. I will always assume the lowest read and subtract 5. I figure that's safest and from what I've read acros can thrive in .1.

 

[ScottB]

After I beat Dino's. I actually think I'm planning to keep my nutrients po4 at around .1. That being said .075 to .1. .075 will be the lowest I ever allow my po4 to go from now on. And that's going to be taking the Hanna phosphorus ulr checker and using the +- 5ppb to it. I will always assume the lowest read and subtract 5. I figure that's safest and from what I've read acros can thrive in .1.

Agree with your limits for one of my systems (frag). Anything below .1 and I will see ostreos mounting a comeback.

While my older DT cruises easily along at .05 PO4. For the 1000th time: every system is different. For me, it is what it is for now. At least I have learned this much just by watching and tracking these two unique biomes.

 

[ScottB]

After I beat Dino's. I actually think I'm planning to keep my nutrients po4 at around .1. That being said .075 to .1. .075 will be the lowest I ever allow my po4 to go from now on. And that's going to be taking the Hanna phosphorus ulr checker and using the +- 5ppb to it. I will always assume the lowest read and subtract 5. I figure that's safest and from what I've read acros can thrive in .1.

I am acropora mostly and can confirm they will be fine at +.1 PO4.

That said, I am a believer that heavy fish load is part of this. In my case zebrasoma tangs and one-spot rabbits in particular. They totally control any algae that can try to make a move with my nutrient and light. Just my experience.

 

[taricha]

any thoughts on when a previously infected system can start returning to "normal" (e.g. performing water changes, lowering phosphate). I was curious if you've observed any benchmarks that correlate well with a tank being able to handle a gradual change in nutrients without an associated recurrence of dinoflagellates? Obviously this likely depends on the species of dino and a million other tank-specific variables including biodiversity, nutrient levels, and current treatment strategies, but I was curious if you've seen any large trends?

this answer from earlier gets at it a little bit.

If 1) I see no visible signs [no bubbles, strings, mucus, brown patches]
2) all livestock, including corals, and nutrient consumption (Alk, N , P) act as though there are no dinos.
3) normal maintenance (water changes, dosing, disconnecting UV) does not restart dinos
4) the above are in place for 3-4 weeks ...
Then I'd feel like a system is "over it".
But cells remain. Some high risk things still won't be possible for a long time, without risking a return

on number 2) above I'd add that snails / grazers start to behave normally again. People usually report corals both look healthier and happier, and alk consumption resurges.
It's interesting that these responses of the tank organisms to the subsiding chemistry of the dinos is slower than the physical cell disappearance. Dino chemistry is powerful, and we don't fully know how to counteract it. Otherwise we wouldn't lose so many corals.

Reducing nutrients is hard to do safely. But it probably has less to do with the nutrient numbers than the mechanisms of reduction. Letting nutrients come down by increased consumption and algal biomass export is pretty safe. Carbon dosing less safe, throttling back food inputs is pretty risky, stripping PO4 by binding with GFO may be a permanent no-no.
Additionally, those who are able to run lower nutrient numbers without dino problems, seem to have in common that they actually have higher nutrient inputs, which may mean they are avoiding the starvation risks (that collapse diversity) with lower numbers than others have.

 

[Gildo]

- Do I understand that P is the most critical value?
- Sorry but having never used Hanna 774, I ask you, it measures from 0 to 0.09 if therefore I wanted to keep po4 above 0.1 is it useless?
- For the no3 instead a photometer is useless?

- And instead someone has some positive experience with the dino vs ozonator?

 

[ScottB]

- Do I understand that P is the most critical value?
- Sorry but having never used Hanna 774, I ask you, it measures from 0 to 0.09 if therefore I wanted to keep po4 above 0.1 is it useless?
- For the no3 instead a photometer is useless?

- And instead someone has some positive experience with the dino vs ozonator?

Personally I use the Phosphorus meter but am in the minority and don't mind the conversion math. Technically it has the best precision and resolution. I will refer you to the resolution and range as listed by BRS as I am lazy and trusting of their descriptions. It states:

0 to .9 (not .09) is this one https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/phos...rimeter-hi774-hanna-checker-marine-water.html

0 to 2.5 is this one https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/phos...i713-hanna-checker-hc-fresh-marine-water.html
But any of the three will work just fine.

In the context of preventing dinos, I don't have an opinion which nutrient measure is most critical to monitor. My experience is that dinos are able to deplete PO4 rather quickly and require dosing large amounts to restore measurable amounts in the water.

Which photometer are you using for NO3? I have only used API, Red Sea, and NYOS. I prefer NYOS for the range of nitrate that I keep. Red Sea is probably better for ultra low nutrient measurement.

 

[taricha]

- Do I understand that P is the most critical value?
- Sorry but having never used Hanna 774, I ask you, it measures from 0 to 0.09 if therefore I wanted to keep po4 above 0.1 is it useless?
- For the no3 instead a photometer is useless?

- And instead someone has some positive experience with the dino vs ozonator?

Very low (or rapidly dropped) PO4 often shows up as a dino factor. Moreso than NO3.
as scott says here...

0 to .9 (not .09) is this one https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/phos...rimeter-hi774-hanna-checker-marine-water.html

that's a good range. Can't see why anyone would have a need to run a system outside of that PO4 range.
(Like Scott, I still like my Phosphorus ppb meter - hi736, and do the conversion)

Not seen reports of oxydator vs dinos. Would be interested to see. Ozone was often useful, peroxide not as much.

 

[Michael Gray]

@taricha u say keep doing this until don't see any dino for 3 weeks or so. That being said. Visually see Dino's in tank or not a single cell in the microscope. Cause I'm dosing silicates so tank looks crazy infested but under scope. It's diatoms with little Dino's.

Do I dose silicates until I can't find a single cell in microscope. Lol this might go for ever. Ahah

 

[taricha]

That being said. Visually see Dino's in tank or not a single cell in the microscope. Cause I'm dosing silicates so tank looks crazy infested but under scope. It's diatoms with little Dino's.

visually see dinos (strings, bubbles, slime, brown, etc). a microscope could find a few dino cells in every tank (I think). it's okay to export diatoms (vacuum) or to add a few snails/pods that would eat them - if you have none in your tank. I don't worry about grazers dying if they have a great supply of non-dino food. The diatom bloom will fade also, even if Si remains in the water.

 

[Michael Gray]

visually see dinos (strings, bubbles, slime, brown, etc). a microscope could find a few dino cells in every tank (I think). it's okay to export diatoms (vacuum) or to add a few snails/pods that would eat them - if you have none in your tank. I don't worry about grazers dying if they have a great supply of non-dino food. The diatom bloom will fade also, even if Si remains in the water.

I kinda noticed that. I'm dosing the same amount and sand isn't as brown. Like diatoms aren't as bad visually. I was wondering if I should up dose or just keep dosing. As it fades.

 

[AaronFReef]

So do you need to ramp lights back up for acros after a blackout? I run a Kessil 360x at 100% and 20% color and four T5s. My photo period ramped from 11AM slowly to 2 PM then peak til 8 PM the. ramps down to 915.

I just completed my most intense blackout yet at three days covered with cardboard all around and my 15w UV running in the display as it always is.... I have good aeration in my 2x2 lagoon with a gyre and mp40 at the surface and a sump with skimmer which provides lots of air so I didn’t sweat covering the top 90%. pH was stable at 8.15 where it hovers early morning usually. It didn’t seem to make a difference. I’m thinking I might need to re ID my strain because they were pretty visible on the sand as soon as I took the cardboard off. Perhaps some cyano has replaced them but two weeks ago I still found lots of dinos when I drew a sample under the microscope. Perhaps an odd UV resistant strain and one that doesn’t go mobile at night...?

here’s the last video I can find from two weeks ago:

 

[GeoSquid]

My Dino scrubber!

 

[Michael Gray]

@taricha why does Diatoms fade if i continue to dose Silicate to outcompete dinos.. we dose to push for a diatom bloom and continue to dose... they just fade and no longer flourish while dosing silicates? lol i hope my dinos go away before my diatoms stop flourishing then........ crapppp

 

[Justdrew]

My microscope got here today. I took a little sample from a patch on the sidewall. I have a attached a few videos and pics of the tank and scope. I'm not overrun by any means. I blow with a turkey baster daily to keep it off the frags. This all started when I decided to go a different route with the tank. I didn't have any acros and a little bit of sand. I have Starboard on the bottom so I occasionally go back and forth with bare bottom or not. I decided I was bored with what I had as the hammer is huge, the monti is a weed (threw away about 12-13 inches of it a few weeks ago), and 50 heads of duncan is enough. So I vacuumed out the rest of the sand and rearranged the rock in preparation for some acros. This and bottomed out N&P kicked them off. I really only have the thicker patch on the side that I purposefully didn't clean knowing the scope was coming, see it in a pic below. On the rocks I get little patches and strings. Very minor and easily blown off with a turkey baster. There is hardly ever any sight of them on the bottom. This tank has been in this spot for 6 years. The rock itself is about 18 years old and was real live rock but has been sterilized with bleach and acid wash many years ago due to dictyota.

I have been dosing Vibrant twice a week for about 6 weeks now. It cleaned up everything else but the dinos now. I dose N&P to keep .05-.1 PO4 and 5-10ppm NO3. A week ago I grabbed a 24W green killing machine. Seeing the videos and seeing what looks like Osteo, I would have expected more from the Killing Machine. I may go bigger if I need to. In one of the videos I also see much smaller circles with the Osteo. I have been running extra filter floss daily in old hagen 802. Let me know what you see and any recommendations.

Thanks
Drew

 

[NS Mike D]

Day 3 of lights out (approaching 48 hours)

Yesterday I decided to do something about the HOB fuge.

Close up. less that 50% of the fuge looked like this, but it was only a matter of time.

So while I don't want to deplete the pods, better that I reset the fuge and wait it out until the pods arrive and I can start to culture them - about 2 more months.

I removed all the rubble rock, about a gallon containers worth and the cheato. I scrubbed the cleanest ones and retuned them back into the fuge, rinsed and cleaned the cheato (about the size of the golf ball) returned and then ran the water through a mesh bag.

Then I turned off the lights to the HOB. Happy that there are some pods left.

The lower sump looks great. No signs of dinos, a egg crate basket 80% full of rubble rock and the cheato has quickly expanded to about 1.5" thick covering about 80% of the top of the basket. That shades the rubble rock (keeps dinos from colonizing on them) and sponges are establishing. I did see a few pods there.

NO3 went from 1.5ppm on Sunday to 4+ppm yesterday. I did not do a second high nitrate test (red sea) to get an better number, but 10-20 would not surprise me.

Dosing a little phyto. Had to order activated carbon and filter media (poor mans uv) as no one carried both in stock.

Once we know which dinos I have, then I can decide on a bacteria dosing program.

I'm fortunate that I started this early.