Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Marc2952]

Here is my Dinos theory for why dinoflagellates are more difficult now:

So last night, I decided to look up what several old school reefing books and blogs said about dealing with Dinos. Almost all initially say its a fairly rare thing, and shouldn't really pop up. Then they go on to say that if you do get them that you should limit your nutrient intake, the same way they'd recommend dealing with most other algae issues. Below is a compilation of the different suggestions commonly used in the "old school methods" by the greats such as Bob Fenner, Anthony Calfo, RHF, Leonard Ho, SonnyX, etc.

https://reefs.com/2011/03/16/how-i-beat-dinoflagellates-and-the-lessons-i-learned/
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php#11
http://reefsite.com/2015/01/dinoflagellates-and-the-treament-of/

These 7 are almost always recommended:

1. Run granular activated carbon (GAC) to remove as much of these toxins as possible
2. 3 day black-out. Make sure to aggressively run your protein skimmer (or use air pumps) during this time as oxygen levels can get dangerously low.
3. Several large water changes
4. Manually removal: Siphoning off any dinoflagellates you can find, in addition to siphoning the sand bed. A 10 micron filter sock can be installed in the sump to catch fine particulates if not doing a water change.
5. Reduce photo period and/or intensity & run only blues or actinics.
6. Feed conservatively to keep nutrient levels low.
7. Use Kalkwasser for supplementation, ideally maintain pH above 8.4 with kalkwasser.

These bottom 3 are recommended on most publications after 2010, but in early 2000's I don't see these mentioned:

1. For two weeks after the second water change, I added hydrogen peroxide (3% h202 solution commonly sold in supermarkets) at a rate of 1ml per 10 gallon per day, ozone or UV sterilizers would serve the same purpose.
2. Dose DIY Zeo Coral Snow daily (Calcium Carbonate https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-kz-coral-snow-with-97purity.211722/ ) This is a flocculent to help bind and remove the free floating Dino’s. - Turkey bast the rocks and sand to get as many dinos free floating as possible so they get bound to the Calcium Carbonate slurry. Turkey Baster combined with the blackout was key to getting the dinos free floating so they could bind to the "Coral Snow".
3. Add good bacteria (MB7, Dr Tims, Seachem Stability, etc)

I find this to be obviously mostly different from the treatment methods that are primarily suggested now. Which is primarily keep PO4 and NO3 elevated above zero, ideally through dosing (feeding is ok sometimes too) to keep PO4 0.5-0.2ppm~ and NO3 2-20ppm~. This is the main recommendation from what I can see. This in addition to adding good bacteria for bio diversity, maybe run a UV, maybe do a blackout, run carbon, etc.

The main difference is how nutrients are handled:
Old school tank set up: Go slow! Established live rock, live sand, slowly add fish, slowly add corals (NO SPS until after year 1). Filtration was 1-2lbs+ of live rock per gallon (even if mostly in the sump), and a skimmer, carbon, simple set ups.

New school tank set up: dry dead rock, dry or live sand, add bacteria and pure ammonia, fish added quickly, any corals added quickly, skimmer, filter roller and/or socks, GFO, Carbon, tons of bio media (matrix, bricks, etc), refugiums/ATS/Chaeto Reactors, Supplements, etc from the start.

The main thing I’m noticing is that not only are new tanks not starting with established live rock, they are also usually running all of the equipment you would want to add into your system later on when nutrient levels begin to rise above levels that you find easy to manage naturally.

Live rock might of reached “full saturation” of phosphate, while new/dry rock and bio media still hasn’t reached saturation yet.


TL; DR:
My main theory is that because dry rock & sand hasn't reached full phosphate saturation, that is (COULD be) the problem we have with dinos. It may be worthwhile to load up the new rocks with phosphate during the cycle to prevent this from happening. Old tanks used to be much more stable and bacteria, coralline algae, and diversity is usually what is talked about. That makes sense, and they are obvious things to think about, however I think MAYBE phosphate saturation of the rocks and sand should probably be part of this conversation.

I haven't really tested this theory, but to me it seems to be one of the main missing factors in this dinos equation.

Interesting it explains why it took me 4 full bottles of neophos to bring the levels above 0, i was starting to think my hanna test kit was bugged lol

 

[enb141]

Here is my Dinos theory for why dinoflagellates are more difficult now:

So last night, I decided to look up what several old school reefing books and blogs said about dealing with Dinos. Almost all initially say its a fairly rare thing, and shouldn't really pop up. Then they go on to say that if you do get them that you should limit your nutrient intake, the same way they'd recommend dealing with most other algae issues. Below is a compilation of the different suggestions commonly used in the "old school methods" by the greats such as Bob Fenner, Anthony Calfo, RHF, Leonard Ho, SonnyX, etc.

https://reefs.com/2011/03/16/how-i-beat-dinoflagellates-and-the-lessons-i-learned/
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php#11
http://reefsite.com/2015/01/dinoflagellates-and-the-treament-of/

These 7 are almost always recommended:

1. Run granular activated carbon (GAC) to remove as much of these toxins as possible
2. 3 day black-out. Make sure to aggressively run your protein skimmer (or use air pumps) during this time as oxygen levels can get dangerously low.
3. Several large water changes
4. Manually removal: Siphoning off any dinoflagellates you can find, in addition to siphoning the sand bed. A 10 micron filter sock can be installed in the sump to catch fine particulates if not doing a water change.
5. Reduce photo period and/or intensity & run only blues or actinics.
6. Feed conservatively to keep nutrient levels low.
7. Use Kalkwasser for supplementation, ideally maintain pH above 8.4 with kalkwasser.

These bottom 3 are recommended on most publications after 2010, but in early 2000's I don't see these mentioned:

1. For two weeks after the second water change, I added hydrogen peroxide (3% h202 solution commonly sold in supermarkets) at a rate of 1ml per 10 gallon per day, ozone or UV sterilizers would serve the same purpose.
2. Dose DIY Zeo Coral Snow daily (Calcium Carbonate https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-kz-coral-snow-with-97purity.211722/ ) This is a flocculent to help bind and remove the free floating Dino’s. - Turkey bast the rocks and sand to get as many dinos free floating as possible so they get bound to the Calcium Carbonate slurry. Turkey Baster combined with the blackout was key to getting the dinos free floating so they could bind to the "Coral Snow".
3. Add good bacteria (MB7, Dr Tims, Seachem Stability, etc)

I find this to be obviously mostly different from the treatment methods that are primarily suggested now. Which is primarily keep PO4 and NO3 elevated above zero, ideally through dosing (feeding is ok sometimes too) to keep PO4 0.5-0.2ppm~ and NO3 2-20ppm~. This is the main recommendation from what I can see. This in addition to adding good bacteria for bio diversity, maybe run a UV, maybe do a blackout, run carbon, etc.

The main difference is how nutrients are handled:
Old school tank set up: Go slow! Established live rock, live sand, slowly add fish, slowly add corals (NO SPS until after year 1). Filtration was 1-2lbs+ of live rock per gallon (even if mostly in the sump), and a skimmer, carbon, simple set ups.

New school tank set up: dry dead rock, dry or live sand, add bacteria and pure ammonia, fish added quickly, any corals added quickly, skimmer, filter roller and/or socks, GFO, Carbon, tons of bio media (matrix, bricks, etc), refugiums/ATS/Chaeto Reactors, Supplements, etc from the start.

The main thing I’m noticing is that not only are new tanks not starting with established live rock, they are also usually running all of the equipment you would want to add into your system later on when nutrient levels begin to rise above levels that you find easy to manage naturally.

Live rock might of reached “full saturation” of phosphate, while new/dry rock and bio media still hasn’t reached saturation yet.


TL; DR:
My main theory is that because dry rock & sand hasn't reached full phosphate saturation, that is (COULD be) the problem we have with dinos. It may be worthwhile to load up the new rocks with phosphate during the cycle to prevent this from happening. Old tanks used to be much more stable and bacteria, coralline algae, and diversity is usually what is talked about. That makes sense, and they are obvious things to think about, however I think MAYBE phosphate saturation of the rocks and sand should probably be part of this conversation.

I haven't really tested this theory, but to me it seems to be one of the main missing factors in this dinos equation.

I have to say something with your theory about PO4.
In my case I didn't use dry rock/ sand, I used cycled one from my LFS, so at the beginning I had lots of algae / cyano because the rocks were leaching nitrates and phosphates, but after I added chaeto, a few months later I was able to remove those nitrates/phosphates and the rocks were not leaching anymore, so my point is, that not always old rock will leach nitrates/phosphates, in my case it did at the beginning but later the nitrates/phosphates that the rock had were depleted, so maybe back then nobody was using chaeto/macro algae.

 

[Marc2952]

Btw have any of you used a filter pad to put on the DT as you siphon the sandbed and bubblescrub? Ive heard that the dinos like to attach themselves to that since it has a rough surface when they are in the water column? Thats ome way to do manual removal although idk how much does it remove.

 

[Nicholas Dushynsky]

Btw have any of you used a filter pad to put on the DT as you siphon the sandbed and bubblescrub? Ive heard that the dinos like to attach themselves to that since it has a rough surface when they are in the water column? Thats ome way to do manual removal although idk how much does it remove.

That's something to try I suppose,mostpeople who use floss have plenty of it.

 

[DTz]

trying the 82f temp method. so far it seems to have made matters words. whole sand bed is covered with dinos now and certain parts of the rocks. am 3 days in ... not sure if i shud continue

 

[CDavmd]

Thought I would add my experience....for those interested in my saga see my build thread.

Quick Synopsis:

Reefer 425XL started with Marco rock and 10 pounds of ocean live rock from KPaquatics. This was not my first rodeo so I planned a very slow and methodical startup. Start up was March 2019. Four months with lights out and letting pod population explode. Then brought lights online slowly with dim blue and added first fish from my old system that had been running for close to 11-12 years.

During the initial startup I saw a minor diatom bloom which I confirmed under the microscope. A rare small cell dino was seen here and there but that is expected. What was curious were these golden brown round cells all over the sand granules which did not move. I privately corresponded with @taricha and shared my photos and video at that time and he was not sure but was cautiously optimistic that all was ok. The diatom bloom cleared and things continued to mature nicely.

A few weeks later first test corals (some from my old system that at one point had large cell Amphidinium after a NOPOX overdose). All went well and lights came on to normal schedule and tank allowed to mature. SPS added and things took off with great growth and no issues.

I seeded the tank monthly with copepods from algae barn and amphipods from florida pets. I also dosed phyto and fed fairly heavily. My nitrates ran 5-15 and phosphate .07-.15- despite this I never really developed much in terms of turf algae. I would have to scrape the glass every 4-5 days and that was it.

Fish were all quarantined and treated with copper meticulously yet despite all the care and precautions I noted my black cap which I had for over 5 years develop Ich in August. I lost that fish and others became sick. Removed all fish and went fallow for 80 days. During this time I ghost fed and check Nitrate and Phosphate weekly. No bottom out was ever recorded. During this time I added a 15watt Aqua UV unit to my sump manifold feeding back to the sump first chamber.

Corals were absolutely thriving and exploding. Sps had colored up beautifully and grown into small colonies. Fish were re-introduced slowly but just prior to bringing them in, I adjusted the aquascape and decided to add a touch more sand to some thin areas. BOOM! I noted 3 days later-golden brown areas on the new sand. I assumed diatoms but when I checked under the microscope it was both Ostreopsis and Small Cell Amphidinium!!! Ugh! I can only presume adding new sterile sand gave them real estate to exploit and off they went.

I added a small UV unit in the display and increased the flow from my return pump in order to get more into the UV unit in the sump. I siphoned and made sure nutrients were good. Things seemed to improve after a couple weeks but then I noticed some areas on the rock.

I then became aware of my first STN on my green slimer. A few days later another SPS started to STN. I looked at a piece of dead coral skeleton and it was filled with Ostreopsis. I changed the UV unit for a Pentair 25 watt and plumbed it from and to the display. STN continued and I lost most of my SPS

Around this time I also noted a bright green turf like growth in the rock crevices. I thought at first it was algae but it blew off and under the microscope it was green cyano!

At this point things were pretty bad off, attempts to frag and save SPS were moot. The Ostreopsis seemed to be improving with the UV but not the small cell Amphidinium. The cyano was taking off.

I tried the Dr. Tims recipe for dinos/ cyano.....things would look good for a few days then return. Multiple blackouts and same result. I tried the Elegant Corals method....same result. I ordered tritons new STN and Cyano treatment and used them....I did not notice any improvement at all.

I finally said screw it and hit the tank with Chemiclean. That got rid of the cyano and it has not come back... I also started dosing a variety of bacteria after that: Dr Tims ecobalance, refresh, waste away, Fritz Turbo, MB7, MB Clean.

Things seemed to improve and the surviving corals started to show growth. Yet there would still be some brown on the sand that would worsen over a weeks period and was confirmed small cell Amphidinium. I continued to weekly siphon and blow out rocks, and things would look good for 3-4 days and then they would come back.

Around this time I got busy at work due to Covid and just left the tank to itself. I fed and checked parameters when I could and dosed some silicates and that's it. Small cell persisted..... not as bad but still there and worsening after 7-10 days.

This brings me to the last couple weeks. I saw the reports of increasing temperature. I remembered that back in the day with MH my tank ran 82 all the time. So I increased the temp by .5 per day until I got to 82.5-83. Its been there for about a week and I have noticed improvement. Sand is clean white in the morning and by late afternoon just slightly discolored in some areas. Under blue light it is more obvious where the small cell is growing and I stir the sand daily especially in those areas. I have increased the flow of the UV unit and I'm hoping that stirring the sand will get more in suspension and into the UV unit. I've also programmed my Apex to run pumps at high for 5 minutes every three hours and get things stirred up. Lastly, I have been dosing peroxide every night 1ml/gallon and in the mornings I add bacteria and turn off the UV and skimmer for 6 hours. Then I stir the sand when the UV unit comes on and again peroxide that night.

I am seeing a significant improvement. No orange brown areas, instead just a slight darkening of the sand as the day progresses. I plan to leave my temps at 82...my corals are liking it and my fish have been more active and hungry. I'm going to continue the peroxide for a total of 10 days and then might just do another blackout for good measure.

I'll post my findings.....hopefully this multi pronged approach will finish them off.

UPDATE:

So I lost my midas Blenny...not sure if from the higher temps or not but I was running uptown 83.5 so I decided to narrow the temp and keep it in the 82.5 range.

I also noted that my nightly H202 dosing followed by Bacteria in the morning was resulting in a Nitrate depletion due to the Bacteria. Of note the ones most responsible for the Nitrate crash were MB7, Refresh ,waste away, and MB Clean. I did not see a major change when dosing Ecobalance. I had to actually dose Nitrates a few days to get then back above 3.

At day 7 I decided to stop the H202 and Bacteria other than Ecobalance and a few hours of UV and skimmer off.

I also continued to dose Silicates (Sponge Excel about 5 drops daily).

I stirred my sand every night and set my Apex to run pumps at full for 5 minutes every 3 hours. I also blew my rocks every couple days. I have to say the tank has never looked cleaner. My skimmer is pulling all sorts of gunk and I need to change my socks every couple days.

The sand was visibly better but with the continued dosing of silicates I started seeing brown golden dusty areas overtake the entire tank by midday and dissipate with lights off. I suspected diatoms and this was confirmed under the microscope. I am only seeing a stray Dino here and there....mainly the small cell are gone today under the microscope. I saw a couple large cell Amphidinium and 2-3 Ostreopsis but overall a significant diminution. Diatoms are everywhere as well as a variety of pods and other planktonic species. Also seeing some green fibrous tendrils on some of the sand grains which are not cyano and look like regular algae.

Overall things look better and my plan is leave my temperature here indefinitely, continue dosing silicates for another few months, maintain my Nitrate above 3 and phosphate around .1, and I will also keep the UV running for about a year.

Hopefully this will continue to be a success.

One last note....my surviving SPS are really taking off again.

 

[ScottB]

Btw have any of you used a filter pad to put on the DT as you siphon the sandbed and bubblescrub? Ive heard that the dinos like to attach themselves to that since it has a rough surface when they are in the water column? Thats ome way to do manual removal although idk how much does it remove.

Yup I used to run filter "flags" every day. Ostreopsis LOVE to cling to it. Rinse each evening.

 

[Nicholas Dushynsky]

Yup I used to run filter "flags" every day. Ostreopsis LOVE to cling to it. Rinse each evening.

Good to know, cheers. I might try it soon

 

[Nicholas Dushynsky]

On a side note of running the higher temp on my nano I seem to get salt creep around the lid, just curious if I should top off fresh water or a mixture of fresh and salt? I know I would need to test but didn't want to have to test salinity before topping up every time as I top off manually. I assume people get salt creep in sumps etc. Sorryfor the noob question.

 

[Marc2952]

This is 1 day after i siphoned the top layer of the dinos from my sand ( i have already taken out 50% of the sandbed), added a bunch of phyto and waste away aswell S feeding 2 times a day again. They havent popped up today maybe a tiny spot in the back. I have kept the phosphates above 1 again and turned the refugium off lets see how this continues. Btw if you want turn down the volume its my sister lol also if anybody wants a free pulsin xenia frag let me know mines growing too much and its starting to move towards my rocks from the sand.

 

[Justdrew]

So here's my temp map over the past week. Took it nice and slow. I have been dealing with Ostreopsis for a couple months now. Call it crazy but I can't even spot 1 patch of it today. Been steady at 82.0-82.3 since 5/19/2020. Besides the temperature raise I have maintained NO3 and PO4. I have dosed 2 drops microbacter 7 daily. Ran filter floss in a Hagen 802 changed daily or every 2 days. The temp change seems to be the factor as that was the only recent change. Thanks for the tip.

 

[drawman]

So here's my temp map over the past week. Took it nice and slow. I have been dealing with Ostreopsis for a couple months now. Call it crazy but I can't even spot 1 patch of it today. Been steady at 82.0-82.3 since 5/19/2020. Besides the temperature raise I have maintained NO3 and PO4. I have dosed 2 drops microbacter 7 daily. Ran filter floss in a Hagen 802 changed daily or every 2 days. The temp change seems to be the factor as that was the only recent change. Thanks for the tip.

How bad was it just before you raised your temp?

 

[Justdrew]

How bad was it just before you raised your temp?

I never had it real bad to start. Ever since I first saw it I blew it off a couple times a day. I kept all my SPS frags alive. I would get patches on the highest points of the rocks and misc ones here and there. I forgot to mention also a killing machine 24w UV.

 

[ScottB]

I never had it real bad to start. Ever since I first saw it I blew it off a couple times a day. I kept all my SPS frags alive. I would get patches on the highest points of the rocks and misc ones here and there. I forgot to mention also a killing machine 24w UV.

In the interests of science, maybe you could keep your elevated temp, turn off the UV, and stop dosing. Then we could get a better idea of what is limiting the dinos.

In the interests of your SPS, ignore the previous sentence.

 

[tkdman]

Just to give everyon an update on mine. I have the lage cell dinos alll over everything!, 90gallon total system. Increased temp to 82, no UV, dosed 1 cap or brightwell phosphate and nitrate daily, 4 caps of microbater7 daily (phosphates now read .01 and nitrates 1ppm) for about a week in the middle of the week dosage did a 3 day blackout.
Its starting to look much better finally can see my purple rock again and white sand.

 

[DTz]

Just to give everyon an update on mine. I have the lage cell dinos alll over everything!, 90gallon total system. Increased temp to 82, no UV, dosed 1 cap or brightwell phosphate and nitrate daily, 4 caps of microbater7 daily (phosphates now read .01 and nitrates 1ppm) for about a week in the middle of the week dosage did a 3 day blackout.
Its starting to look much better finally can see my purple rock again and white sand.

it might just b ur 3 day blackout thats doing the job making it look clean for the moment. curious if anyone beat dino just by raising temp. i know ive raised to 81.5 for 4 days now. and dino is still all over

 

[martinsp]

So here's my temp map over the past week. Took it nice and slow. I have been dealing with Ostreopsis for a couple months now. Call it crazy but I can't even spot 1 patch of it today. Been steady at 82.0-82.3 since 5/19/2020. Besides the temperature raise I have maintained NO3 and PO4. I have dosed 2 drops microbacter 7 daily. Ran filter floss in a Hagen 802 changed daily or every 2 days. The temp change seems to be the factor as that was the only recent change. Thanks for the tip.

How many days after the high temps, dinos started to retreat?

 

[Nicholas Dushynsky]

I'm 11 days in to the elevated temps and still have a little dinoflagellate stringy snot in a few places, its definitely not as bad as it has been a couple months ago.

 

[Marc2952]

I added fiji mud today lets see if its helps.

 

[tkdman]

it might just b ur 3 day blackout thats doing the job making it look clean for the moment. curious if anyone beat dino just by raising temp. i know ive raised to 81.5 for 4 days now. and dino is still all over

after the blackout dino's have been receding more and more every day blackout ended on monday of this week.