@mojjen...what brand salt do you use?Salinity: 1.025 Ca: 440 Kh: 8 Mg 1410, so nothing is off in that department
Elevating the N&P in my case is not killing off dinos so im looking for other ideas.
Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?
- Thread starter mcarroll
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Elevating the N&P in my case is not killing off dinos so im looking for other ideas.
ricardh
Community Member
Thank you very much for the identification Taricha
I don't know if this type of dinos are easy or no to fight, but we will not give up !!
I have started reading all this thread, I've not finished reading it all, but it is very interesting, and seeing that there are people who manage to overcome them, gives hope.
My tank has the following characteristics:
- Tank: 19 Us Gallon
- Sump: 9 Gallon
- SandBed: Yes
- Refuge of chaetomorpha
- Siporax
- Photoperiod: 12h Led
- Dry Rock
- Time: 5 months old
Current Test Readings:
- N: 0
- P: 0
- Alk: 7
- Magnesium: 1335
- Calcium: 370
What have I done so far?
1 - For the moment I've been doing a dirty war for a week:
- Feeding frozen artemia
- Adding 0.1 ppm of KH2PO4 daily
- Adding 10 ppm of KNO3 daily
2- I stopped my skimmer
3 - I took part of the Siporax I had in the sump, but not everything.
- Feeding frozen artemia
- Adding 0.1 ppm of KH2PO4 daily
- Adding 10 ppm of KNO3 daily
2- I stopped my skimmer
3 - I took part of the Siporax I had in the sump, but not everything.
What happened ?
0- N and P are still zero
1 - Cyanobacteria begins to appear, growing in places where before there were dinos
2 - The parts where the cyanobacteria has not appeared, it seems that the dinos have become even stronger.
3- The funny thing is that my corals are better than ever, I only have dinos in the sand bed, not in the rocks, but I have the colors and growth like I had never seen !!
What do I think I will do in the next few days?1 - Cyanobacteria begins to appear, growing in places where before there were dinos
2 - The parts where the cyanobacteria has not appeared, it seems that the dinos have become even stronger.
3- The funny thing is that my corals are better than ever, I only have dinos in the sand bed, not in the rocks, but I have the colors and growth like I had never seen !!
1- Follow with the routines of feeding and addition of N and P.
2- Buy copepods in great quantity, to create competence.
3- Add Bacteria (Special Blend) to generate competence, although I don't know if this is contradictory to the fact of adding N at the same time.
4- Try to raise the KH to have a higher PH.
5- Buy a UV lamp
6- Buy a 10 micron sock, and siphon at night.
7- I have doubts about whether or not to do a BlackOut for 72 hours or not, or maybe reduce the photoperiod.
It's the first time i have dinos on my tank, I don't know if you think I'm doing it right or not, any advice will be welcome.
I want to update in this thread the status of my tank so that it can serve future victims of the same dinos that is serving me.
Excuse me, but English is not my mother tongue.
Thank you very much and greetings !!!
m0jjen
Well-Known Member
1. I would keep the skimmer on at all time since it aeritate the water providing it with oxygen and also contribute to higher PH.
2. Just keep KH stable at 8~, no need to raise it id say
3. Litterly the only thing i did was dose alot of NO3 and PO4 UNTIL i got a consistant reading of 10 ppm no3 and 0.1 po4, so just keep dosing until you get there. Cyano and other algae will come, its not a question if, but when.
4. Manual removal is always nice. I used a 6 mm hose to siphon just the dino and minimal water into a sock in the sump to re-use the water
5. Corals are happy since dino can inhibit corals natural zooxanthells in different ways, when you add more nutrients than the dino can handle (?) the excess nutrients becomes more available to algae and corals.
6. I tried special blend and it made things alot worse for me. Most likely due to it containing something that the dino can use.
This is just anecdotal thought from me and should not be concidered facts. My dino was Ostreopsis ovata so it may be different
OP
OP
mcarroll
10K Club member
Feeding is good, but it's not the same as dosing N and P under our model on this thread. In a nutshell, that's because feeding (which sort of implies a Redfield-like ratio of nutrients) ultimately raises all nutrients in the system.
Doing that under bloom conditions really only feeds the bacteria that are feeding the dino bloom and does nothing to change tank conditions.
But read on – you'll like this next part a little better!
Inoculate Your Tank
Don't forget to consider inoculating your tank with some detritus, dirty sand or rock pieces from a healthy system if you can. If your LFS sells live rock, try to get a scoop of muck from that system.....I'd be willing to pay by the pound as if it was live sand, and get some water in the bag too!
Some Science
I don't have this article (link below) on my blog yet. Some scientists proposed this diagram as a model on the effect of the N : P ratio, water temp, and hydrodynamic conditions on a bloom of Ostreopsis from the Adriadic Sea.
Fig. 8. Conceptual model of the effect of N
ratio, water temperature and hydrodynamic conditions on both bloom onset and maintenance of Ostreopsis cf. ovata. Green (lighter) and red (darker) arrows symbolize positive and negative effect, respectively. Dotted line represents a slight effect relative to solid line.(BTW, the red arrow on the right side of the diagram is clipped off of the original photo for some reason...it connects "Hydro. conditions" with "Water temp.")
Note: It's important to remember they're talking about the ocean in that diagram, where by comparison with aquarium standards, flow (the "hydrodynamic condition") in the ocean is....
- much much stronger
- especially during storms and other localized chaotic episodes
- more laminar
- responsible for the "scrubbing" or cleaning effects of a water change
- responsible for raising and lowering nutrient, salinity and temperature levels.
More stagnant seas do have worse, more-persistent Ostreopsis blooms.....but as we're seeing that's a simple statement, but not a simple conclusion.
Our tanks that have the most chaotic flow almost always also have the weakest flow...so it's hard for me to judge whether increased chaotic flow would be more effective. (Does anyone with Tunze Stream or Nanostream pumps have a dino outbreak??? I'm gonna have to think....off-hand nobody comes to mind.) But even the tanks with the strongest flow can't hope to emulate all of the effects of flow in the ocean just with pumps. That's why emulated storm surges, whether automatically or manually induced, can be important to emulate. And why nutrient additions and the other supporting solutions we apply (see the rest of this thread!) can make so much sense.
So even this diagram is only a "proposed model" – it's not a written solution to Ostreopsis blooms by any stretch. But let's dig in and see what that diagram does tell us...
A Walk Through The Ostreopsis Diagram
Beginning at the bottom "Hydrodynamic conditions" box of the diagram I'll make some comments as we go...
- Blasting the rocks and sand and "restoring nutrients" with N and P dosing roughly corresponds with "High" hydrodynamic conditions and the green arrow pointing to the N : P Ratio box. (Notice there's a red line too though and keep reading.)
As you can see from that N : P Ratio box...
- Keeping nutrients elevated, in particular nitrogen (N : P greater than Redfield) has a strong negative effect on bloom onset.....a "good preventative" but "weak cure" is how I'd say it.
- Normal N : P levels (≈Redfield) are not beneficial in this scenario.....there is a strong positive effect for Ostreopsis blooms to start and to continue to bloom under this condition.
- In fact, elevated N : P levels ("raised nutrients") are shown to have only a weakly negative effect on an Ostreopsis bloom. It may only be the first trigger that has to be tripped before the bloom will stop.
- Ironically, however, once a bloom has started, lower N : P ratios is the first thing on the diagram that has a strong negative effect on an existing bloom.
- Unless you can lower your tank temperature to <68ºF, then lowering the N : P ratio (less than Redfield) may as well be the only thing on the diagram that has a strong negative effect on a bloom.
- If you can keep your tank temperature under 77ºF then temperature will not contribute to a bloom starting. (<77ºF does not appear to affect a bloom that is already happening.)
- It's important to manage reducing the N : P ratio closely, as this same condition (N : P < Redfield) also has a strong positive effect on bloom start. The opposite of what you want, so crashing N and P to zero with a vodka+GFO blitz is not the idea.
If you have already brought up your nutrients to recommended levels (which are > Redfield) then based on the diagram, applying macro algae or an ATS seems like it would be the way to go. Either option should burn through the availble N quickly without putting a severe enough cramp on either N or P to harm the rest of the tank.
I would probably continue the same maintenance dose you had been putting in the tank to boost N and P.
But stop managing the ppm's...let them fall as the algae grows.
We hope that this triggers the dino's to revert back to photosynthesis and consuming nothing but dissolved nutrients....therefore stopping the blooming behavior and the toxin formation. Once things are stabilized without the dino's around, then wean the tank off of N and P dosing slowly.
Reference:
A conceptual model of annual Ostreopsis cf. ovata blooms in the northern Adriatic Sea based on the synergic effects of hydrodynamics, temperature, and the N : P ratio of water column nutrients - Scientific Figure on ResearchGate. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...re_and_the_NP_ratio_of_water_column_nutrients
@taricha
Last edited:
StrangeDejavu
Active Member
So I dosed N and P a couple of times, maintaining it at exactly 5 ppm nitrate and 0.25 ppm phosphate. I am currently dealing with Coolia sp. which was starting to look better and better with no water changes/dirty method but it just never quite went away. Started dosing nitrate and phosphate and it actually made it worse. The light dusting of dinos became thick brown sheets in the sand. I started to get hair algae but didn't seem to do anything for the dinos.
My 1.5 year fight is over, the dinos won. I was in Irma's path and had to evacuate to Georgia over the weekend. I came home last night to a 90°F reef, dinos and cyano covering literally everything including the glass and back wall. Disappointed I never got to enjoy reefing like others as my fight started the week my cycle finished and concludes once I tear everything down and sell it. I will have the last laugh though as I plan to pour a cup of bleach in the tank once all life is removed and let it circulate while I laugh maniacally.
Good luck to those still fighting. I had more fight left in me but Irma really threw a wrench in things.
My 1.5 year fight is over, the dinos won. I was in Irma's path and had to evacuate to Georgia over the weekend. I came home last night to a 90°F reef, dinos and cyano covering literally everything including the glass and back wall. Disappointed I never got to enjoy reefing like others as my fight started the week my cycle finished and concludes once I tear everything down and sell it. I will have the last laugh though as I plan to pour a cup of bleach in the tank once all life is removed and let it circulate while I laugh maniacally.
Good luck to those still fighting. I had more fight left in me but Irma really threw a wrench in things.
Scubabum
Well-Known Member
Just wanted to say THANK YOU to Mcarroll for posting this info and helping me through a few PM's. I've been battling Dino for nearly 2 months. Been dosing Nitrate and Phosphate and struggling to keep numbers elevated but have managed to do so. I can say for the last two days my tank has been 99.9% Dino Free. For those still struggling, don't give up. Thanks again.
Scubabeth
Active Member
So sorry, @StrangeDejavu! Your entire situation was a rough one for sure! Maybe in the future you can try reefing again....it really is a great hobby when dinos (or other issues) are not sucking the joy out of it. All the best to you!
Last night I added 5 lbs of GARF Grunge to the display and 5 lbs to the refugium in an effort to help inoculate the system and bring in some more diversity. I've been super diligent about QT'ing things as they enter my system, yet with this I just dumped it in. It's a bit of a risk as I could be introducing some undesirables (ich, etc) but at this point I'm willing to take that risk.
I'm continuing to dose both KNO3 (weekly, as needed), PO4 (daily) and I've been aerating the sand bed to try and keep the dinos suspended to be pulled out by the skimmer.
I've also pulled my fuge lighting back to 6 hours a night rather than the 13 hours to try and alleviate some of the nutrient usage in the fuge. I think that's a good move in this case although my nightly pH swing has been dropping a little lower but only to 7.8-ish at it's lowest and still peaking at 8.2-ish.
Fingers crossed these couple of changes help to finally make a difference.
I'm continuing to dose both KNO3 (weekly, as needed), PO4 (daily) and I've been aerating the sand bed to try and keep the dinos suspended to be pulled out by the skimmer.
I've also pulled my fuge lighting back to 6 hours a night rather than the 13 hours to try and alleviate some of the nutrient usage in the fuge. I think that's a good move in this case although my nightly pH swing has been dropping a little lower but only to 7.8-ish at it's lowest and still peaking at 8.2-ish.
Fingers crossed these couple of changes help to finally make a difference.
Yikes. I'm sorry to hear that. Best wishes.
tsav87
Well-Known Member
Last night I added 5 lbs of GARF Grunge to the display and 5 lbs to the refugium in an effort to help inoculate the system and bring in some more diversity. I've been super diligent about QT'ing things as they enter my system, yet with this I just dumped it in. It's a bit of a risk as I could be introducing some undesirables (ich, etc) but at this point I'm willing to take that risk.
I'm continuing to dose both KNO3 (weekly, as needed), PO4 (daily) and I've been aerating the sand bed to try and keep the dinos suspended to be pulled out by the skimmer.
I've also pulled my fuge lighting back to 6 hours a night rather than the 13 hours to try and alleviate some of the nutrient usage in the fuge. I think that's a good move in this case although my nightly pH swing has been dropping a little lower but only to 7.8-ish at it's lowest and still peaking at 8.2-ish.
Fingers crossed these couple of changes help to finally make a difference.
Intesting. That seems like a solid way to seed a new tank. Thanks for sharing!
With all the steps I've been taking to solve this outbreak I'm not sure I'll be able to attribute any success to adding the grunge, but I will continue to update with my successes or failures. As long as it didn't add any pathogens to the tank I'm sure the grunge will only add to the success of my system.
Thanks, we're all here to lift each other up!
XNavyDiver
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What a coincidence, I put in GARF Grunge last night also! I put all of mine in the sump.Last night I added 5 lbs of GARF Grunge to the display and 5 lbs to the refugium in an effort to help inoculate the system and bring in some more diversity. I've been super diligent about QT'ing things as they enter my system, yet with this I just dumped it in. It's a bit of a risk as I could be introducing some undesirables (ich, etc) but at this point I'm willing to take that risk.
I'm continuing to dose both KNO3 (weekly, as needed), PO4 (daily) and I've been aerating the sand bed to try and keep the dinos suspended to be pulled out by the skimmer.
I've also pulled my fuge lighting back to 6 hours a night rather than the 13 hours to try and alleviate some of the nutrient usage in the fuge. I think that's a good move in this case although my nightly pH swing has been dropping a little lower but only to 7.8-ish at it's lowest and still peaking at 8.2-ish.
Fingers crossed these couple of changes help to finally make a difference.
Let us know what sort of benefits you notice. I'm excited to see all the new critters.
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