Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[reeferfoxx]

Sorry they came back – do you know what happened?

Yes. Its the same nutrient consuming crap I had before. It killed off 70% of my clean up crew the first time.

What happened was after the defeat, hair algae and cyano took over. I decided to get another turbo snail and 6 hermits. The hermits killed 2 of 3 remaining cerith snails and the turbo lasted 2 weeks before dying. Hair algae was growing vigorously. I tried several attempts to manual toothbrush away the algae. All the while dosing vibrant. Vibrant lasted maybe 3 weeks. It helped but scares me at the same time, so I stopped. Hair algae kept going and going. PO4 was quickly going down. But hair algae was quickly growing back and so was cyno. So I took some advice and started running a small amount of gfo and carbon. It ran for 4 days until I notice that PO4 rapidly dropped. I thought it was strange though, because I literally used 2 teaspoons of GFO in a mesh bag. Anyway, PO4 quickly went from 0.013 to 0.001 or 1 ppb. I tested nitrates last night and they read 0.20 down from 3.

This tank is so out of wack. The nutrients will never stabilize without me dosing them and honestly, that concept is ridiculous. Its good for a fix, but not good for long term.

 

[Fr4nkthet4nk]

I did this video. I hope will help someone. I was having this problem for many month.

 

[Eddie Rogers]

think im going to give Vibrant a try, if that doesn't work im going to reboot the tank.

@Fr4nkthet4nk did you turn off the UV while dosing vibrant?

 

[taricha]

@taricha...what was your remedy for eradicating ostropsis? are you running a barebottom system now?

Nope. Never will. My favorite livestock need the sand. Just did elevated dosed P and N. And made sure my macros always had what they need to grow.
Let my tank herbivores and critters reproduce to scale up to the new micro algae growth. I export macro (chaeto) by hand.
Stopped adding all the things that help dinos (vitamins, organics, aminos, carbon, phyto, etc)
I never even ran UV on my main tank, but I strongly recommend it. I've run it on smaller tanks and it's my favorite selective dino cell killing. (Except large cell amphidinium)

My tank today.

 

[scardall]

...to target parasites – armored dino's if they can tell you that specifically – yes, you should. You have to ask the manufacturer for the correct flow rate.



Any carbon dosing going on?

How are you testing Po4?



Sorry they came back – do you know what happened?

You need a scope to end the mystery of what's in the tank: Selecting a microscope ($12)



This is good news!!!



'scope!



Can't remember, are you already using UV? Fresh bulb and verified good setup?



Good instinct....reboots may work even less well than bleach or metronidazole. You might already have seen @taricha post!



+1



Wrong sterols unfortunately.

Yes I'm carbon dosing with NO3PO4-X and I'm measuring PO4 with Hanna LR PO4 tester.

 

[mcarroll]

Here's me and frank (and 1000 others) beginning with Post #3273 – April Fools Day post, but I wasn't kidding around! – from "the main dino thread" I linked in the opening post of this thread....so I guess I may have helped.

I was having this problem for many month.

If anyone else is like me and has fairly little time for video, here's Frank's thread:
Probably It was just Luck but I don't have more Dinoflagellates

The "problem" is that there's still a giant gap in understanding with a solution like that......which reminds me of a couple of good quotes....(one's a repeat)

Have you heard the phrase "Even a stopped clock is right twice a day."? (No idea who said it originally.)

"Know your tank! And know your algae! Only knowing one won't do it." --Sun Tzu's Guide To Algae Control

(I had no idea that Sun Tzu kept a tank.)

In essence, that means it's always possible to get lucky.

That's fine when it works out.

Unfortunatly, you have some folks using similar methods and ending up with apparently unsalvageable tanks that will grow nothing but dino's. At best, most folks have dino's return once treatment stops.

So on this thread we're attempting to be science-based in order to find a better fix.

In Sun Tzu's terms, we want to "know the tank AND know the algae".

To me that means knowing how to set up a thriving, balanced tank in the old-school manner AND understanding the role of nutrients and algae in general.

On the tank side, that simply means relying less on system hacks and moving more slowly through every phase of the tanks development.

On the algae side, we've figured out some of the pieces of the puzzle as there are a few common dino types that will give up quickly and easily. But there are other types of dinos (like ostreopsis) and combinations of microbes that require more understanding from us....we're having some success, but still figuring out all the pieces on those.

BTW, I'm trying to update the main page to make it easier to find discussions and ID's in this thread for specific dino types.

 

[Velcro]

@mcarroll just blew off the rocks and found a little hair algea.

I have some of those... they don't seem to reproduce at any appreciable rate... my aiptasia on the other hand................

 

[Cscultho]

Here's me and frank (and 1000 others) beginning with Post #3273 – April Fools Day post, but I wasn't kidding around! – from "the main dino thread" I linked in the opening post of this thread....so I guess I may have helped.



If anyone else is like me and has fairly little time for video, here's Frank's thread:
Probably It was just Luck but I don't have more Dinoflagellates

The "problem" is that there's still a giant gap in understanding with a solution like that......which reminds me of a couple of good quotes....(one's a repeat)

Have you heard the phrase "Even a stopped clock is right twice a day."? (No idea who said it originally.)

"Know your tank! And know your algae! Only knowing one won't do it." --Sun Tzu's Guide To Algae Control

(I had no idea that Sun Tzu kept a tank.)

In essence, that means it's always possible to get lucky.

That's fine when it works out.

Unfortunatly, you have some folks using similar methods and ending up with apparently unsalvageable tanks that will grow nothing but dino's. At best, most folks have dino's return once treatment stops.

So on this thread we're attempting to be science-based in order to find a better fix.

In Sun Tzu's terms, we want to "know the tank AND know the algae".

To me that means knowing how to set up a thriving, balanced tank in the old-school manner AND understanding the role of nutrients and algae in general.

On the tank side, that simply means relying less on system hacks and moving more slowly through every phase of the tanks development.

On the algae side, we've figured out some of the pieces of the puzzle as there are a few common dino types that will give up quickly and easily. But there are other types of dinos (like ostreopsis) and combinations of microbes that require more understanding from us....we're having some success, but still figuring out all the pieces on those.

BTW, I'm trying to update the main page to make it easier to find discussions and ID's in this thread for specific dino types.

Keep up your hard work and dedication @mcarroll it is appreciated. Hopefully we will one day be able to find a cure. Until then we will continue to battle....

 

[Beuchat]

If one hopes to kill organisms with ozone directly, you will need to use it in a way much stronger than reefers normally do. Normal ozone usage does not raise the oxidants high enough for long enough to kill much in the water. You would typically need a dedicated ozone reactor for that. Otherwise you risk substantial toxicity to other aquarium inhabitants (although in desperation, that may not be the critical factor).

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 1: Chemistry and Biochemistry by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/rhf/index.php

Reducing Bacteria When Using Ozone

Bacteria and other organisms suspended in water can be killed by adequate exposure to ozone. That process is widely used to disinfect drinking water and wastewater in a variety of applications. The doses and exposures of ozone required for disinfection, however, are quite high. They are higher than are used in reef aquarium applications, where typical doses of ozone range up to about 0.3 ppm in typical contact chambers, and last for only a few seconds. Consequently, aquarists must be careful when translating disinfection literature to reef aquarium effects.

In a recent study of a recirculating seawater system,35 the dosing of 0.52 ppm of ozone was tested for its ability to decrease the system's bacterial load. That dose is similar to a 300 mg/hr ozone unit applied to a typical small skimmer flow rate of 150 gallons per hour (568 L/h). In this experiment, the levels of suspended bacteria (both Vibrio and coliform) were analyzed in a variety of locations (intake, pre-ozone, post-ozone, pre-tank, and post-tank). In no case was there a statistically significant reduction in bacteria. Even the addition of a venturi injector to the contact chamber did not adequately help (although it trended toward fewer bacteria, the result was not statistically significant). For comparison purposes, at higher ozone concentrations and contact times (5.3 ppm ozone for 240 minutes), Vibrio vulnificus is easily killed, with fewer than one in a hundred million of the initial bacteria remaining.36

How much ozone, and for how long, is required to kill suspended organisms in seawater? In one study of a suspended dinoflagellate algae (Amphidinium sp. isolated from Australia's Great Barrier Reef), it was found that 5-11 ppm ozone for six hours of exposure was required to kill 99.99% of the organisms.37 While that kill rate is impressive, that exposure is far higher than is ever achieved in a reef aquarium application. Lower doses and shorter contact times had smaller effects. A dose of 2 ppm and a short contact time (with the time not stated in the paper) showed a reduction in bacteria of abut 98% (which is still quite significant, but would not be referred to as disinfection).

Similar results were found for the spores of the bacterium Bacillus subtilis.38 In this case, doses of 14 ppm ozone for 24 hours were required to kill 99.99 percent of the spores. In another study 99.9% of fecal coliforms, fecal streptococci and total coliforms were killed with 10 ppm ozone and a contact time of 10 minutes.39 The exposure of Vibrio species and Fusarium solani (bacteria that are pathogenic to shrimp) to 3 ppm ozone for five minutes killed 99.9% of the bacteria.40 Water from a seawater swimming pool was effectively sterilized using 0.5-1.0 ppm ozone in a contact tower.41

The data for the disinfection of freshwater systems are much more extensive, and so include more data at lower contact times and concentrations. In one experiment at a Rainbow trout hatchery, the addition of 1-1.3 ppm of ozone with a contact time of 35 seconds reduced heterotrophic bacteria in the aquarium water itself by about 40-90%.42

Does the ozone used in a typical reef aquarium application reduce bacteria? Maybe, but certainly not to the extent required for disinfection. Still, a reduction of 50% of the living bacteria could have significant effects. The above study in the trout hatchery showed that the use of ozone at several times the typical reef aquarium rate and for about five to ten times the typical contact time results in such a drop. While the data are unavailable, I expect that the bacteria in the water exiting a normal reef aquarium's ozone application are not decreased by as much as 50%.

It seem reasonable to conclude from such literature studies that most bacteria that enter the ozone reaction chamber in a typical reef aquarium application will not be killed by ozone or its byproducts. If killing bacteria in the water column is a goal, then a UV (ultraviolet) sterilizer may be more useful.

Reducing Other Pathogens When Using Ozone

There has been extensive analysis of the amount of ozone needed to kill the human pathogen Cryptosporidia parvum in freshwater. Most such studies are looking for significant disinfection, but some data points show the effects at lower doses and contact times, and some researchers have developed models that suggest the amount of killing at any dose/time combination.43 For example, at 22° C approximately 63% of the organisms would be expected to be killed at 1 ppm ozone with a contact time of one minute. The contact times and concentrations are inversely related, so at a contact time of six seconds, the required dose to kill 63% is on the order of 10 ppm ozone. At 0.3 ppm ozone and a six second contact time, typical for the high end of reef ozone applications, less than 5% of the organisms would be expected to be killed.

Many viruses are much easier to inactivate with ozone than are other pathogens.44 Enteric adenovirus, for example, is inactivated to the extent of 99.8% after exposure to 0.5 ppm for 15 seconds.44 Feline calicivirus is inactivated to the extent of 98.6% after exposure to 0.06 ppm for 15 seconds.44 Poliovirus type 1 was inactivated to 99% within 30 seconds of contact time at 0.15 ppm ozone.45 Hepatitis A virus was inactivated to the extent of 99.999% within one minute at 1 ppm ozone.46 Norwalk virus was inactivated by 99.9% in 10 seconds of contact at 0.37 ppm ozone.47 Adenovirus type 2 was inactivated by 99.99% by 0.2 ppm ozone with a contact time of about one minute.48

The eggs of a pathogenic helminth (Ascaris suum) were killed to the extent of 90% by exposure to 3.5-4.7 ppm ozone for one hour. One additional hour of exposure killed the remainder.49

It seems reasonable to conclude from such literature studies that many viruses that enter the ozone reaction chamber in a typical reef aquarium application may be killed by ozone or its byproducts. Larger pathogens, however, are likely much more resistant to ozone, and are unlikely to be killed. For such ends, a UV sterilizer may be more useful, but still may not be completely effective.

Hi Randy thanks for all the information. I had read it before; I am a complete enthusiast of your articles. I have learnt a lot with your contributions to the hobby

I have experienced myself three times that ozone applied through a protein skimmer kills dinoflagellates

These photos are from my previous tank, it was completely covered with Prorocentrum lima:

At that time I did not know anything about dinoflagellates in the reef aquarium. The blooms happened after the addition of calcium gluconate in order to increase coralline algae grow (I read this in an Anthony Calfo´s Book). I was impatient and increased the daily dose while my phosphates and nitrates were close to zero. Then the bloom was incredibly strong

I tried many things (like increasing PH with Kalkwasser and so on) but nothing seemed to work. It was very frustrating for me and I started to investigate

I contacted with Dr. Esther Garcés and Dr. Mona Hoppenraph, both of them are worldwide experts involved in the investigation of toxic phytoplankton. Please find below some information about their profiles:

http://pbl.icm.csic.es/es/content/ip-dra-esther-garcés

http://www.academia-net.org/profil/pd-dr-mona-hoppenrath/1174478

I sent a sample of my dinos and Esther identified them as Prorocentrum lima. She isolated the dino and placed into a culture recipient. The Prorocentrum was able to survive during weeks without any nutrient present into the culture media, using only the light as an energy source

We were considering the possibility of using another microorganism to outcompete with the dino in the aquarium

Parvilucifera infectans is a marine alveolate wich parasites several species of dinoflagellates and specifically Prorocentrum. I tried to find a strain of Parvilucifera in any of the Spanish and foreign algae banks without success. Esther had a strain of Parvilucifera Sinerae in her laboratory and inoculated it into the Prorocentrum culture

After several weeks the dino was able to avoid the infection and continued living without any nutrient addition

I was in contact with other hobbits and we reached the following conclusions:


- Dinos are always present in nearly all of aquariums with live rock. Either in "normal" shape or clogged in a cyst

- The scenario with more probabilities for the dinos to start a bloom is when nitrate and phosphate are close to zero and there is a strong carbon dosing

- The next more probable situation for a dinos outbreak is an abrupt reduction in the phosphate concentration (for example, adding a GFO reactor with strong flow with more than needed media over fluidized)

- The microbial diversity in the aquarium is very important to maintain a competition environment for the dino not to take advantage

- When nutrients are very close to zero, the dinos "activate” because the other competitors microorganism, which use phosphate and nitrate for their metabolic processes do not have resources

- An effective but time consuming protocol to reduce the dino population in a reef tank is:

· Stop any water change
· Stop any addition of carbon or any commercial product like aminoacids, etc
· Decrease light intensity and photoperiod
· Decrease circulating pumps flow as much as possible except the return pump
· Increase phosphate concentration very slowly and nitrate according to Redfield ratio
· Dose phytoplankton daily in order to slowly increase phosphate and feed another micro fauna which compete or predate over the dino (for example Oxyrrhis Marina)

- An effective and quick remedy to kill pathogen dinoflagellates is to inject ozone into the tank with a protein skimmer and a redox controller. Start very carefully with a small dose and increase a maximum of 10 mv per day. Redox is an indirect way to estimate the concentration of the TRO that are generated into the tank water when using ozone. This TRO are toxic for dinoflagellates and destroy them. In several days after the ozone administration no rest of dinos are found in the tank

These are pictures two months after the ozone treatment. Sorry but I do not find the photos just after the bloom eradication

These are photos of my current tank after 5 months of installation. The brown staff in the sand is patches of Ostreopsis Ovata

These are photos of the dinos from a collected sample of the sand

These are some pictures of the sand after de ozone treatment, as you can see there is still a brown stuff over the sand and over the glass

Taking samples and analyzing resulted in only diatom algae:

And this are grains of that sand showing diatom algae but no rest of ostreopsis

It is not only my own experience but several fellow aquarist I know have killed their dinos quickly and safelly using ozone. So TROs in the water obiously kill dinos and no not kill other beneficial microrganism like the nytrogen cycle bacteria and so on , because I have monitored amonia and no detectable levels are present after ozonation process (and in the case it would have been it would have transformed to nitrite and nitrate due to the ozone treatment, I guess)

I see people fighting with dinos during months and it only takes several days to kill them

I hope this information help those frustated aquarist (as I was) with dinoflagellates problems

BR

 

[Eddie Rogers]

@Beuchat

Can you explain ozone, I’m new to the hobby and not sure what it is

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Beuchat

Can you explain ozone, I’m new to the hobby and not sure what it is

Ozone, O3, is a highly oxidizing form of oxygen that is added to either a special reactor or sometimes a skimmer where it reacts with organic materials. It quickly makes them less yellow, and can slowly break them down. It can also react with organism tissues, which is why it isn't preferred to add to a skimmer or other way that doesn't pass the effluent over GAC (which breaks the ozone down).

These have a ton more:

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 1: Chemistry and Biochemistry by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/rhf/index.php

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 2: Equipment and Safety by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/rhf/index.php

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 3: Changes in a Reef Aquarium upon Initiating Ozone by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-05/rhf/index.php

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi Randy thanks for all the information. I had read it before; I am a complete enthusiast of your articles. I have learnt a lot with your contributions to the hobby

I have experienced myself three times that ozone applied through a protein skimmer kills dinoflagellates

Thanks.

I do not doubt you can kill dinos, but I think it is not dissimilar to dosing bleach to kill dinos (in fact, the active chemicals may be largely the same).

Either might be a decent choice in desperation, but I would not assume it is harmless to everything else in the tank.

What is the likelihood that dinos are the easiest to kill organism in an entire reef system?

That said, the other things that are harmed may be not that important to reefers who already have a tank covered in dinos and may be losing corals and such that are covered.

 

[taricha]

Very nice post. Agree on most things.
This piece however seems to go against what most people experience.

Dose phytoplankton daily in order to slowly increase phosphate and feed another micro fauna which compete or predate over the dino (for example Oxyrrhis Marina)

Dosing phyto rather encourages dino growth for most people. Nor does it seem to grow dino predators directly. For instance, live phyto is in the range of 5 microns, oxyrrhis marina is 15-30 microns, and the ostreopsis and prorocentrum and large cell amphidinium are all in the 50+ micron ballpark. oxyrris marina is a good predator of amphidinium carterae (small cell amphidinium) but just can't do anything with most of our trouble dinos.

A question on the main point. Do we know how the mechanism of Ozone might differ from that of Peroxide? H2O2 for some people was very successful, but others have used in very large doses without success.
Your observation that with dinos gone diatoms remain, seems to confirm that direct oxidation is the mechanism. Diatoms are the most resistance class of microalgae to oxidizing. cyano is the most sensitive. Dinos vary by type but fall in between.

Chemical mechanism of how this ozone would work when peroxide doesn't is a mystery to me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Chemical mechanism of how this ozone would work when peroxide doesn't is a mystery to me.

Ozone will quickly break down to form other oxidants in seawater, such as hypobromite (BrO-), which are toxins. Bleach does that as well. The papers I have seen suggest that hydrogen peroxide is not a strong enough oxidant to convert bromide to hypobromite (or at least, it doesn't form).

 

[Derek Clifford]

Can anyone help to ID this. Fighting them about 6 months now.
Now, aprox 300x mag


4 months ago




grows mainly on the sand. For a couple of months I ran with reduced lighting and it helped. But corals suffered
Just tried 2 weeks with a 5w UV, but dont think it had much impact.
Phosphates less than 0.01. silicates 400ug/l. nitrates around 20ppm.

 

[mcarroll]

The blooms happened after the addition of calcium gluconate

Are you responsible for the shortage (re)reported here: 3 Society and culture
(not serious....just an excuse to link Wikipedia's Calcium Glucanate page! )

What is the likelihood that dinos are the easiest to kill organism in an entire reef system?

Thank you!!

That's the most frequently unasked question in all of dino treatment-land.

 

[taricha]

Can anyone help to ID this.
grows mainly on the sand. For a couple of months I ran with reduced lighting and it helped. But corals suffered
Just tried 2 weeks with a 5w UV, but dont think it had much impact.
Phosphates less than 0.01. silicates 400ug/l. nitrates around 20ppm.

I'd say prorocentrum.
What size is your tank? People report success with uv at 1 watt for every 2 to 3 gallons or stronger. Seen people with 5 gallons per watt or weaker say it didn't work.
Address your P with dosing as recommended in the thread.

 

[landlubber]

i am running a 36w jebao uv specifically to deal with my dinos (also prorocentrum) and it has made absolutely no difference unfortunately. i'm starting to get desperate after dealing with these f0r a year now and little to no improvement from the standard no water changes, nutrients at 10ppm and .10ppm techniques for the past couple of months.
hope is fading faster than my dinos are

 

[taricha]

"What is the End Game?" (from convo with @mcarroll)
Dino-X, bleach, ozone, peroxide, vibrant, metro etc, are all interesting interventions. Some need exploring. I'm not sure this thread is the place for exploring all of them. The main dino thread discusses a lot of them in 4500+ posts (I'm particularly interested in Dino-X vs amphidinium, since that one is harder to remove from sandbed)

Let me try to nudge this thread somewhat closer to topic.

Thesis of this thread is simplicity and patience.
ID your dinos.
Stop additions that fuel dinos.
Dose simple inorganic P & N (and anything else missing) to alleviate nutrient starvation and imbalance. For a time the tank will consume (surprisingly) large amounts of P & N with little visible change. In this time the dinos will grow and multiply with the additional nutrients, but other stuff should too, and eventually outpace dinos.
Selectively kill/remove dino cells. Use activated carbon to reduce toxins.
Soon other organisms should grow, gain a foothold and provide stability that once established will help to keep dinos at bay. Also the system consumption of P & N should return to sane levels as the effects of the dino bloom are processed out biologically.
So what then? what's the End Game?
Haven't really talked about it much here because the thread is mostly about trying to get people past the outbreak phase.
If you've reduced dinos to invisible and are now growing lots of algae that you didn't really want, what happens next?
How much algae should we be growing? This paper lays out the large daily algae production in a reef,

In a review of carbon and energy flux in stony corals, ...concluded that the [production] of the coral/ dinoflagellate symbiosis...was typically between 2.0–2.6 g C/m^2 per day .... Carpenter... had earlier determined that reef algal turfs were in about the same range, perhaps a little higher at 2.3–3.3 g C /m^2 per day.

Notice that in a reef that looks coral dominated and algae free, algae production is higher than coral.
Algae generally have Carbon as ~25% of dry weight, so this 3 g of C is 12 g total dry weight per square meter. algae can be anywhere from 70-90%+ water, so this 12g dry weight would be ballpark 50 or 60 grams a day fresh weight of algae in 1 square meter (or two 55gal tanks.)
So if your 55gallon tank grew 30 grams of algae a day every day, would you freak out? Probably so!
But that's what real reefs do.

This is 30 grams of algae material (less actually - I couldn't get it fully dry). Reefs grow this on average every day in the surface area of a 55g tank. And yet on a reef, you never notice it...

The difference, I would argue is grazers. Real healthy reefs have a grazer army scaled to the job. When they don't for some reason, disaster occurs. (See how urchin disease wrecked caribbean reefs)

I submit that if you know all the algae grazers in your tank by name, you ain't got enough. Nor is going out and buying a few tangs going to create balance either. A sensible approach may be to find a heavy lifter or two and then fill the gaps with algae grazers that can reproduce in a reef tank and let their population scale up to the the tank's new healthy level of algae production, let these invisible armies keep your algae in check.
(admittedly, if your livestock is voracious invert predators, this could be a big challenge.)

You'll probably also want to grow some of that algae outside the display through a fuge or scrubber or similar, but if your scrubber is so effective that with minimal grazing, there's no noticeable algae production in the display, then that sounds like you've still got the same problem.
Above all we can't view algae growth as something to be avoided. That way lies madness.

or just run a sterile frag tank and nuke it every few weeks/months when something you don't like gets a foothold.

Those are the only sustainable end games I can see.

 

[taricha]

i am running a 36w jebao uv specifically to deal with my dinos (also prorocentrum) and it has made absolutely no difference unfortunately. i'm starting to get desperate after dealing with these f0r a year now and little to no improvement from the standard no water changes, nutrients at 10ppm and .10ppm techniques for the past couple of months.
hope is fading faster than my dinos are

I'll go through your old posts and see details of what all you've been doing. Hit me up by PM if you have more relevant info you haven't posted yet.