Help please... Stuck in an unbreakable cycle.

brandon429

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Ill be sure and watch as you step out of the sidelines here, onto the playing field, and guide the tank back. I won't blend these methods recommended with rip clean examples as a mix of the two is exclusive to both methods sought.

Your writing is always baiting (you seem to be against qt in qt threads, then I click your history to find you're not, but you don't type that way as you feign a position in the threads)


I'll be curious to see what you add to the pages of our effort here other than arguments within your first five minutes. Gobi, good luck with your reef we had it clean at the start man. Looks like this crew has different plans for your reef based on the experiences collectively. any thread McLovin posts in is a place I won't waste time arguing any more.
 
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i_am_mclovin

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Ill be sure and watch as you step out of the sidelines here, onto the playing field, and guide the tank back. I won't blend these methods recommended with rip clean examples as a mix of the two is exclusive to both methods sought.

Your writing is all over the place where you post, always baiting (you seem to be against qt in qt threads, then I click your history to find you're not, but you don't type that way as you feign a position in the threads)


I'll be curious to see what you add to the pages of our effort here other than arguments within your first five minutes. Gobi, good luck with your reef we had it clean at the start man. Looks like this crew has different plans for your reef based on the experiences collectively.
Still no idea what you're talking about. I QT my fish, and always recommend it. Please link the posts where I've said otherwise... Again I think you're confusing me with someone else. And my posts were merely a comment to what Vette and Gobi did, and with great success. You're the one who baited and tried to tell them that his results didn't matter cuz he wasn't doing it "your way". You do realize, that just like you, I'm allowed to make a comment without suddenly having to be the "driver" of the thread right? That's how forums work...
 
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Gobi-Wan

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If you have Dinos currently, the GHA will be your temporary friend. It will out compete the Dinos. Have you gotten a proper ID on the type of Dino it is?
That’s not true at the scale of my invasion. I had a massive outbreak of gha with Dino’s growing on top of it, literally for months, bonding the strands of gha together. Positively id’d under a microscope, I don’t remember the name now but it was the common substrate dwelling type that don’t go into the water column at night. I’ve had several types in the past. I had tons and tons of nutrients in the tank, but the gha bound it all up so the water tested 0’s on a Hanna checker. @brandon429 thank you so much for your help- you made a big difference for me being able to enjoy the hobby again and not quit and I have enjoyed reading a lot of your threads. I don’t agree that you have to be 100% in one camp or another and I’m just trying to do everything I can to have success. I respect your opinions which are based on tons of documented experience. Im not dosing as a permanent solution, I feel that Dino’s are a more dangerous invasion at least from what I heard in terms of toxicity and if by dosing I traded them for mats of diatoms I’d rather hand battle diatoms with the siphon than Dino’s. Thank you again for your help.
 
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Gobi-Wan

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Ill be sure and watch as you step out of the sidelines here, onto the playing field, and guide the tank back. I won't blend these methods recommended with rip clean examples as a mix of the two is exclusive to both methods sought.

Your writing is always baiting (you seem to be against qt in qt threads, then I click your history to find you're not, but you don't type that way as you feign a position in the threads)


I'll be curious to see what you add to the pages of our effort here other than arguments within your first five minutes. Gobi, good luck with your reef we had it clean at the start man. Looks like this crew has different plans for your reef based on the experiences collectively. any thread McLovin posts in is a place I won't waste time arguing any more.
I’m not always for or against anything… I’m just inexperienced and I’ve changed my methods constantly trying to figure out what works which I obviously haven’t yet. I’ve gone back and forth constantly trying to find stability for my tank. I never qt’d until I switched over to the 125 and Had a huge ich outbreak. Then I left the tank fallow for a couple months and now I qt all fish in copper. People have success with all different kinds of things which is what makes it impossible to find a single thing that everyone here agrees on. I’m just doing my best to think critically and sort through it all and help other people in the limited things I have had success with.
 

Ghost25

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That’s not true at the scale of my invasion. I had a massive outbreak of gha with Dino’s growing on top of it, literally for months, bonding the strands of gha together. Positively id’d under a microscope, I don’t remember the name now but it was the common substrate dwelling type that don’t go into the water column at night. I’ve had several types in the past. I had tons and tons of nutrients in the tank, but the gha bound it all up so the water tested 0’s on a Hanna checker. @brandon429 thank you so much for your help- you made a big difference for me being able to enjoy the hobby again and not quit and I have enjoyed reading a lot of your threads. I don’t agree that you have to be 100% in one camp or another and I’m just trying to do everything I can to have success. I respect your opinions which are based on tons of documented experience. Im not dosing as a permanent solution, I feel that Dino’s are a more dangerous invasion at least from what I heard in terms of toxicity and if by dosing I traded them for mats of diatoms I’d rather hand battle diatoms with the siphon than Dino’s. Thank you again for your help.

I agree, GHA absolutely fuels dinos, and dinos are one of the most harmful algae blooms for coral.
 
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Gobi-Wan

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Ok, I am now at a loss. The algae did not return at all. The Dino’s (large cell amphidinium) did return. Po4 has been dropping and I have been tuning the ATS by photoperiod and siphoning the Dino’s (near impossible to make an impact as they clump together and don’t siphon). This week for the first time po4 stayed exactly the same at .09. However when I took the ATS out it had basically no growth. What is going on? What exactly is it that outcompetes Dino’s for nutrients and how do I get it back in the tank? My phosphate has been .09 and/or higher for over a month.
 

Ghost25

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Ok, I am now at a loss. The algae did not return at all. The Dino’s (large cell amphidinium) did return. Po4 has been dropping and I have been tuning the ATS by photoperiod and siphoning the Dino’s (near impossible to make an impact as they clump together and don’t siphon). This week for the first time po4 stayed exactly the same at .09. However when I took the ATS out it had basically no growth. What is going on? What exactly is it that outcompetes Dino’s for nutrients and how do I get it back in the tank? My phosphate has been .09 and/or higher for over a month.

That sucks, sorry to hear that. Dinos are one of the more intractable problems in this hobby.

Even the commonly accepted "low nutrients cause dinos" theory is not a certainly. I also find the insistence on identifying the species rather odd considering I've never seen a clear breakdown of how the treatment should vary based on that info.
 
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Gobi-Wan

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That sucks, sorry to hear that. Dinos are one of the more intractable problems in this hobby.

Even the commonly accepted "low nutrients cause dinos" theory is not a certainly. I also find the insistence on identifying the species rather odd considering I've never seen a clear breakdown of how the treatment should vary based on that info.
It does matter in my experience. At least between the sand dwelling type I have now and the rest. The other types I’ve zapped completely with UV in a matter of days. These ones UV won’t touch
 

Aqua Man

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Without measuring i can tell you the nitrates will not be detectable on my old api kit and the hanna phosphate checker will say something between .001 and .005. do i need to get a better nitrate kit?
For most of us, when either N or P bottom out for long periods, Dino is the result.
Are you still measuring 0 for N?
With the error factor of the Hanna, .001 0r .005 is essentially 0


Ok, I am now at a loss. The algae did not return at all. The Dino’s (large cell amphidinium) did return.
At least it’s the less toxic species! I’ve had Ostreo in the past and whenever I let PO4 bottom out they come right back.
 

JoeinLA

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@Brandon, FWIW, your continued participation here would be greatly appreciated. I’d imagine. I just read the entire thread and was and am fascinated by this process. I didn’t take McL’s comments as argumentative or disruptive and certainly your guidance so far seemed spot on.

I can only imagine the frustration Gobi has had and he’s seemed fully willing to commit to your guidance.

Anyways, just thought I’d throw that out there.

of course, this is Gobi’s thread so feel free to tell me to keep my nose out of it :p I really do want to see a successful outcome here though!
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Joe,

prior it was typed there’s more than one way to manage a rip clean, we are watching those alternate means live time

i had taken time this morning to type out a huge help response and then it dawned on me it was a direct match to the planning stage here, word for word


Vette owns this one. Surface area is being plugged up to prevent expression of waste, flow into and across channeling is being stopped vs hand guiding to keep micro channels open as we covered in planning. new challenges are coming. If this was a staggered sandbed rip clean (accounts for size of the tank we had covered in planning) with a huge pond sterilizer off Amazon then we’d have a chance.

as soon as phosphate detailing begins (never typed once in planning) that’s when we get back to square one of the gha invasion. Hands off will slowly destroy the initial hard work


peroxide should have never been dosed to an invaded condition. That leaves mass in the system rotting, to plug up surfaces vs forced removal which keeps channeling open but requires work to cause.

hand forcing out all the dinos, directed spot siphoning actual removal from the system, never allowing closed channels and remassing, and using peroxide as a growback attempt would be ok but Vette didn’t permit that.



Every season my lawn is free of dandelions because I made it that way, with a butter knife, no luck is involved. Only bermuda is permitted, and I’m really serious about it. The day you drive up and see weeds and ‘lions, you’ll know more about my will than you will know about my lawn.
 
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Aqua Man

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The Dino thread is over 500 pages and I’ve read most of it. It’s interesting that the peroxide method is barely mentioned. Peroxide is a dangerous chemical if not used correctly. At least Brandon always mentions that shrimp are very sensitive to small doses of it.
 

brandon429

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Gobi's tank isn't fixed yet, and Vette doesn't have any peroxide work threads he runs, this is simply info off other people's work threads given as snippets.


Vette

you should not be giving this info until Gobi's tank is fixed, and sustained.



You need to have work threads that involve other people's reefs, not your own excellent reef, as the basis for anything you recommend. don't type a short paragraph taken from other's work threads, post a link of jobs you actually finished.


@vetteguy53081

You literally owe this to Gobi.
 
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brandon429

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@vetteguy53081

Please complete assistance for Gobi. once its finished and sustained, this link here can be your work link you give to others instead of typing out that peroxide advice unabated across 100% of dinos posts.
 

jda

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This whole thread makes me sad... from a tank that is not being enjoyed to the absolute ridiculous advice to one reefer who does not practice what they preach and works off the backs of others with no experience calling out another for allegedly the same thing.

@Gobi-Wan, there are ways out of this, but they do not have any quick solutions, no magic tricks and will take some work. There are plenty of us who can help with this, but we don't subscribe to the internet mob approach to running a tank and deal with things which are usually short lived. I practice what I preach in my own home and have results to show for it... for decades. If you would like to change your paradigm to developing a tank where nature and equilibrium take over, then let me know. Anything that you do to interrupt this usually needs repaid 10x in kind the other direction.

In any case, good luck, and I strongly suggest that you start to pay attention to those that do instead of those that just post. Always works. Always has.
 

brandon429

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Jda when I clicked affirm to open/read, I was hoping you too would have a specific work you can link, to show a completed job through to completion vs the bench analysis.

why is pulling teeth easier than just getting a completed job logged on file from critics

just one link from a job you've completed, puts us right back on track and backs up your stance well

it can't be a job someone else worked with peroxide, has to be one you did, live and on the spot.
 

brandon429

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Gobi

if you want to resume in chat we can. if I don't hear back from you/understandable/ then your main action will be constantly disallowing the massing of dinos, the constant clean condition you don't have to take anything apart to maintain, and then dosing peroxide as the preventative/along with the UV mentioned here about nine times. that's your best bet logged from pages of completed dinos jobs.


you wouldn't dose peroxide into a tank blanketed in waste, that's what the masses do (and advise)

you'd do opposite of the constantly invaded masses-keep a forced clean tank and experiment with action events as growback preventers, including a bag of pods from algae barn. uv isn't going to kill those, they're benthic dwellers mostly.


The sand being in the tank isn't causing dinos, its giving them refuge, and the longer you delay forced siphon top removal the deeper they seat in among diurnal movements back and forth within the tank. being sandless for a while would lessen your removal efforts but isn't required.

at no time would you boost or lower nitrate or phosphate into the system, that will bring back square one invasion. its all action and no form of hands off aggregation. best of luck man.

you only get to back off the repeat manual removals when you find the lucky preventative. at no point does the preventative become the remover, if you want to win.
 
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vetteguy53081

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@vetteguy53081

Please complete assistance for Gobi. once its finished and sustained, this link here can be your work link you give to others instead of typing out that peroxide advice unabated across 100% of dinos posts.
Not only does this work but I’m at work and simply don’t have the time. I don’t work for R2R
Perhaps you can suggest this person rip clean the tank and throw away everything they’ve worked for to get ugly stages all over again
Be it known I get dozens of messages or pm emails thanking me for a detailed and effective method
Good day !!!
 

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143EFD3D-6FC1-4FBC-BB7F-3301DB79BFDE.gif
 

brandon429

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The ignore button works wonders.


Team/aside from bickering I'm genuinely curious to have non argument responses to this question:


anyone who scans the 450 page dinos thread from the Nuisance algae forum can see the minority of posts are fixes within a reasonable time frame. It's not a self supporting analysis to state that 80% or so of posters don't really get free of invasions using the techniques found repeating in that thread.

**at least 20-30% wins are shown, considering its the toughest invasion in reefing we'll take what we can get.


But I'm directly reading right now several, several posts where the dinos either didn't go away OR the tradeoff invasions from cyano, gha or more dino caused the reefer ongoing distress and / or starting over and throwing out/wasting most of the current scape and inhabitants

(and then dinos ride in on the slime coat of fish, into the new tank :) )

poster DNA in the huge www.reefcentral.com dinos thread, in the chemistry forum, photographed slime coat vectoring with high res macro photography way back in 2011 go source out the thread to see.

what in you guys' collective opinion needs to change in order to flip those ratios into dominant wins/is it even possible?

why aren't pico reefs constantly swamped in dinos/to the degree I can't find a single example on any board right now of one? what do small tanks have over large tanks, when it comes to the world's worst reef tank scourge



there's the thread for scanning or % outcome/pattern adjustments.

in 576 pages ongoing, how many were 2-3 gallon pico reefs

think there aren't many 2-3 gallon pico reefs> scan www.nano-reef.com let me know if that's the case. the picos forum has been running there since 2006, how many dinos invasions can you find

something is different between how pico reefers are trained and how large tankers are trained...whats the difference? is the training the swing vote, or the gallonage of the systems?

I'll take my popcurn smothered in parmesan/wood chip grindage tyvm
 
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