HIGH END Tenuis Hoarder

[ScottB]

You’re not wrong. I have a temp/ ph handheld at the moment if I need to check those. Hanna meters. Sold the Apex. I may try GHL in the future. I’m not relying on a doser, eye and hands on there.

I was making an aircraft pilot joke. "Approach" is a keyword. My error.

I have almost equal parts gratitude and grief when it comes to APEX. Software is awesome. Hardware is abominable. I would never fly with that hardware. Teach me that I can learn about GHL software. I already operate a lot of German hardware so I have NO questions there. The German software I need some lessons on.

Sorry Shane. Again. I always digress. But hey, all my chunky NY Reefapaloosa frags from you are cooking along nicely!

 

[SBB Corals]

Personally, I feel like your study regarding all these trace element products reassured me that we really shouldn’t be blindly dosing anything that we can’t test for. Whether that’s trace elements, amino acids or even some types of food.
I have stopped trying to find a “miracle product” that is going to give me more growth or better color and I have been trusting my weekly 10-20% water changes. I quit dosing any kind of additive (minus 2 part) back in February and I can say that my system has been thriving and my sticks seem to be growing and coloring quite nicely. I do attribute some of my success with my home made frozen coral and fish food. There is a decent amount of particulate matter for the corals in this mix. That food and my religious water changes have worked remarkably for me.

Shane, I’d like to know why you feel that you need to dose an additive rather than maybe setting up an auto water change system?

Glad you found a routine that is working for you! Sometimes its just easier to keep things simple and do the basics.

The reason we need to dose some additives is because the salt is not high enough in a few things. For example the salt is not high enough in Iodine. We like to keep our Iodine at 90. Also the salt is not high enough in Strontium we like to keep it at 12ish.. The water changes are good but if the salt is only 75 on Iodine it will never go to 90 with just water changes. WIth the water changes essential you are taking out the 75 and adding additional 75.. so you are just replacing what you take out and the level will never go higher.. this i why we need to dose on top of the water changes.

thanks for your comments!

 

[john90009]

Hey Shane, which sodium nitrate product do you recommend? I know alot of food grade ones are safe but just curious. With a small tank I was hoping that neonitros proprietary blend of salts did not contain alot of other elements but I guess that’s what the price is for. On a small tank I am sure my tank has been stacking up on the other elements while consuming the nitrate so fast. On another note have you gotten to pinpoint what helps lead to pulling the two toned polpys out in some tenuis, having trouble getting red polpys on the jolt while cherrybomb is as red as a cardinal.

 

[xshmoox]

Idk if you have looked into it Shane but what you may be trying to accomplish is what the reef moonshiners program accomplishes by dosing all these certain elements differently and the sps tanks on this program are amazing

 

[SBB Corals]

Thank you Shane for sharing these results. I've not dosed Red Sea elements, but am a fairly large consumer of ESV 2-Part. Looking at those numbers I was very surprised to see Hg (mercury!) in the Calcium solution. No more ornamental sushi for me.

But I was not at all surprised to see high levels of LI (Lithium). I have always tested high for lithium and was blaming IORC. Perhaps I misplaced the blame after all. Either way, my corals were never bothered and my fish rarely exhibit any signs of depression either.

So the samples you sent were fully concentrated and not diluted with NSW?

They will all fully concentrated. I was wondering if they should be diluted.. Maybe I should have sent them diluted but it seems the triton ICP was able to read them just fine with the concentrated solutions.

 

[SBB Corals]

Oh dayum maybe thats why i had 2 sps stn on me recently. I also dose ESV b ionic and started red sea ABCD a couple weeks ago, have noticed a lower alk consumption. Im gonna have to do an ICP test.

Yes you deff need an ICP test or you are flying blind!

 

[TonyP]

Hello Everybody,

I hope you are all well and enjoying your summer! We want to start a discussion about trace elements, Triton ICP tests, and dosing. Trace elements and overdosing ultimately lead to a tank crash.

As a lot of you know, we are doing red sea ABCD at 5ML per day in our 550 Gallon SPS system. We use ESV Ionic 2 Part alk and calc, which claims to have trace elements, and do water changes with tropic marine pro salt at 18 percent per week.

Now, the question is, how do we dose trace elements to keep up with the coral demands? Our tank is packed rim to rim with tenuis colonies making our up-and-down seesaw crazy. Since we dose ABCD and really have no idea what is in it as well as Tropic Marine Pro salt and ESV 2 part, we decided to send in Triton ICP Tests for each of the A B C and D red sea bottles: ESV Ionic Alc, ESV Ionic Calc, as well as the Tropic Marine pro salt, all attached in this thread. Feel free to download and review all of the results.

We are all watching for trace elements for various reasons. Here are some of them:

We are watching Iodine for SPS Tenuis Corals as we feel Iodine at 0 is generally bad for our tanks. We know that Iodine in the 80-100 Range is ideal while Iodine at 0 can cause Bleaching, Slow Growth, and RTN. After doing our research, it seems that nobody is able to pinpoint why Iodine is important but Forums like those below show that many users experience the same problem. Lack of Iodine causes issues while then dosing iodine shows favorable results within weeks. The link below is a good read for this.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/effects-of-iodine-in-sps.254065/

We are watching Strontium as we feel that Strontium Levels for Sps Tenuis Corals should be in the range of 10-12 to promote healthy corals; when SPS corals are fragged at these higher strontium levels, the corals heal up faster.

Here is a good read on Strontium:

https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium-chemistry-strontium-and-the-reef-aquarium/

We are watching many other developments and will discuss them in future topics. Let us know which trace elements you are monitoring and dosing along with what effect they have on SPS corals.

Now, back to our topic. Our recent triton test showed that we were high on some trace elements, but we didn't realize why. For example, we are always testing high on Potassium, Iron, and a few other things so we decided to send in triton tests for everything we are dosing plus the salt mix. What we have found is that a lot of the A, B, C, and D red sea products have many of the same elements and using multiple ones can easily and quickly lead to overdosing.

Two examples are highlighted below:

First, let’s look at a study of Potassium. The bottle labeled A, which is Iodine, has a ton of Potassium - at 4171 MG/L, it’s off the charts. bottle B labeled Potassium has 8778 MG/L, while ESV 2 Part Calcium has 2723 MG/L, and Tropic Marine Pro has 352 MG/L. We were also dosing Brightwell Neontiro which also has a ton of Potassium; we since stopped and are now dosing pure Sodium Nitrate, because we don't want to dose more potassium – LOL. In our 550 Gallon system, our Potassium levels are 718 MG/L. With all of these trace elements being dosed, you can see how easily the Potassium can rise and lead to overdosing. I am concerned that a lot of Hobbyists are flying blind and start dosing too many of these products and eventually have a tank crash as a result of a build-up.

Let's go through yet another example. In our 550 Gallon system, another Element that is always high for us is Iron. Currently, our Iron is at 5.6 UG/L. This is relatively high, and we had no idea why, until we sent in a Triton ICP test for everything we are using and dosing. Starting with the red sea ABCD products, the bottle labeled A Iodine has 464 UG/L Iron, B Potassium has 172 UG/L Iron, C has 281733 UG/L iron, and finally, the bottle Labeled D Bioactive Elements has 2056 UG/L Iron. Tropic Marine Reef pro has 47 UG/L Iron. As you can, it is no wonder that we have high Iron. This is just another example of how dosing blind can lead to the overdosing and crashing of a tank.

Another thing to note is that we are only dosing 5ML per day of Red Sea ABCD which is much less than the recommended dose. Since our tank is packed with Tenuis Colonies, these trace elements are reduced. Keep in mind that we are much lower than the recommended dosage for these elements. If a general hobbyist follows the normal recommended dosage and has less coral, an overdose will happen even faster, leading to a crash.

In conclusion, be careful dosing trace elements and don’t dose blindly. It could lead to a crash, and without testing and monitoring everything, you won't know why. We will continue to test and tweak to try and find balance with our trace elements. We are now considering dosing individual elements instead of the current ones for our trace element supplements in order to attain the desired ranges. We hope you can also use these Triton ICP tests as a guide in your reefing, and that this answers some of the questions you may have on why your corals don't look well or your tank is crashing.

We hope you will contribute to this discussion as we also would like to learn from your experiences. Thanks for taking the time to read this write up.

Shane,

This is an excellent write-up and probably what contributed to my 300G tank crash. Thanks for talking me through things yesterday and the day before. I've gone through everything, completed the first water change (WC) and waiting for the RODI to refill my 90G WC barrel for the next WC. As we discussed on the phone, I've been dosing the recommended amounts of RedSea parts ABCD. Dosing is set at zero for all parts right now.

Other lessons learned from our talks, stay on top of your RODI filter changes (always use your TDS meter). No magnets, routinely inspect all metal parts for rust, do not get lazy with husbandry and last....trust your eyes; act/test your water the moment things look different.

I owe you brother...I'll hit you up later on IG on my progress.
Tony

 

[SBB Corals]

Glad the frags are doing well for you. would love to see some pics of their development at some point

I was making an aircraft pilot joke. "Approach" is a keyword. My error.

I have almost equal parts gratitude and grief when it comes to APEX. Software is awesome. Hardware is abominable. I would never fly with that hardware. Teach me that I can learn about GHL software. I already operate a lot of German hardware so I have NO questions there. The German software I need some lessons on.

Sorry Shane. Again. I always digress. But hey, all my chunky NY Reefapaloosa frags from you are cooking along nicely!

 

[SBB Corals]

Hey Shane, which sodium nitrate product do you recommend? I know alot of food grade ones are safe but just curious. With a small tank I was hoping that neonitros proprietary blend of salts did not contain alot of other elements but I guess that’s what the price is for. On a small tank I am sure my tank has been stacking up on the other elements while consuming the nitrate so fast. On another note have you gotten to pinpoint what helps lead to pulling the two toned polpys out in some tenuis, having trouble getting red polpys on the jolt while cherrybomb is as red as a cardinal.

The sodium Nitrate i would recommend is

https://www.loudwolf.com/storefront/index.php?route=product/product&path=760&product_id=1117

This is the best one we have found at the moment and it is Reagent grade which is good.

I wish we knew how we got the 2 toned polyps. I think everything needs to be stable and on points. Have you started monitoring your Iodine, Strontium and Molybdenum? These 3 Trace elements are usually vey low and deplete fast in a home tank. It may be something to look at on your next triton Test. Happy Reefing!!!

 

[john90009]

Thank you for your response, luckily my strontium was fine however like you expected the iodine and molybdenum was low, I have a stand alone iodine supplement but not sure what to do for moly?

 

[SBB Corals]

Idk if you have looked into it Shane but what you may be trying to accomplish is what the reef moonshiners program accomplishes by dosing all these certain elements differently and the sps tanks on this program are amazing

thank you yes i know this program and think it is a great one!

 

[SBB Corals]

Shane,

This is an excellent write-up and probably what contributed to my 300G tank crash. Thanks for talking me through things yesterday and the day before. I've gone through everything, completed the first water change (WC) and waiting for the RODI to refill my 90G WC barrel for the next WC. As we discussed on the phone, I've been dosing the recommended amounts of RedSea parts ABCD. Dosing is set at zero for all parts right now.

Other lessons learned from our talks, stay on top of your RODI filter changes (always use your TDS meter). No magnets, routinely inspect all metal parts for rust, do not get lazy with husbandry and last....trust your eyes; act/test your water the moment things look different.

I owe you brother...I'll hit you up later on IG on my progress.
Tony

I hope you have found all the issues. Is the water changes working? Please post the results hopefully everything is turning around for the better!

 

[SBB Corals]

Thank you for your response, luckily my strontium was fine however like you expected the iodine and molybdenum was low, I have a stand alone iodine supplement but not sure what to do for moly?

For Moly you can get

Trace Base Molybdenum 100mL

Increase your reef tank's Molybdenum without increasing other compounds or elements with ultra-pure Triton additives. The Triton System is based on accurate ICP-OES Testing that tells you exactly how much of any element may be in your aquarium allowing you to keep a healthy, sustainable reef...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

what was your iodine reading?

 

[TonyP]

I'm sharing my embarrassing issues to hopefully help someone to learn from my experience.
My tank was beautiful, SPS was growing too fast and I was running out of space in my 300G. Then some of my SPS went from this:

to this in a few months:

I couldn't figure out what was going on so I reached out to Shane (SBB) and he took the time out of his day to help me. I truly appreciate it, I'm pretty sure he gets calls all the time but he gave time for me. I couldn't see what was already in front of me. Through a series of questions from Shane we discovered that I've been really complacent/lazy with the critical areas of the hobby.

First: my RODI system:

The batteries in my TDS meter have been dead for at least 12 months. This came up when Shane asked me what my TDS # were. I had to run to the store for new 357 batteries:

With 1ppm coming out of my system and into my barrels, this is bad! There's no telling how long dirty water was going into my system. I drained both barrels, replaced all the filters and membranes, flushed the RODI system and started the refill process.

Shane believed that I may have rust in my tank from either magnets, powerheads, frag racks, etc. He was right, my ECOTECH MP60 QD's both had rust (both magnets were clean).

I ordered new wet sides and had them shipped overnight. The rust conversation come up while Shane was reviewing my ICP test results (some results show in PPB vice PPM, I don't know why they did that). October 2020 when my tank was incredible:

July2021, sadness:

Metals! I had those results all this time but failed to really pay attention to them. I stopped all water flow through my system, drained 180 gallons, and scrapped out all the old dirt, sludge, grime, detritus, overgrown chaeto, etc. that could find. I used my wet-dry vac to suck it all out. I couldn't believe how much crap came out of my sumps.

We also discovered that I was also dosing the "recommended amounts" of RedSea ABCD which I changed about 6 months ago (I was being greedy and wanted MORE color for my SPS that were doing just fine). Prior to, I was only dosing about 1-2 ml of ABCD. Shane has a great write-up on this (Post #850).
I lost a lot of SPS during this timeframe and my wallet is not looking forward to repopulating the tank. I'll have to hit SBB up for some "package deals" later.
In addition to the water changes, I've added Seachem CupriSorb and Two Little Fishes MetaSorb UHC as an additional measure. I will perform another 90Gallon water change today and another on Saturday.
I finally have good PE on my SPS survivors so that's a good start but they've lost so much color.

 

[SBB Corals]

I'm sharing my embarrassing issues to hopefully help someone to learn from my experience.
My tank was beautiful, SPS was growing too fast and I was running out of space in my 300G. Then some of my SPS went from this:

to this in a few months:

I couldn't figure out what was going on so I reached out to Shane (SBB) and he took the time out of his day to help me. I truly appreciate it, I'm pretty sure he gets calls all the time but he gave time for me. I couldn't see what was already in front of me. Through a series of questions from Shane we discovered that I've been really complacent/lazy with the critical areas of the hobby.

First: my RODI system:

The batteries in my TDS meter have been dead for at least 12 months. This came up when Shane asked me what my TDS # were. I had to run to the store for new 357 batteries:

With 1ppm coming out of my system and into my barrels, this is bad! There's no telling how long dirty water was going into my system. I drained both barrels, replaced all the filters and membranes, flushed the RODI system and started the refill process.

Shane believed that I may have rust in my tank from either magnets, powerheads, frag racks, etc. He was right, my ECOTECH MP60 QD's both had rust (both magnets were clean).

I ordered new wet sides and had them shipped overnight. The rust conversation come up while Shane was reviewing my ICP test results (some results show in PPB vice PPM, I don't know why they did that). October 2020 when my tank was incredible:

July2021, sadness:

Metals! I had those results all this time but failed to really pay attention to them. I stopped all water flow through my system, drained 180 gallons, and scrapped out all the old dirt, sludge, grime, detritus, overgrown chaeto, etc. that could find. I used my wet-dry vac to suck it all out. I couldn't believe how much crap came out of my sumps.

We also discovered that I was also dosing the "recommended amounts" of RedSea ABCD which I changed about 6 months ago (I was being greedy and wanted MORE color for my SPS that were doing just fine). Prior to, I was only dosing about 1-2 ml of ABCD. Shane has a great write-up on this (Post #850).
I lost a lot of SPS during this timeframe and my wallet is not looking forward to repopulating the tank. I'll have to hit SBB up for some "package deals" later.
In addition to the water changes, I've added Seachem CupriSorb and Two Little Fishes MetaSorb UHC as an additional measure. I will perform another 90Gallon water change today and another on Saturday.
I finally have good PE on my SPS survivors so that's a good start but they've lost so much color.

Glad things are turning around for you! great write up as i am sure other can learn from your post. thanks for taking the time to write this up and document it.

 

[Sweet Reef Corals]

I'm sharing my embarrassing issues to hopefully help someone to learn from my experience.
My tank was beautiful, SPS was growing too fast and I was running out of space in my 300G. Then some of my SPS went from this:

to this in a few months:

I couldn't figure out what was going on so I reached out to Shane (SBB) and he took the time out of his day to help me. I truly appreciate it, I'm pretty sure he gets calls all the time but he gave time for me. I couldn't see what was already in front of me. Through a series of questions from Shane we discovered that I've been really complacent/lazy with the critical areas of the hobby.

First: my RODI system:

The batteries in my TDS meter have been dead for at least 12 months. This came up when Shane asked me what my TDS # were. I had to run to the store for new 357 batteries:

With 1ppm coming out of my system and into my barrels, this is bad! There's no telling how long dirty water was going into my system. I drained both barrels, replaced all the filters and membranes, flushed the RODI system and started the refill process.

Shane believed that I may have rust in my tank from either magnets, powerheads, frag racks, etc. He was right, my ECOTECH MP60 QD's both had rust (both magnets were clean).

I ordered new wet sides and had them shipped overnight. The rust conversation come up while Shane was reviewing my ICP test results (some results show in PPB vice PPM, I don't know why they did that). October 2020 when my tank was incredible:

July2021, sadness:

Metals! I had those results all this time but failed to really pay attention to them. I stopped all water flow through my system, drained 180 gallons, and scrapped out all the old dirt, sludge, grime, detritus, overgrown chaeto, etc. that could find. I used my wet-dry vac to suck it all out. I couldn't believe how much crap came out of my sumps.

We also discovered that I was also dosing the "recommended amounts" of RedSea ABCD which I changed about 6 months ago (I was being greedy and wanted MORE color for my SPS that were doing just fine). Prior to, I was only dosing about 1-2 ml of ABCD. Shane has a great write-up on this (Post #850).
I lost a lot of SPS during this timeframe and my wallet is not looking forward to repopulating the tank. I'll have to hit SBB up for some "package deals" later.
In addition to the water changes, I've added Seachem CupriSorb and Two Little Fishes MetaSorb UHC as an additional measure. I will perform another 90Gallon water change today and another on Saturday.
I finally have good PE on my SPS survivors so that's a good start but they've lost so much color.

Hey guys, am I missing something here? I would expect Chlorine to be 0?!

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Hey guys, am I missing something here? I would expect Chlorine to be 0?!

Not sure where the chlorine measurement comes from. This was a fresh batch of unused tropic marin pro btw

 

[SBB Corals]

Hey guys, am I missing something here? I would expect Chlorine to be 0?!

that's a great questions. I Sent in for ICP triton which doesn't test this.. Maybe somebody else can Chime in

 

[TonyP]

Hey guys, am I missing something here? I would expect Chlorine to be 0?!

I've noticed that since my very first ICP test a couple years ago. My ICP's have always shown Chlorine and my tank was perfectly happy. Hopefully someone can answer that question for us since ICP wasn't any help.

 

[ScottB]

I've noticed that since my very first ICP test a couple years ago. My ICP's have always shown Chlorine and my tank was perfectly happy. Hopefully someone can answer that question for us since ICP wasn't any help.

It is not that kind of chlorine (Cl) but the kind that binds with sodium (Na) to form salt (NaCl). Sodium Chloride.

Somewhere in Randy's Chemistry forum is a discussion about this.