Hobby grade “quarantine” probably kills more fish than it saves.

[Ninic Luka]

This is likely to be an unpopular opinion but here it goes:

It is my sincere belief that “hobby grade” quarantine causes more harm than good.

The fish you just got is stressed from travel, probably stressed from being caught in the wild recently and instead of dropping it into your large display tank with plenty of rocks to hide and established chemistry, pods and tank mates you drop it into a tiny tank with freshly made saltwater, possibly no biological filter and a tiny piece of PVC…

I truly believe that more fish have been killed by this process than saved.

If the fish looks healthy I just drop it straight into the display, preferably at dusk, have had zero issues with this method in the last 16 years.

I believe one of the old school reefers was also in this camp, can’t remember his name at this time.

Any one else agree with this?

i wouldn't agree. i always have few sponge filters and power filter running in my sump and just drop them in qt. also i bought fish that looked healthy but it wasnt it had ich velvet black ich and internal parasites luckily i qted that tang and he is fat and healthy now it saved my reef for sure. most fish stores keep their fish in s.g. of 1.020 fish can love inthere but in that s.g. parasites don't show up on the fish they are "hidden". i got 15 fish from a store that is on the other side of the continent. about 2 fish have died (chromis) in firat 24h. never lost fish in qt. one time i didn't qt ,because didn't have room, fish and got ich outbreak lost one of them. i dose prime have amonia allert and zeolit rocks ond bottom glass you are just lucky nothing else

 

[Ninic Luka]

Another thing: adding fish to tankmates is your case against QT, but tell me which fish would be stoked to have more competition for food/shelter?

New fish go through a lot of stress and are underfed. If you keep a 10-20 gallon tank, actually put the effort to seed it with bacteria/cycle it, have an ammonia alert badge, I’m sure you’d have much better results.

Even if you won’t medicate. Having a small peaceful tank to condition and raise the malnourished fish’s immune system is way better than the “dump and pray” approach that I used to use.

imo good water quality good feeding (i freed my qts with frozen foods 3 times at the day if its tang inthere i would feed nori once a day and one meal a day is soaking in vitamins. also as you said you done need to medicate i do observation qt if i see desise i treat for it if there is no desise they are inthere for 30days getting quality food and fat. i personally dont see stress at all when thay are in qt

 

[i cant think]

i wouldn't agree. i always have few sponge filters and power filter running in my sump and just drop them in qt. also i bought fish that looked healthy but it wasnt it had ich velvet black ich and internal parasites luckily i qted that tang and he is fat and healthy now it saved my reef for sure. most fish stores keep their fish in s.g. of 1.020 fish can love inthere but in that s.g. parasites don't show up on the fish they are "hidden". i got 15 fish from a store that is on the other side of the continent. about 2 fish have died (chromis) in firat 24h. never lost fish in qt. one time i didn't qt ,because didn't have room, fish and got ich outbreak lost one of them. i dose prime have amonia allert and zeolit rocks ond bottom glass you are just lucky nothing else

Something tells me that it may not have been a good inspection of the fish because you said parasites are not visible on the fish, often if the fish has parasites the gill beats go over 100 beats per minute, their swimming can be abnormal (Twitching in the tail, the body and sometimes the fins) if it’s a velvet case then there will be a bunch of white spots all over the fish and it will look more dusty whereas Ich has white spots that are more dispersed and you will often see that on the fish if it’s got a disease. It may have been stress from transit that helped the cycle move quicker though

 

[i cant think]

Another thing: adding fish to tankmates is your case against QT, but tell me which fish would be stoked to have more competition for food/shelter?

New fish go through a lot of stress and are underfed. If you keep a 10-20 gallon tank, actually put the effort to seed it with bacteria/cycle it, have an ammonia alert badge, I’m sure you’d have much better results.

Even if you won’t medicate. Having a small peaceful tank to condition and raise the malnourished fish’s immune system is way better than the “dump and pray” approach that I used to use.

This is similar to what I do (I have a nano with 3 fish, and it will often become a house to the wrasse that are too small to be with my Scott’s, atm it’s housings a naoko and has been for the past 3-4 months, he still isn’t the right size for the Scott’s unfortunately)

 

[i cant think]

And as long as you have positive results it proves your point obviously . Since you found Paul's post that encourages your methodology of dump and pray , do yourself a favor and type in "velvet" in the search bar .

I have faced Ich, knowing what it was however velvet is one of the things most people if they can inspect the fish before getting it will look for on the fish (along with eating, mouth injuries ect..)

 

[Ninic Luka]

Something tells me that it may not have been a good inspection of the fish because you said parasites are not visible on the fish, often if the fish has parasites the gill beats go over 100 beats per minute, their swimming can be abnormal (Twitching in the tail, the body and sometimes the fins) if it’s a velvet case then there will be a bunch of white spots all over the fish and it will look more dusty whereas Ich has white spots that are more dispersed and you will often see that on the fish if it’s got a disease. It may have been stress from transit that helped the cycle move quicker though

that scopas looked perfectly fine didn't saw anything abnormal he aet also was only fish in qt he started getting sick after 2 weeks when i slowly started raising s.g. at 1.023 symptoms started showing up

 

[pbrown]

I have had good success with my QT, but one time whole in copper treatment a new 6 line wrasse died expelling the largest worm I have ever seen. The worm was stuck have in him/ half out when the wrasse passed. I was bummed but also thankful the parasites he had in him didn’t get deposited in my tank.

since then I have a local marine fish seller who has a business out of his home. I preorder the fish I want, he QT’s in copper etc for numerous weeks and when the appropriate treatment is done I take the fish home, acclimate and deposit directly in my tank.
he runs a small, effective operation and I am willing to pay more to not have to QT… yet feel confident in the health/status of the fish entering my ecosystem.

 

[Paul B]

Didn’t people used to run tanks in the 80s to increase growth?

Why would 82 kill them? This is in the range of being able to keep a healthy reef.

My tank is 82 degrees now. My fish have to live with me, I don't have to live with them so if they want air conditioning, there is a Costco down the block. ;Wideyed

I am pretty sure Paul said something about his tank flooding today and he put a bunch lower temp (didn’t bother to heat it up) lower salinity water (cuz it rained) in it from the ocean without a care.

Yep, 10 gallons. Of course I haven't seen my tank today so maybe everything croaked last night and I can now keep tree frogs in that tank.

 

[MnFish1]

My coral QT is 82 and the acros, softies, LPS do fine. Probably do better in there than the DT

Didn’t people used to run tanks in the 80s to increase growth?

Why would 82 kill them? This is in the range of being able to keep a healthy reef.

Corals in the wild can be exposed to many temperature fluctuations.

Modest daily temperature variation of 2-4 °F, and perhaps as much as 6 °F, seems to have little if any discernable negative impact on corals (or likely on other reef organisms), as long as the temperature doesn’t go too far outside a tolerable range. Hence, going to the extra effort and extra expense that is usually required to keep the temperature extremely stable in a reef tank is probably unnecessary in most cases, and likely provides little reward for the effort and expense. For example, the corals and other animals in a reef tank that swings daily from 78 °F to 82 °F and back again are likely to be just as healthy and grow at a rate indistinguishable from those in a tank kept at a constant temperature within this range.

It’s actually kind of interesting because it goes on to stay some experiments were done and corals in a tank kept at a very constant temperature were more likely to be vulnerable and die to an equipment failure when temp swing happens then those corals that are in tanks that swing daily or seasonally. That actually purposely bringing the tank temp up now and again can actually lead to hardier corals.

The Great Temperature Debate, Part IV

By Chris Jury Introduction Throughout this series I’ve begun by discussing the predominant temperature conditions in the tropics and subtropics, where m

reefs.com

I am pretty sure Paul said something about his tank flooding today and he put a bunch lower temp (didn’t bother to heat it up) lower salinity water (cuz it rained) in it from the ocean without a care.

Corals don’t seem to die that easy. Well maybe pampered ones according to the article.

If I am stupid for QT my corals at 82, my corals have yet to tell me. Actually the last ones grew bryopsis and Aiptasia off what was a clean looking plug while in that 45 day spa. Pretty helpful but now I have to go nuclear on the QT tank and clean those buggers out one of these days.

I have quoted this article many times. Yes - on the reef the temperature can change intra-day. Yes - on the reef the temperature is often in the 80's. My point was that most tank-raised corals are not used to those temps, and are kept at 76-78. Increasing the temp quickly is asking for problems IMHO (again - for the average person).

 

[MnFish1]

PS - @Tamberav - if you read my post I said - moving corals from 76-78 'short term' to 82 could be a bad idea. Then after they have been at a constant 82 for weeks, back to 76-78. To me - its not a good idea. And - my idea of an ATO is dumping 4 gallons of room temperature RO/DI water directly into my 100 gallon tank. So - I'm not overly paranoid about these things lol.

 

[Tamberav]

PS - @Tamberav - if you read my post I said - moving corals from 76-78 'short term' to 82 could be a bad idea. Then after they have been at a constant 82 for weeks, back to 76-78. To me - its not a good idea. And - my idea of an ATO is dumping 4 gallons of room temperature RO/DI water directly into my 100 gallon tank. So - I'm not overly paranoid about these things lol.

From experience.... like actually doing it. As in, I QT all my corals and inverts for 45 days at 82. I am telling you. Everything, many assortment of corals was totally okay and they were from many different people and venders. People run tanks of different parameters of alk and nutrients and temp and so on yet majority of people dip and drop them in the tank.

I haven't bought any new corals in awhile. Frankly my tank is getting full but here is a photo of my fishless 82 degree QT and some corals in it from the last batch.

No testing, no dosing, no skimmer, no floss, no carbon, no fish, no feeding, just a monthly 50% water change and 82 degrees and a ATO. Tank is a IM 25g. Simple, easy, effective QT that does not kill corals. All it took was some live rock.

 

[Paul B]

I have never dipped a coral and wouldn't even know what to dip it in or what for.

 

[Miami Reef]

From experience.... like actually doing it. As in, I QT all my corals and inverts for 45 days at 82. I am telling you. Everything, many assortment of corals was totally okay and they were from many different people and venders. People run tanks of different parameters of alk and nutrients and temp and so on yet majority of people dip and drop them in the tank.

I haven't bought any new corals in awhile. Frankly my tank is getting full but here is a photo of my fishless 82 degree QT and some corals in it from the last batch.

No testing, no dosing, no skimmer, no floss, no carbon, no fish, no feeding, just a monthly 50% water change and 82 degrees and a ATO. Tank is a IM 25g. Simple, easy, effective QT that does not kill corals. All it took was some live rock.

THIS^^^

 

[Tamberav]

I have never dipped a coral and wouldn't even know what to dip it in or what for.

I dip fish in tartar sauce

 

[Sleepingtiger]

From experience.... like actually doing it. As in, I QT all my corals and inverts for 45 days at 82. I am telling you. Everything, many assortment of corals was totally okay and they were from many different people and venders. People run tanks of different parameters of alk and nutrients and temp and so on yet majority of people dip and drop them in the tank.

I haven't bought any new corals in awhile. Frankly my tank is getting full but here is a photo of my fishless 82 degree QT and some corals in it from the last batch.

No testing, no dosing, no skimmer, no floss, no carbon, no fish, no feeding, just a monthly 50% water change and 82 degrees and a ATO. Tank is a IM 25g. Simple, easy, effective QT that does not kill corals. All it took was some live rock.

you mention inverts... you don't feed the inverts for 6 weeks and they still make it out? I plan on getting cuc for my build. Thinking about quarantine the cuc. So trying to find different ways to quarantine and keep my display disease free.

 

[Tamberav]

you mention inverts... you don't feed the inverts for 6 weeks and they still make it out? I plan on getting cuc for my build. Thinking about quarantine the cuc. So trying to find different ways to quarantine and keep my display disease free.

It's snails and hermits so no I don't. The rock is live rock and the tank is full of hitchhiker feather dusters and pods and micro algae that the inverts to eat. The glass gets full of green micro algae like any other tank after a few days-week. I actually don't scrape it often and sometimes you can not see into the tank except from the top down lol I just have it clean for the photo.

If your tank is more sterile, I notice my snails (at night) eat the nori bits on the clip left over from the fish that I feed in my DT.

 

[Sleepingtiger]

It's snails and hermits so no I don't. The rock is live rock and the tank is full of hitchhiker feather dusters and pods and micro algae that the inverts to eat. The glass gets full of green micro algae like any other tank after a few days-week. I actually don't scrape it often and sometimes you can not see into the tank except from the top down lol I just have it clean for the photo.

If your tank is more sterile, I notice my snails (at night) eat the nori bits on the clip left over from the fish that I feed in my DT.

Personally I think those that set up a coral QT with just frag racks and media they seed with dr tims or biospira are the ones who risk killing coral (at least maybe acro's). I took some KPA live ocean rock and some rock from my DT and put it in this tank to easily and quickly set up a happy place for coral.

thanks... I will try this out. I have a spare 29g i can hook up. I have tons of live rock. I am about to start my phyto and pod production soon. Everything that goes into the display will be quarantined. What did you use for lighting?

The only thing I will do different from you is I might actually have to feed the CUC. I am getting a CUC for a 95g, so there will be a lot. Just might not be enough algae growth to support a large influx over night.

 

[Lasse]

Jay already shared his massive QT experience and that losses were minimal.

Jay is a professional that have resources including veterinarians to deal with an advanced treatment protocol. You can´t compare his results with newbies possibility to handle a complex treatment with drugs. All advocates of prophylactic treatment of fish says that we elders (Me. Paul B and many other experienced reefers) methods to handle these problems is not for beginners - it needs experiences - In the same time - they recommend newbies an advanced method and use of advanced drugs that needs a lot of experiences to handle. and use experienced peoples outcome as an example of how good it is. IMO - Something is rotten in Denmark - as Hamlet state

IME - when it is reported a high diversity of outcomes with the same treatment - there is something in the handling or our chemical/biological understanding that´s wrong. in this case - the disease marine white spot caused by the parasite Cryptocaryon irritans (CI) I´m rather sure that we have not yet discovered the whole biology of this parasite and if different strains of the parasite can act in different ways. There could be a dormant stage on the fish, there could be longer surviving time in the sediment than 74 days and so on. We know that the coldwater strains can survive a least a winter in the sediment - for now it is believed that it is because of low temperature - but no one knows if there is other circumstances that can cause the same delay in hatching - like anaerobically or aerobically environments.


It is also important to understand that a pathogen and a disease caused of this pathogen is two different things. Yes - the common sense - without the pathogen you will not get the disease is true - but the other side of the coin is that you can have pathogen but not a disease caused of this patoghen


This post is interesting - because you can have different angles in order to explain this

that scopas looked perfectly fine didn't saw anything abnormal he aet also was only fish in qt he started getting sick after 2 weeks when i slowly started raising s.g. at 1.023 symptoms started showing up

The explanation that 99 % will say is that the fish had 1 parasite - you did not see it. This parasite fell of after 7 days - and hatch around 200 new parasites after 5 days - and you could suddenly see that the parasite caused a disease - indikation many white spot on the fish. And 99 % will say - lucky you that you did not drop that fish directly into your tank. My question is - if it was not a "sterile" tank without sand, decoration and other organisms should 1 parasite automatically hatch/survive enough to cause a disease?

Example 1. A new fish - without any visually spots enter a QT or DT. after 3 days develope spots in places there it was no spots 3 days before. If DT - no spots on other fish. Only two possible explanation IMO - The parasite was in the receiving tank and of a strain the newcomer was not immune against. Or - the parasite was dormant on the fish and the stress make the disease to break out. Neither of these only possible explanations is accepted today

Example 2. A newcomer is pray and dropped in a DT - No obvious signs of CI parasites. If the other fish get spots (get a disease) after approximate 4 -5 days - probably the new fish is the vector. If it get it sooner - the newcomer maybe not is the vector

The conclusion one can draw from this is that the only result that QT fans can say is that their aquarium is disease free (from marine white spot) not that they are free from the parasite - IMO

thanks... I will try this out. I have a spare 29g i can hook up. I have tons of live rock. I am about to start my phyto and pod production soon. Everything that goes into the display will be quarantined. What did you use for lighting?

The only thing I will do different from you is I might actually have to feed the CUC. I am getting a CUC for a 95g, so there will be a lot. Just might not be enough algae growth to support a large influx over night.

This is a type of observation QT and I´m good with this - one tips more only. Do all WC in the QT with help of the DT water.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Tamberav]

Jay is a professional that have resources including veterinarians to deal with an advanced treatment protocol. You can´t compare his results with newbies possibility to handle a complex treatment with drugs. All advocates of prophylactic treatment of fish says that we elders (Me. Paul B and many other experienced reefers) methods to handle these problems is not for beginners - it needs experiences - In the same time - they recommend newbies an advanced method and use of advanced drugs that needs a lot of experiences to handle. and use experienced peoples outcome as an example of how good it is. IMO - Something is rotten in Denmark - as Hamlet state

IME - when it is reported a high diversity of outcomes with the same treatment - there is something in the handling or our chemical/biological understanding that´s wrong. in this case - the disease marine white spot caused by the parasite Cryptocaryon irritans (CI) I´m rather sure that we have not yet discovered the whole biology of this parasite and if different strains of the parasite can act in different ways. There could be a dormant stage on the fish, there could be longer surviving time in the sediment than 74 days and so on. We know that the coldwater strains can survive a least a winter in the sediment - for now it is believed that it is because of low temperature - but no one knows if there is other circumstances that can cause the same delay in hatching - like anaerobically or aerobically environments.


It is also important to understand that a pathogen and a disease caused of this pathogen is two different things. Yes - the common sense - without the pathogen you will not get the disease is true - but the other side of the coin is that you can have pathogen but not a disease caused of this patoghen


This post is interesting - because you can have different angles in order to explain this

The explanation that 99 % will say is that the fish had 1 parasite - you did not see it. This parasite fell of after 7 days - and hatch around 200 new parasites after 5 days - and you could suddenly see that the parasite caused a disease - indikation many white spot on the fish. And 99 % will say - lucky you that you did not drop that fish directly into your tank. My question is - if it was not a "sterile" tank without sand, decoration and other organisms should 1 parasite automatically hatch/survive enough to cause a disease?

Example 1. A new fish - without any visually spots enter a QT or DT. after 3 days develope spots in places there it was no spots 3 days before. If DT - no spots on other fish. Only two possible explanation IMO - The parasite was in the receiving tank and of a strain the newcomer was not immune against. Or - the parasite was dormant on the fish and the stress make the disease to break out. Neither of these only possible explanations is accepted today

Example 2. A newcomer is pray and dropped in a DT - No obvious signs of CI parasites. If the other fish get spots (get a disease) after approximate 4 -5 days - probably the new fish is the vector. If it get it sooner - the newcomer maybe not is the vector

The conclusion one can draw from this is that the only result that QT fans can say is that their aquarium is disease free (from marine white spot) not that they are free from the parasite - IMO


This is a type of observation QT and I´m good with this - one tips more only. Do all WC in the QT with help of the DT water.

Sincerely Lasse

Yes. Newbies lack experience. I generally recommend they buy from a QT vender because of this. We have several in the US! Let them do the hard work for you.

1. They don't have an aged old tank so they risk losing fish if they plop them. Nor do they have experience in picking out healthy fish at a LFS. A fish covered in spots might be obvious but they don't know the subtle signs. Many I have found don't know to ask to see if the fish is eating.

2. They don't have experience with QT and many somehow find the worst ways to do it (uncycled small tank with PVC with copper and a cheap "light pink vs slightly lighter pink" test kit or even no test kit). Do you want a nurse/dr to give you drug dosage based on eyeballing it? lol

My second recommendation if they want to QT is hybrid TTM and into a cycled observation tank with bricks and natural looking hiding spots of a good size (40 breeder is affordable space for most fish).

I guess my point is... there are options. If you lack space/time, you can get ones already QT for your new shiny tank. Otherwise there are ways to QT that don't involve lots of drugs and small tanks.

Option 3 would be to stick to hardy disease resistant fish that are feeding and look good (clowns, gobies, hardy wrasse, etc) until the tank is mature (years?). Beginners lack patience though...and probably why most don't make it past 3 years in this hobby.

 

[Paul B]

Diatom filters are hardly ever used any longer for some silly reason, I think maybe they are just to simple and old school so people would rather rely on High tech chemicals, UV etc.

If you want to remove parasites, for whatever reason, run a diatom filter.
Bada Boom.......In a few minutes all "free swimming" parasites are gone.