Ich or velvet on hawk fish?

[BranchingHammer]

Hi everyone,
I purchased a hawk fish and a springer’s damsel around two weeks ago, and I put them in a 20g QT tank with a sponge and power filter. There is also a power head, PVC pipe elements, chaeto, other sponges for bio media, and ceramic bio media in the tank. They ate fine for the first week. I then left for vacation for a week, and a tank sitter fed them three times a day. Apparently they were eating the mysis shrimp very well. I came back from vacation last night and noticed this morning that the hawk fish had white spots hanging off of him. They are pretty noticeable and 3D looking, not just spots on the skin. I have attached pictures of the hawk fish to find out whether this is ich or velvet. I am planning on giving both fish a freshwater bath tonight for a bit of relief. I have copper power, but I need to purchase a Hanna copper test kit still. Is the recommended test kit the high range Hanna colorimeter? I do not see obvious signs of infection on the damsel yet, but I assume that I will shortly. Please advise me on treatment, @Jay Hemdal . Thank you!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

True velvet is actually pretty rare - the primary symptom with that is rapid breathing. I don't actually see any clear ich spots either. The first image shows two irregular white spots on the dorsal that don't seem round enough to be ich. Could just be mucus, or the start of Lymphocystis. I do see some minor exophthalmos/popeye in the fish, not sure what is causing that.

That said, you need to treat new fish with copper anyway. I usually wait 72 hours after acquiring a fish and then start copper, so you are getting a bit of a late start - that can allow disease issues to get a head start on you.

Jay

 

[BranchingHammer]

True velvet is actually pretty rare - the primary symptom with that is rapid breathing. I don't actually see any clear ich spots either. The first image shows two irregular white spots on the dorsal that don't seem round enough to be ich. Could just be mucus, or the start of Lymphocystis. I do see some minor exophthalmos/popeye in the fish, not sure what is causing that.

That said, you need to treat new fish with copper anyway. I usually wait 72 hours after acquiring a fish and then start copper, so you are getting a bit of a late start - that can allow disease issues to get a head start on you.

Jay

There are also white spots on/around the gills. Would you recommend the freshwater bath? I can buy the API copper test at my LFS today, but it is less accurate. I could slowly raise the levels until I received the Hanna checker from BRS on Thursday or later? What do you suggest?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

In the third photo down, I can see some white crud on the gills. That isn't ich either - mucus or Lymphocystis as well. I don't see a need for a FW dip right now. I presume the fish are still feeding well and not breathing fast?

You could start the copper dose if you know your tank's exact water volume (not its rated capacity). Dosing Copper Power to the label instructions, to the exact water volume works out pretty well.

Oh - and are you monitoring the ammonia level? That is important to do in the QT like this.

jay

 

[BranchingHammer]

Hi Jay,
I have a seachem ammonia badge on the tank, so I have not been testing for Ammonia. My old test kit is expired, so I will pick up a new one tomorrow. I have been adding a maintenance dose of nitrifying bacteria daily to mitigate ammonia issues, however. I will order the copper Hanna checker tonight from BRS. I don’t know my tanks exact water volume, but could I start with a quarter or a half of the recommended dosage for my “20 gallon“ tank, and slowly raise it once I can accurately measure copper?

The fish is still eating well, but how do you classify ”breathing fast?” I can take a video tomorrow of him breathing if that works?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The nitrifying bacteria that you are adding will help. Yes, taking your copper up in stages, using a Hanna Checker works pretty well if you don't know the exact volume of the tank. Rapid breathing in most fish is above 100 gill beats per minuter (count for 1`5 seconds and multiply by four and average a few counts for accuracy).

Jay

 

[BranchingHammer]

Hi Jay,
His spots seem to be getting slightly worse, and his breathing is around 180 Gill beats per minute. He might have been scared because I had to get a little close to the tank in order to see his gills beating, and he jumped around a little in response.

Would you suggest a water change and then copper? Or just copper immediately? I also have metronidazole and praziquantel in the form of API general cure, and seachem focus polymer/antibiotic. I can purchase seachem kanaplex as well with my order? Any other medications I’ll need?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi Jay,
His spots seem to be getting slightly worse, and his breathing is around 180 Gill beats per minute. He might have been scared because I had to get a little close to the tank in order to see his gills beating, and he jumped around a little in response.

Would you suggest a water change and then copper? Or just copper immediately? I also have metronidazole and praziquantel in the form of API general cure, and seachem focus polymer/antibiotic. I can purchase seachem kanaplex as well with my order? Any other medications I’ll need?

I would do a water change for added safety, then dose with copper. Try to get to a full dose, but that is tough to do without a test kit. Get close to the actual tank volume by measuring the water depth, tank width and tank length in inches, multiply them together and divide by 231. Then, multiple that number by 0.85 to remove the typical 15% rock displacement. Don’t forget to add in the volume of the sump.
Jay

 

[BranchingHammer]

Hi Jay,
I just finished a 20% water change. I will use your numbers to do a dose of copper on the tank tonight. I removed the chaeto so that it doesn't die off with the medication. I also tested ammonia, and it was zero. His popeye in his left eye seems to be worsening as well. Will the copper treat his popeye as well or should I pick up an antibiotic tomorrow? Also, other than not adding prime, are there any other special considerations that I should know of when running copper?

 

[BranchingHammer]

@HotRocks and #reefsquad , should I raise the copper levels to 1.0ppm overnight or less? I don't have a method to test copper until Friday when the hanna checker arrives. I can use the formula that Jay gave me to calculate total water volume and go from there. I am concerned by his popeye and heavy breathing...

 

[nereefpat]

You can drop a fish straight into 1.0 ppm without worry, in my experience. About 1 mL per gallon will get you close to 1.75 ppm Cu, which should be therapeutic, FYI.

Edit: On the popeye, I believe antibiotics can sure help with that.

 

[BranchingHammer]

I will shoot to raise the water to 1.0ppm with an estimate, and I'll err on the side of caution. One question though, since it's probably not ich, should I do copper? Maybe it's velvet because he's breathing fast? What antibiotics can I use with copper for the popeye? I'll take more pics today to give an update on his condition. Mostly concerned about the popeye/lymphocystis...

 

[nereefpat]

Looks like Jay Hemdal recommends that all fish get treated with copper. I either prophylactically treat with Cu or do TTM on all new fish.

I'm not great at ABX.

 

[BranchingHammer]

Looks like Jay Hemdal recommends that all fish get treated with copper. I either prophylactically treat with Cu or do TTM on all new fish.

I'm not great at ABX.

Ok, looks like I'll treat with copper for a month. @Jay Hemdal, what antibiotics do you recommend for the popeye during copper?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ok, looks like I'll treat with copper for a month. @Jay Hemdal, what antibiotics do you recommend for the popeye during copper?

The go to antibiotic for that is erythromycin also sold as Maracyn 1. It is never a sure thing, as many bacteria can be involved, but it does have a good track record. Just monitor ammonia when dosing it.
Jay

 

[BranchingHammer]

The go to antibiotic for that is erythromycin also sold as Maracyn 1. It is never a sure thing, as many bacteria can be involved, but it does have a good track record. Just monitor ammonia when dosing it.
Jay

Do you still recommend that I treat with copper? And can the erythromycin be used with copper?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Do you still recommend that I treat with copper? And can the erythromycin be used with copper?

Yes, you can dose both. The copper is for that rapid breathing, which can be a very serious symptom. If you post a short video I might be better able to assess the rapid breathing.
Jay

 

[BranchingHammer]

Yes, you can dose both. The copper is for that rapid breathing, which can be a very serious symptom. If you post a short video I might be better able to assess the rapid breathing.
Jay

Hi Jay,
I am going to treat the tank as a 16g tank, water volume wise. I will pick up the erythromycin today and possibly the API copper test kit. Do you know if the seachem copper multi-test is any good? I'll aim for 1.0ppm of copper (copper power) to start with, right? I just tried to feed him, and he refused food, but I'm thinking I should treat him with copper first? I'll try to get that video posted soon, as his breathing is still very fast. I also see buildup mostly around the gills which looks similar to lymphocystis. The popeye has progressed in the past few days as well. I will pick up the erythromycin now.

 

[BranchingHammer]

I also just wanted to say thank you for helping me with this situation, I've only ever treated a fish with metro and prazi before, so copper is new to me.

 

[BranchingHammer]

By the way, one of his gills can't open as freely as the other because of the buildup (lymphocystis?) on his gills. I am getting a bit worried for him.