Imbalances in 60 gallon

[Sam Landrum]

I have a 60 gallon aquarium with a corner overflow that falls into a 55 gallon sump. It goes through a felt filter sock and I have a protein skimmer in the large chamber.

I have about 75 lbs of live rock in the display tank with a less than one inch deep sand bed.i have two suspended intellegent lighting leds that have 3 watt leds.

I have a copper banded butterfly, two clownfish and I just recently added a yellow eyed kole tang. For the most part I’m happy with the outcome everyone gets along, everyone is eating. They’re are no signs of stress and everyone looks colorful and happy.(with the exception of a few small bites on the tail of my tang from the fish store :/)

I do a 30% water change every two weeks with ro/di water and reef crystals. I use a small amount of prime and a product I get called microbacter, supposedly helps establish bio filter. I match ph at8.2 and temperature at78. I dose a little bit of calcium for my one Stoney coral.


It seems like since I started adding fish the nitrite won’t go down. I cycled for two months with just the rock in the tank dissolving a piece of shrimp as an ammonia source. I don’t feel like my tank is overstocked for its size all of my fish are petty young and seem fine.

I limit feeding, clean my sand bed I can’t figure out why it won’t settle out.

These are my current parameters

Temp: 78.5
Amonnia 0.15-0.25 ppm
Nitrite. 0.5-3.0ppm
Nitrate. 50-100
HR PH. 8.1-8.3
Phosphate. 0.0
Calcium. 470
Kh. 9 dkh

Am I doing something wrong? The ocd part of me wants these parameters at zero. Advice is welcome and needed!

Thinking about adding a refugium but need to do some research

 

[Yuki Rihwa]

You having a mini cycled because you don't have enough bacteria to deal with that much bio load.
Your nitrate is way too high, FOWLR tank will need more frequent water change to keep Nitrate below 20 ppm (I used to do 3 times water change per week for fish only tank, even now I have corals and clam I still do 2 time WC per week) and your tank too young for coral so do not add them until everything under control.

 

[sbash]

How old is this tank?

I agree with the mini-cycle, assuming the initial cycle actually finished?

How long did you wait between fish?

How much and how often are you feeding?

Lastly, you are going to need to add something to consume the nitrates before you end up with a year long battle with GHA. There are several options, but the simplest is a nice macro algae and a good light in the sump usually works well.

 

[Sam Landrum]

How old is this tank?

This tank was purchased on Craigslist broken down cleaned and new live rock added about 3 And a half months ago.


I agree with the mini-cycle, assuming the initial cycle actually finished?

Tbh I probably put my two clowns in before the initial cycle had finished.

How long did you wait between fish?

1 month clownfish
2 month butterfly
31/2 months tang

How much and how often are you feeding?

I feed the clowns and butterfly once a day with just as much music as they will eat.

I’ve been doing a half sheet of seaweed for the tang every other day.

Lastly, you are going to need to add something to consume the nitrates before you end up with a year long battle with GHA. There are several options, but the simplest is a nice macro algae and a good light in the sump usually works well.

I was going put like an egg crate divider and put a few pieces of rocksome macro algae copepods etc. ive read about people keeping the sump light on at night while the display is off.

 

[Sam Landrum]

That seems like a huge amount of water changes why so many?

 

[DLHDesign]

Welcome to R2R!

When you first cycled your tank, did the nitrite and ammonia get down to 0 before you added any fish? Or have they ever reached 0?
You provided the numbers as ranges. What are you using to determine those numbers? If at-home testing, have you verified your findings by taking a water sample to you LFS and having them check it?
Have you been adding the Prime from the start of your tank - or do you only add it during a WC?

 

[Sam Landrum]

Welcome to R2R!

When you first cycled your tank, did the nitrite and ammonia get down to 0 before you added any fish? Or have they ever reached 0?
My ammonia did reach 0.0 however my nitrite was still at 0.025 and nitrate at about 20 when I added the two clowns.
You provided the numbers as ranges. What are you using to determine those numbers? If at-home testing, have you verified your findings by taking a water sample to you LFS and having them check it?
I have API Saltwater and API Master Reef Testing kits, I did ranges to represent an average of results over a 2-3 day period. Typically I have not measured outside of the parameters listed.
Have you been adding the Prime from the start of your tank - or do you only add it during a WC?

I did not use prime to start off with, I figured that the RO/DI unit would be sufficient as well as the reef crystals, however after I added the butterfly and got a spike I did some research and bought prime to keep stress down and also use in water changes for help.

I also forgot to add that I had a LTA that died a few days ago but he was removed from the tank very quickly and I performed a water change right after.

 

[DLHDesign]

Given that your nitrite never reached 0, I suspect that your cycle has never had a chance to actually finish, so the numbers you're seeing may be a result of the bio-filter on your tank not being able to keep up with all that the fish you have are producing. The relatively large water changes you are doing to keep things from going higher are a win/loss in that they are reducing undesired elements - but they are also reducing desirable bacteria. Normally this removal isn't a problem, but as your tank is still developing, every removal delays the establishment that you need.

As a first step; I would suggest reducing the feeding to a controlled quantity that's likely less than you are currently doing (you didn't provide a volume, so I can't suggest a replacement level, sorry). Reducing the feeding levels will help in reducing the strain on the bio-filter.
I'd also suggest holding off on any further water changes. The Prime you are adding is going to help keep your ammonia levels in check - though this is also a mixed bag as it will also slow the development of the bio-filter that you need. You could try reducing (or eliminating) the Prime, but not if this seems to cause any of the fish to stress out, of course.
I doubt your calcium uptake is all that much, but if you see it significantly decline you can dose that in directly (in the sump, ideally) rather than as part of your WC for the time being.
Finally; I would suggest taking a water sample to your LFS and having them check it at some point. The test kits can be finicky and sometimes are difficult to read accurately. Having someone with (conceptually) a lot of tests under their belt double-check your numbers can really help to ensure that you've got them dialed in yourself.

The death of the LTA is likely exacerbating the problem. Even a quick removal would not prevent the "death toxins" that were released, but it is certainly better than leaving it in there.

 

[Sam Landrum]

Given that your nitrite never reached 0, I suspect that your cycle has never had a chance to actually finish, so the numbers you're seeing may be a result of the bio-filter on your tank not being able to keep up with all that the fish you have are producing. The relatively large water changes you are doing to keep things from going higher are a win/loss in that they are reducing undesired elements - but they are also reducing desirable bacteria. Normally this removal isn't a problem, but as your tank is still developing, every removal delays the establishment that you need.

Ok that seems like the likely scenario here, I became slightly impatient lol

As a first step; I would suggest reducing the feeding to a controlled quantity that's likely less than you are currently doing (you didn't provide a volume, so I can't suggest a replacement level, sorry). Reducing the feeding levels will help in reducing the strain on the bio-filter.

I thaw out a half cube of Mysis in some garlic concoction from mg LFS, I can usually feed the butterfly and the two clowns and still have some left over. Whatever they don't eat I try my best to net it out of the water column. The tang will eat some of the Mysis but mainly eats off my macro algae and the seaweed.This is all a daily procedure. The seaweed is usually half eaten and then dissolves and goes into the filter.

Which leads me to another question of how often should I change out my filter sock?


I'd also suggest holding off on any further water changes. The Prime you are adding is going to help keep your ammonia levels in check - though this is also a mixed bag as it will also slow the development of the bio-filter that you need. You could try reducing (or eliminating) the Prime, but not if this seems to cause any of the fish to stress out, of course.

So is it my best bet to not do a water change for a while, keep adding prime and just try to get the fish through to the end of the cycle. Or should I still be executing a small water change every so often until that happens? Basically how do I give my cycle a kick in the pants

I doubt your calcium uptake is all that much, but if you see it significantly decline you can dose that in directly (in the sump, ideally) rather than as part of your WC for the time being.

Yes I only have the one Stoney Coral and I don't notice much of a change in my calcium at all.

Finally; I would suggest taking a water sample to your LFS and having them check it at some point. The test kits can be finicky and sometimes are difficult to read accurately. Having someone with (conceptually) a lot of tests under their belt double-check your numbers can really help to ensure that you've got them dialed in yourself.

This is a good idea and I will follow through and let you know what I find.

The death of the LTA is likely exacerbating the problem. Even a quick removal would not prevent the "death toxins" that were released, but it is certainly better than leaving it in there.

My LTA came from my established 30 gallon where he was doing poorly and being picked on, I moved him to the large tank hoping that the more adequate lighting would help him out, which it seemed to do for a while. He found a spot and perked back up and it seemed fine, then one day he disappeared under one of the rocks. He looked real small and sickly but his mouth wasn't protruding or anything. The following day he was done all of his insides were coming out of his mouth and putting noticeable waste into the water around him. I netted him out and tried to get as much of the white cloud around him out of the water. Is there anything I can do to help with lingering "Death Toxins"?

 

[DLHDesign]

Ok that seems like the likely scenario here, I became slightly impatient lol

Happens to us all. ;-)

Doesn't sound like you can reduce the feeding much. I'd suggest trying to use half as much nori, perhaps? Or drop it all together if there are enough algae sources in the tank (one fish won't need much volume).

Which leads me to another question of how often should I change out my filter sock?

The official answer is "before they get full". ;-) Which will depend upon a lot of things, making it hard to predict exactly "when". My filters, for example, are changed out every ~3 days - which is usually when they start to overflow; but my tank is very different than yours. For you, I'd suggest changing them out as often as you can reasonably do so (removing the filters will remove waste that will turn into excess ammonia, etc.). If you can see debris in the sock, then it's best to remove it for now.

Basically how do I give my cycle a kick in the pants

Most cycle procedures have you stop water changes during the development phase (when the ammonia, then nitrite, then nitrate all spike). Generally you only do a water change once nitrates are dropping (and/or hit 0 again). This indicates that the bacteria and such in the tank are developed enough to handle all the stuff it needs to handle.

For kicking the cycle in the pants, you could try something like Dr. Tim's. I've never used it myself, but I've heard others have had success with it.

Yes I only have the one Stoney Coral and I don't notice much of a change in my calcium at all.

I'd suggest you not worry about calcium dosing for now. One less thing to worry about for now. Once the tank is established, then you can sort out your calcium... and you'll need to sort out your alkalinity at the same time - the two are related. But that's for later...

Is there anything I can do to help with lingering "Death Toxins"?

Not that isn't included in the above, that I know about. I wouldn't stress over this; it's just part of the larger picture and not something (at this point) to specifically worry about. You did everything you could already (remove everything you could and do a WC).

At this point, the general idea for you would be to monitor your key nutrient levels (ammonia and nitrite chief among them) and react based on what they are doing. At the least, you should be doing daily tests of these two chemicals until they register 0 for a few days in a row - two tests a day would not be unfounded given that you have fish to support. If you see them spiking (not simply fluctuating, but actually spiking up), find ways to manually remove/knock down nutrient sources (filter socks, Prime, WC's if needed, etc.). If not spiking and reasonably within safe limits, best to just let the tank be.

 

[Sam Landrum]

Thank you for all of your advice it has been super helpful, I guess I'm just going to closely monitor and try to keep my fish alive. That is my main worry is that if I stop water changes and let it cycle out that it will kill my fish :/

 

[Sam Landrum]

Also perhaps you can dispel this myth for me. Everyone has told me not to change out my filter socks because bacteria are in there and if I change them out my cycle will start over.

 

[DLHDesign]

Fair concern. You can certainly continue with them - and they may, in fact, be your best bet. Test, test, and then test again. If anything gets where you aren't comfortable and nothing else seems to work; do a WC.

Everyone has told me not to change out my filter socks because bacteria are in there and if I change them out my cycle will start over.

Your filter socks DO have bacteria in them, yes. But then - so does practically everywhere in your tank. Normally you would want to leave the socks in throughout the cycle as you don't want to remove the nutrient source that the bacteria in your tank need to normalize itself. In effect; in "normal" conditions, the socks are a beneficial food source. But in said "normal conditions", there are no fish in the tank during the phase in question. As you have those fish - and are feeding them, and they are pooping out nutrients - the need for a nutrient source is not a problem. Your problem is in that you can't allow those nutrients to do whatever they want (which is the "normal" method) - you need to get them to grow, but not get out of control. It's a fine line to walk...
Certainly you can leave the filter socks in - until your testing shows the numbers growing to unsafe levels. Then you would need to pull them ASAP. In other words - for you - it's another "lever" you can use in the machine of controlling the nutrient levels in your tank. I'd personally remove filter socks before I tried a WC in the case of a nutrient spike, but either (or both) are viable attempts at a solution since both remove the source of the problem.