Increased consumption

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

So I have been overall pretty happy with my new system. I consolidated 2 systems, 1 >5 years old and the other was about 18 months. Added TBS sand and rock both systems before we’re about 180g total, I’ll be just around 650 when I swap out the frag tank in two weeks.

I’ve added a TON of sps, mostly acro. Growth is great color is solid (all this for me by my standards, which arguable if you look at my ex’s you would say are low). I’ve stepped my lighting and flow up 10x to anything I was use to in the past, so it’s like holding on to a good ride.

2 months ago I was dosing roughly about 250mil of Alk and CA. 4 gallons of kalk and my CARX was 60 mil at 6.70.

Today just to keep up I am at 450 Alk, 375 CA 4g Kalk and my CARX is pushing 100mil at 6.4.

I also dose 25 mil A & K and 14 mil of amino acids. I have not raised these as I have had to increase demand. If I was putting A&K in my 2 part, I automatically would be keeping up. Should I be increasing these? And, if so, by how much? Or, should I wait for an ICP that illustrates red vs green for the elements that A&K represent? The problem with that I see if that, I doubt consumption would be equal across all elements touched by A&K. Is there a bad thing to bump it up 25%? What are the clues of trace overdosing?

I do a monthly ICPMS, mostly in the green, but Andre’s tool has me typically correct 5-7 elements to get them higher. I do dose fluoride and manganese, those two I base on my ICP and what the correction tells me to do( fluoride / 30 )

Thoughts?

 

[rishma]

I’m not completely clear on the question, sorry if I missed it. If increasing A and K will help address what the ICP says is low, then that seems like a reasonable idea. If growth and color are good, seems like you don’t have a problem to solve?

Manganese typically consumed quickly so it’s good to add it though I don’t know if you can really tune a dose based on ICP

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

I’m not completely clear on the question, sorry if I missed it. If increasing A and K will help address what the ICP says is low, then that seems like a reasonable idea. If growth and color are good, seems like you don’t have a problem to solve?

Manganese typically consumed quickly so it’s good to add it though I don’t know if you can really tune a dose based on ICP

I restated the question but - the scenario is I’ve been bumped up my dosing amounts regarding major elements substantially but have not increased trace or amino. ICPs are mostly green, but below moonshiner levels. I’d like to increase my A&K dosing amounts, but am unsure if I show, how much and what are the signs of an overdose.

Aminos is a lesser concern then trace.

 

[rishma]

I restated the question but - the scenario is I’ve been bumped up my dosing amounts regarding major elements substantially but have not increased trace or amino. ICPs are mostly green, but below moonshiner levels. I’d like to increase my A&K dosing amounts, but am unsure if I show, how much and what are the signs of an overdose.

Aminos is a lesser concern then trace.

Since you are doing frequent ICP I think you’re in a particularly safe position to increase the dose. Randy typically advises people to dosing per the bottle instructions and observe the tank for signs. Seems like good advice here, and you have the added benefit of a somewhat quantitative view through ICP results. If I recall the A & K bottles have a max recommended dose you can use as a guide.

It may be possible to get more specific dose recommendations based on ICP levels and knowledge of the A & K concentrations, but in my opinion I’d just try increasing the dose a bit a see what happens because I think there is very little risk.

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

Thanks. I’m 7 mil from their ceiling. I am thinking I’ll take it to their max dos of 2 mil per gallon. Once I start seeing red marks on my ICP, I’m guessing I’ll have to live on the wild side and increase it further.

What are signs of putting too much trace in a tank?

 

[rishma]

What are signs of putting too much trace in a tank?

I really have no idea so interested in what others say. I am not even sure we know what is too high in most cases. There are some scientific studies but usually are looking at extremes from pollution.

The ranges shown for ICP are often no better than an opinion of the vendor. If you are using Oceamo, I’d give it a little more credence than the others but still likely not definitive. I see a lot of posts where people are alarmed because they are extremely high based on the vendor chart and Randy almost always says don’t worry about it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The answer will certainly depend on what reaches toxic levels first, but I’d guess slow growth would be an early sign, albeit very hard to know if that’s why. Poor expansion is likely another.

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

If I suddenly post pictures of a reef resembling this, we will know why :)

 

[DanyL]

Something you might want to take into account (unless you simply didn’t mention it) - when using balling, you are destabilizing the ionic balance.

Tropics A & K only replenish the consumable trace elements, but do not include those that need to be added to ionically balance the system.

For this, you will either need to use a trace elements system that takes it into account (like Red Sea’s for example), or dose Nacl-free salt (Tropic Marin’s Classic Balling part C).

 

[rishma]

Something you might want to take into account (unless you simply didn’t mention it) - when using balling, you are destabilizing the ionic balance.

Tropics A & K only replenish the consumable trace elements, but do not include those that need to be added to ionically balance the system.

For this, you will either need to use a trace elements system that takes it into account (like Red Sea’s for example), or dose Nacl-free salt (Tropic Marin’s Classic Balling part C).

Part C isn’t meant as a trace edition but does help with ionic balance.

I don’t think there is any issue using A&K with balling.

 

[Pod_01]

when using balling, you are destabilizing the ionic balance.

Bit confused by the statement!!!

Original Balling method includes Part A (calcium), Part B (Alk) and Part C (maintain ionic balance).

Balling systems was developed by Hans-Werner Balling, I am not aware that he developed a system that did not maintain ionic balance. Maybe he will fill in the history @Hans-Werner …

There are systems that state Balling in the name but do not maintain ionic balance…

Tropic Marin A and K elements replaces trace elements that are consumed by the reef tank, corals , invertebrates etc… This is not intended to maintain ionic balance…

 

[DanyL]

Part C isn’t meant as a trace edition but does help with ionic balance.

I don’t think there is any issue using A&K with balling.

I think my earlier reply may have been a bit unclear.

A & K are supposed to cover only consumable traces.
Part C is supposed to fix ionic balance (compensates for elevated NaCl, which is the byproduct of dosing Sodium Bi/Carbonate and Calcium Chloride).

They should be used together when using a 2/3 part (or alternatively, use traces that cover both).

When using AFR for example, A&K alone are enough, because it doesn’t destabilize the ionic balance.

Bit confused by the statement!!!

Original Balling method includes Part A (calcium), Part B (Alk) and Part C (maintain ionic balance).

Balling systems was developed by Hans-Werner Balling, I am not aware that he developed a system that did not maintain ionic balance. Maybe he will fill in the history @Hans-Werner …

There are systems that state Balling in the name but do not maintain ionic balance…

Tropic Marin A and K elements replaces trace elements that are consumed by the reef tank, corals , invertebrates etc… This is not intended to maintain ionic balance…

You are correct, I unintentionally wrote balling instead of 2/3 part.
Sorry for the confusion.

Where I live “balling” is referred as to any 2/3-part method, while “Classic Balling” or Tropic Marin’s balling are referred to the actual original Hans-Werner version, which takes into consideration ionic balance with Nacl free salt.

As for A&K and Part C usage - I stay corrected. My original statement explained this very distinction between them.

If OP is only using A&K - his trace elements could be skewed due to ionic imbalance created by the 2 part he is using, rather than a low dosage of A&K.

 

[Pod_01]

If OP is only using A&K - his trace elements could be skewed due to ionic imbalance created by the 2 part he is using, rather than a low dosage of A&K.

OP appears to be using Kalk and the benefit of Kalk is it only adds Alk and Calcium so there is no impact on ionic balance.
OP is also using CarX reactor and this adds Calcium, Alk and depending on the source of the rubble it may also add trace elements. Again no impact on ionic balance.
AFR is another system that has no impact on ionic balance.

Interesting information on the balling vs. Balling interpretation/usage.
Odd to call a system “balling” if it does not provide ionic balance.

My original comment was aimed at this

when using balling, you are destabilizing the ionic balance.

balling and destabilizing ionic balance in the same sentence just looks wrong…

 

[DanyL]

OP appears to be using Kalk and the benefit of Kalk is it only adds Alk and Calcium so there is no impact on ionic balance.
OP is also using CarX reactor and this adds Calcium, Alk and depending on the source of the rubble it may also add trace elements. Again no impact on ionic balance.
AFR is another system that has no impact on ionic balance.

He’s clearly dosing Alk and Ca separately, in addition to kalk and Carx.
No mention of NaCl free salt.

2 months ago I was dosing roughly about 250mil of Alk and CA. 4 gallons of kalk and my CARX was 60 mil at 6.70.

Today just to keep up I am at 450 Alk, 375 CA 4g Kalk and my CARX is pushing 100mil at 6.4.

Interesting information on the balling vs. Balling interpretation/usage.
Odd to call a system “balling” if it does not provide ionic balance.

My original comment was aimed at this
balling and destabilizing ionic balance in the same sentence just looks wrong…

Not at all, actually.
Because when the balling method was popularized around the world, Tropic Marin’s products weren’t accessible, and NaCl free salt was hard to get.

But still, people took his paper and started assembling a DIY balling version, based on Magnesium Chloride + Magnesium Sulfate, and some added Potassium as well, and “Balling” became a synonym to a 2/3 part method, while the original balling was referred to as either “Tropic Marin Balling” “Balling with NaCl Free salt”, “Orignal Balling” and later on “Classic Balling”.

The main change between previous approaches was the fact that he nailed the ease of usability in addition to the ionic balance by making the Alk and Ca equal in dosage while preserving the correct consumption ratio between them.

 

[Pod_01]

He’s clearly dosing Alk and Ca separately, in addition to kalk and Carx.
No mention of NaCl free salt.

Yup correct, I completely missed that part.

That is interesting combination,

Today just to keep up I am at 450 Alk, 375 CA 4g Kalk and my CARX is pushing 100mil at 6.4.

Correct to suspect that may lead to ionic imbalance. Maybe there are large water changes involved…

I tried system that didn’t maintain ionic balance and the end results was not so good.

Thank you for the insight into the Balling/balling development.

I knew from online sources that Hans-Werner published the method in 1994 but he joined TM in 2001. It is during this time alternative methods got implemented… Some not so great copies…

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

Something you might want to take into account (unless you simply didn’t mention it) - when using balling, you are destabilizing the ionic balance.

Tropics A & K only replenish the consumable trace elements, but do not include those that need to be added to ionically balance the system.

For this, you will either need to use a trace elements system that takes it into account (like Red Sea’s for example), or dose Nacl-free salt (Tropic Marin’s Classic Balling part C).

I’m dosing 400 mil of part C or equal to my Ca. But I am wondering if it should be 800mil if I am dosing 400+400(rough daily dosing amounts)? I’ve been doing Part C for a couple years now. Perhaps this is why I don’t get salinity creep? I’m buying a commercial size CARX, and hope to cut back a bunch of 2 part, but, I still want to continue to dose some sodium hydroxide for PH benefit.

 

[DanyL]

Correct to suspect that may lead to ionic imbalance. Maybe there are large water changes involved…

I tried system that didn’t maintain ionic balance and the end results was not so good.

Yup, I’ve seen too many fall for this mistake and can’t make sense of their ICP tests results afterwards, hence why I questioned it here.

Thank you for the insight into the Balling/balling development.

I knew from online sources that Hans-Werner published the method in 1994 but he joined TM in 2001. It is during this time alternative methods got implemented… Some not so great copies…

It was still in the early days of the internet, and things took a while to spread back then - so it wasn’t until around 2005-2006 that it really started gaining traction globally, at least from my perspective (I started approx a couple of years later).

Around the same time, nano reefs also began to rise, something that had previously been considered impossible, but was proven achievable to some extent with weekly water changes. Given the lack of space for CaRX (which was still dominant back than) in such small systems, reefers began experimenting with and adapting the Balling method in masses - whether it was the original (for those who had access), or some variation of the DIY version, which was more easily obtainable for many (me included).

I still remember debates on a local forum around that time about Balling vs. CaRX. Many of the experts back then assumed you wouldn’t be able to keep alk stable enough for SPS, since it didn’t offer the same consistent adjustments that CaRX did.

I’m dosing 400 mil of part C or equal to my Ca. But I am wondering if it should be 800mil if I am dosing 400+400(rough daily dosing amounts)? I’ve been doing Part C for a couple years now. Perhaps this is why I don’t get salinity creep? I’m buying a commercial size CARX, and hope to cut back a bunch of 2 part, but, I still want to continue to dose some sodium hydroxide for PH benefit.

All 3 parts of Balling should be dosed in equal amounts, so you were doing it properly.

This also means that the discrepancy you see in your ICP tests likely stems from a low dosage of A&K, and probably even more so now when the consumption rate increased.

That being said, I don’t tend to change my trace dosage amount without an ICP test, simply because an increase in Alk/Ca consumption doesn’t necessarily mean a linear increase in trace consumption.
Also, I personally always prefer to keep my traces on the lower end of the range, because usually an overdose is worse than a deficiency and is also harder to deal with.

Salinity creep should occour regardless of your usage of part C, as it doesn’t remove the byproduct NaCl, but only increase the rest of the elements in the same ratio - meaning your water slowly becomes more salty.

However, you need to dose quite large amounts compared to the total system size to even begin to detect it, especially if you do water changes, but even without them - you have equipment like skimmers and auto testers that pull saltwater from the tank daily, which slightly offset this as well.

For me, I started noticing a very slight increase in salinity at the end of the week when I reached around 500ml per day on a 206g system, and when I dose around 700-800ml (when the system is overgrown) it becomes noticeable a bit earlier (mid-week).

I think increasing your CarX is a solid move, there is no good reason to use 3 different methods at the same time.

And I also agree that you could easily consolidate your Baling + kalk dosing by replacing the Sodium Bicarobnate with Hydroxide, it will be much easier to handle given the higher concentration and you wouldn’t be limited by evaporation.

That being said - unless you significantly decrease the usage of Balling, it may spike your PH way above your target. So I would either consider to first switch over to Carbonate and see if that’s enough and mix it with a bit of Hydroxide if needed, or otherwise strategically plan to switch between dosing Bicarbonate and Hydroxide according to your PH levels through the day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m dosing 400 mil of part C or equal to my Ca. But I am wondering if it should be 800mil if I am dosing 400+400(rough daily dosing amounts)? I’ve been doing Part C for a couple years now. Perhaps this is why I don’t get salinity creep? I’m buying a commercial size CARX, and hope to cut back a bunch of 2 part, but, I still want to continue to dose some sodium hydroxide for PH benefit.

What product for alk? That determines the amount of Part C.

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

What product for alk? That determines the amount of Part C.

Your sodium hydroxide recipe. And your sodium BiCarb recipe.

When my PH reaches 8.50 my dosers switch from hydroxide to BiCarb.

 

[Miami Reef]

Your sodium hydroxide recipe. And your sodium BiCarb recipe.

When my PH reaches 8.50 my dosers switch from hydroxide to BiCarb.

As you finish a gallon of hydroxide, add 182g of Balling Part C.

As you finish a gallon of Bicarbonate, add 91g Balling Part C.

You can mix either in a gallon container.