Marine Velvet

[Susan Edwards]

This has been the worst week in all my 6 months. I've lost 7 fish in a week.
I suspect the last batch of fish around mother's day brought something in. I purchased 3 anthias and 2 barnacle blennies (haven't seen them for days. But they are hard to find anyway so am hopeful.) To cement this fear, I had also bought a yellow watchman goby for my display refugium at the same time. He lasted no more than a week or two. Wasn't acting right from the beginning, wasn't eating and wasted away. Not sure if he had velvet or not as he took longer to die. But the fact that it died in one tank, followed the the other three from same source, and some of my other fish just over 30 days later, leads me to believe these fish had something or brought something in as parameters have been pretty good except high nitrates

I did some research and believe I have Marine Velvet. this weeks loses:
1 bicolor blenny, 1 kole tang, 2 clowns--my first fish in Dec., 3 anthias
I still have
1 sleeper gold head goby, 1 scooter blenny, 2 blue-green chromis. Maybe 2 barnacle blennies

Maybe a good thing my refugium isn't plumbed to main tank yet as there are 3 damsels in there and they haven't shown any signs of illness. No, I don't have a quarantine tank and yes, I am in process of setting one one up.
A friend asked if the velvet came into my tank came from the frag tank that the corals my dau gave me were in. I don't think so as there were no fish but I don't know. Plus I'm not sure if it is plumbed into the main display or separate. If separate, then I wouldn't think so. If plumbed to main tank, they would be having issues.
Whatever the cause, it's wiping my fish out but corals doing fantastically well. I suspect the last batch of fish in may had brought the velvet in. still very bummed but trying to be positive. Maybe I can really get a handle on the algae with less nutrients...

So from what I read, I need to let the tank sit fallow for 6-8 weeks. If these four fish survive, can they stay or do I need to remove them to a separate tank and treat

Also what should I use to treat? And how? I have a 10 gal I can set up. Hve to get a lid that will work around the hob filter. Our temps are so hot right now, I don't think I need to worry about a heater. I even shut off the heater for the display refugium.

Any suggestions welcome. I'm truly bummed and heartbroken, even though I know this happens. Has to my sil many times. But it still hurts.

 

[jpcrash1]

I feel your pain. I am going through the same thing. If you can remove the fish you have left and treat ,that would be a good idea. Leave your tank empty for about 8 weeks. I lost all my when I brought in a blue tang with ich and no quarantine tank. Learn from your mistakes. Good luck!

 

[aykwm]

Did you see any signs that makes you figure out its velvet? What kind if filtration are you running, since you say sump is not plumbed to main tank yet. What are the water parametrs? Whats the level if nitrate?
Nitrate is harmful for fish, so high nitrate might be worrying. You should not have nitrate above 20 ppm, you can do water changes to bring it back.

I assume you didnt quarantine the fish before adding to quarantine, there is high possibility its a disease, but not sure if its velvet or not depending on the symptoms you observe.

 

[Susan Edwards]

@aykwm symptoms ranged from not acting in a normal manner to that fish, a coating/covering of tiny whitish spot and even difficulty of breathing. My first clue that it was about to hit a fish was fish not acting in its normal manner, followed by spots, followed by death within 2 days or less

Parameters over the last week or so averages
mg 1200-1320
ca 400-430
alk 7-8
ammonia 0
nitrites 0
no3 20-80
Phos: .05-.1

Today:
mg 13
ca 410
alk 7
ammonia 0
no3 20

high nitrates have been my plague for months, ever since a sea cuc crawled under rockwork and died. Sent me into a mini cycle, followed by huge algae bloom. Right now algae is worse as I missed some Nopox and vibrant dosing due to a family reunion here last week. Normally I'd have dropped everything to deal with any tank issues but I could not during the last 2 weeks. I've worked myself into near exhaustion as it is. From some things I've read, fish are not as affected by nitrates. Corals are. Part of the problem is feeding. The three anthias needed feeding 3-4 x's a day when I first got them. Once I saw they were eating well, I cut to twice a day. Also, I have a 30+ head of sun coral that needs daily feeding so some food also gets into tank. It opens at 11 for its meal (trained!) Oh, no amt of water changes have brought nitrates down. Once in awhile I see 20 but mostly 40-80.

the algae has gotten the worse over the last week and of course I've not had the time to spend an hour pulling. Will do today finally.

Here's what I've been doing to combat nitrates:
--Nopox since April. Not seeing much in results
--Vibrant since may. Not seeing much in results
--Biodigest/bioptim Since beg. June
--Pads of nitrate remover in sump--1 week
--phosguard bag in sump--2 weeks. Should change

I use purigen and carbon in sump, prime and stability here and there to help if nitrates hit 80. 40 is the more consistant range. Since the fish have started dying I've been using some amquel ammonia remover as a just in case.

I dose either Kent mg and ca, kent two part (alk part), or red sea ABC if my numbers are close to where I want them. I switched to Red Sea Pro Salt actually right before all this started happening. And come to think of it, algae is also much worse since changing salts. I changed because my numbers drop too low and too fast with IO. I've had more stability with the RS Pro.

8-10 gal water change weekly (53 gal total water volume), sometimes I change out 6-8 gal ever few days.
The tank is a red sea max c250 all in one. Sump in back part of tank, approx 10 gal. The tank without a sump is a 37 gal display refugium with just a canister filter. So my tank has a sump.

 

[aykwm]

The symptoms you describe defintly seems like velvet. It is fast acting disease so i recommend to remove the fish as fast as possible and start treating. Preferably in seperate hospital tank, if you dont have then no choice other than sump, but make sure no water is connected to main tank in anyway, medication will kill all inverts. I suggest you do fresh water dip for fish as soon as possible, this will remove some velvet and provide relief for fish. There are few good articles about marine velvet in the disease section, insuggest you have a look for it.

For nitrate since its in 20 range its good, i had it up to 50 for few days and some corals seemed to be stressed but recovered.

For now i think highest priority is to save rest of fish by doing fresh water dip or formalin/acriflavine and then start copper treatment (cp will not work in your case since you have anthias which is sensitive)
Again make sure copper does not reach the dt as this will kill all corals and other inverts.

 

[Susan Edwards]

I looked at my 10 gal cheapy tank. In order to set it up I'll have to buy a lid and a light and maybe another filtration system as I hated the 2 hob filters I have--noisy and saltwater spashes. Thinking it might be cheaper to buy another. Question is, the stress of catching these fish, if I can, (have a huge inaccessible cavern and the sand sifter will go underground), might make things worse. Can the tank go fallow with the survivers if they continue to survive? Will 8 weeks of no outbreak or death put me in clear? Or do they need to come out to be sure it's gone. It will take a couple days to put together a quarentine tank. I can treat them for the 20-30 days and then put them in the display refugium for the next 4 weeks as 8 weeks in a ten gal might be too stressful.

 

[Susan Edwards]

@aykwm, the sump is only 5 inches deep and as tall and wide as tank with separate channels. Won't work for fish. They'd have to come out. Sump is not below tank like most. Considering my high nitrates, all my coral are doing fantastically--best ever so they are not being bothered. Even my acros, and one was bleached completely with no polyps are coming back. So the nitrates are not bothering my tank, even my snails have produced at least 3 batches of babies (trochus) and they are all over the place.

What meds to you recommend? How long in a freshwater dip? I'll see if I can set up the 10 gal with water and an airstone until I get a better tank setup but I have to order the medications.

<cp will not work in your case since you have anthias which is sensitive>

What is cp and all my anthias died anyway. have a sand sifter, 2 chromis and a scooter blenny left. Maybe a barnacle blenny

 

[Brew12]

I looked at my 10 gal cheapy tank. In order to set it up I'll have to buy a lid and a light and maybe another filtration system as I hated the 2 hob filters I have--noisy and saltwater spashes. Thinking it might be cheaper to buy another. Question is, the stress of catching these fish, if I can, (have a huge inaccessible cavern and the sand sifter will go underground), might make things worse. Can the tank go fallow with the survivers if they continue to survive? Will 8 weeks of no outbreak or death put me in clear? Or do they need to come out to be sure it's gone. It will take a couple days to put together a quarentine tank. I can treat them for the 20-30 days and then put them in the display refugium for the next 4 weeks as 8 weeks in a ten gal might be too stressful.

Unfortunately, for a tank to be fallow it cannot have any fish in it.

So sorry you are going through this!

Lack of symptoms normally means your fish have developed a natural immunity, not that the parasite is gone. Any new fish you would add could become infected if they aren't immune. A stressing event such as a chemistry change or temperature swing could cause the immune fish to lose their immunity also.

If you can treat them in copper for 14 days and then move them to a clean tank that is just as good, and maybe better, than treating them in copper for 30 days. Just be absolutely sure you have copper at the correct level for the copper product you are using the entire time.

 

[Maritimer]

Hi, Susan - hope I can answer some of your questions and you can get started. As you've seen, Velvet works _fast_.

CP is Chloroquine Phosphate, which is available by prescription only in the U.S. Most folks use copper to treat for velvet - either ionic copper such as Seachem's Cupramine or chelated copper, such as Fritz/Mardel's Coppersafe product. (I prefer chelated.) Measure the level of copper in the tank with an appropriate test kit - Seachem's for ionic or API for chelated. The fish must be treated in QT, as both CP and copper are deadly to corals and other inverts.

You may be able to use a bottle trap to help catch some of the fish - cut the top 1/3 or so off of a plastic soda bottle, invert it and slide it back in to create a funnel pointing into the trap. Bait with their favorite food, and wait . . . The fish _will_ have to be removed for the tank (system) to be considered fallow - one fish in the system, and velvet can complete its lifecycle indefinitely. Additionally, the quarantine tank should be located a minimum of ten feet from the display system, in order to prevent aerosol transmission of the disease. (Yeah, it's a tough bugger!)

Melypr1985 created a wonderful video on freshwater dips, find it here: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/video-how-to-do-a-freshwater-dip.214/

This is a complete and concise article on velvet by Humblefish: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/tank-terror-identifying-and-treating-marine-velvet.26/

It's a lot to take in all at once, but I hope it helps you beat this bug back.

~Bruce

 

[Susan Edwards]

thanks @Maritimer I'll be going out to see what I can find locally and amazon the rest I have a tank I can use temp. with an airstone.

Plan based on information, and I did check out the article by @Humblefish

freshwater dip-will ck out the video
See if I can get CP but from what you said, might not be able to get in the US. If not I'll try the chelated copper and order a copper test kit.
I'll fill the temp 10 gal with fresh RO water with the salts and add fish. I'll get some plain sand from petsmart as 2 fish like sand and I'll just toss when done

from what I read of Humblefish's article, fish can go to another clean tank after 14 days or so. Should I trust my display refugium as one fish died in that tank. No signs of illness from the 3 damsels but the fish that died came from the same lfs as the anthias? If answer is no, I can use the temp 10 gal with airstones and no lights or heater as my display refugium maintains around 76-77 which close to house temps. And then move them to a clean 10 gal with lights and filter for the rest of the 8 weeks. Because I've had ick, should the fallow period be longer?

 

[Susan Edwards]

For the bath after freshwater dip, I found Ruby's: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003TN17P2/ref=crt_ewc_img_dp_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1MY3I1N8E5O8 This says it can be used in tank. but I'm assuming I should be doing just a bath. How much water is good for a bath? A gal? And is this the right stuff. If not I'll go with the fritz mardels coppersafe unless advised otherwise

This is what I found for cp: https://www.amazon.com/New-Life-Spe...8761521&sr=1-1&keywords=chloroquine+phosphate

Also found an antibiotic which I assume I use in the water with the cp or copper

For the ten days do I do any water changes? I'll have 4 fish if I can get set up before anyone else dies. If so, I assume I hvae to keep track of what I remove so I know how much cp to add back in. If I go the cp product, then I don't need the copper or copper test kit?

 

[Humblefish]

from what I read of Humblefish's article, fish can go to another clean tank after 14 days or so. Should I trust my display refugium as one fish died in that tank. No signs of illness from the 3 damsels but the fish that died came from the same lfs as the anthias? If answer is no, I can use the temp 10 gal with airstones and no lights or heater as my display refugium maintains around 76-77 which close to house temps. And then move them to a clean 10 gal with lights and filter for the rest of the 8 weeks. Because I've had ick, should the fallow period be longer?

Transferring after only 14 days in copper or CP requires precision and allows no margin for error:

• Copper must remain within therapeutic levels for the entire 14 days. So, daily testing is a must!
• If using CP, it must be pharmaceutical grade and the QT should be as sterile as possible to avoid degradation.
• On Day 14, transfer the fish to a non-medicated holding tank at least 10 feet away from the QT.
• DO NOT reuse ANYTHING from the QT for the holding tank; only transfer the fish. The original QT is still technically infected with unhatched tomonts on the glass.

The fish should be ich or velvet free following the transfer, because any trophonts will have dropped off the fish by then. The presence of copper/CP will shield your fish from reinfection and any unhatched tomonts will be left behind in the original treatment tank.

 

[Susan Edwards]

I found a 5 gal tank that I think will work for a qt. that has a built in filter area and leds. I am also assuming glass is best, that acylic might not stealize between uses as well? It's 16 tall by 12x12. Small but I need a bit smaller. Hoping it would be good for short stays or coral qt.

 

[Humblefish]

For the bath after freshwater dip, I found Ruby's: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003TN17P2/ref=crt_ewc_img_dp_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1MY3I1N8E5O8 This says it can be used in tank. but I'm assuming I should be doing just a bath. How much water is good for a bath? A gal? And is this the right stuff. If not I'll go with the fritz mardels coppersafe unless advised otherwise

Give the fish a bath using Rally for 90 mins just before placing into a QT with copper. Dosage is 2/3 teaspoon per gal; however 1 teaspoon per gal won't hurt the fish.

More info: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/acriflavine.282887/

This is what I found for cp: https://www.amazon.com/New-Life-Spe...8761521&sr=1-1&keywords=chloroquine+phosphate

The purity of the NLS product cannot be trusted. Only use pharmaceutical grade 99% pure CP: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/

Also found an antibiotic which I assume I use in the water with the cp or copper

Any of these can be combined with CP or copper: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/antibiotics.283711/

For the ten days do I do any water changes? I'll have 4 fish if I can get set up before anyone else dies. If so, I assume I hvae to keep track of what I remove so I know how much cp to add back in. If I go the cp product, then I don't need the copper or copper test kit?

Water changes may still be needed to control ammonia.

 

[Susan Edwards]

@Humblefish I'm assuming that the cp stuff I found on amazon is not pure or pharmaceutical grade. So should I go the fritz/mardel's coppersafe instead?

Am I better off just qt'ing in one tank for the full 30 days? Or in this case, the full 8 weeks before return to main display

Is it a risk to put the fish after 30 day s in my display refugium which is not plumbed together (did have one fish die there--see above)

 

[Humblefish]

Moved to fish disease forum for more views

 

[Humblefish]

@Humblefish I'm assuming that the cp stuff I found on amazon is not pure or pharmaceutical grade. So should I go the fritz/mardel's coppersafe instead?

Yes, more info on Coppersafe here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-treatment.193343/

Including test kit info: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-test-kits.257924/

Am I better off just qt'ing in one tank for the full 30 days? Or in this case, the full 8 weeks before return to main display

Is it a risk to put the fish after 30 day s in my display refugium which is not plumbed together (did have one fish die there--see above)

So long as the fish are tolerating the copper well, I would just treat for 30 days. Fallow period for ich is 76 days.

How close is the fuge to your DT?

 

[Susan Edwards]

@Humblefish thanks for moving and your time. My dau is a vet but it sounds like the cp isn't something found at a local pharmacy like walmart. If that is the case, then it sounds like it will take too long to get for my immediate needs now. Not sure if petsmart carries through their Banfield Hospital. So I will go Fritz for 30 days. None of these fish ever showed signs of ick. The tang what died did have it a few times but never back. Because of that, should it be fallow for 76 days?

The fuge is only a few feet away and at pretty close to the same level. It is open top, the red sea has a lid but I keep part of it open due to temperatures in summer and no chiller. With no fish, I think the corals and invertibre can handle higher temps than I keep for fish (76-78). I keep it cooler due to algae... That's another headache...

So based on what I'm learning, I'll get the 5 gal tank unless I find a better 10 gal that meets my needs, qt for 30 day, remove fish and steralize tank, put fish back for full 76 days unless fish can go to the fuge but sounds like not.

I very much appreciate the help and expertise

 

[Humblefish]

My dau is a vet but it sounds like the cp isn't something found at a local pharmacy like walmart.

He probably already deals with these people then, and they can supply proper CP with a Vet Rx: http://www.diamondbackdrugs.com

Maybe not for right now, but future use.

Because of that, should it be fallow for 76 days?

I would, yes. Going fallow for 76 days will starve any & all diseases out of your DT. Let's you hit the reset button on everything.

The fuge is only a few feet away and at pretty close to the same level. It is open top, the red sea has a lid but I keep part of it open due to temperatures in summer and no chiller. With no fish, I think the corals and invertibre can handle higher temps than I keep for fish (76-78). I keep it cooler due to algae... That's another headache...

Only a few feet away makes it a no-go due to aerosol transmission: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/aerosol-transmission.190292/

So, the fuge needs to be left fallow as well.

So based on what I'm learning, I'll get the 5 gal tank unless I find a better 10 gal that meets my needs, qt for 30 day, remove fish and steralize tank, put fish back for full 76 days unless fish can go to the fuge but sounds like not.

Bigger is usually better when it comes to QT, as it allows more wiggle room for things like ammonia buildup, accidentally overdosing meds, etc. We all make mistakes sooner or later.

 

[Susan Edwards]

He probably already deals with these people then, and they can supply proper CP with a Vet Rx: http://www.diamondbackdrugs.com.

Ugh, so I need to remove the three damsels in the fuge and add them to the qt tank as well? That will be fun.... fish trap for sure....Will see if I can find a 10 gal. Will acylic work or do I need glass. Getting ready to head to petsmart to see what they hve before I hit amazon