My Current QT Process

[SteveC]

Thanks for your reply Puffy. No wonder I couldn’t get my head around it.
Seems the 30 days is anecdotal. Observing after 30 days is no real way of knowing, as they may show no signs of ich.
I will definately remove to a sterile tank.
This could be why some find there copper treatment fails.
I can’t see where anyone was able to find the study on the tomonts in copper. What about CP?
Any updates on this?

Isn’t this a major flaw in QT for 30 days system?
Can some of the experts chime in?

 

[Falcon53]

Only one tank is required for 30-day copper treatment. I asked this same question in the copper treatment thread:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-treatment.193343/page-5#post-4937589

It seems that this is sufficient because most tomonts have released all their free swimmers within 30 days.

I don't want to take the risk of having the strains where the tomonts take longer than 30 days to release their swimmers, so I transfer to a new sterile tank at 14 days.

Exactly how precise do you need to be with this? I assume that 14 days means 14 days at therapeutic levels and then transfer to new tank on the 15th day. But what if you are off by a day? Does it matter that much?

 

[Brew12]

Exactly how precise do you need to be with this? I assume that 14 days means 14 days at therapeutic levels and then transfer to new tank on the 15th day. But what if you are off by a day? Does it matter that much?

Anything after 10 days will work for the transfer.

 

[HotRocks]

Anything after 10 days will work for the transfer.

Agree, the 14 days provides some insurance/wiggle room.

 

[SteveC]

Can someone answer my previous post? I’m only trying to understand this QT thing.
Regards Steve

 

[HotRocks]

Thanks for your reply Puffy. No wonder I couldn’t get my head around it.
Seems the 30 days is anecdotal. Observing after 30 days is no real way of knowing, as they may show no signs of ich.
I will definately remove to a sterile tank.
This could be why some find there copper treatment fails.
I can’t see where anyone was able to find the study on the tomonts in copper. What about CP?
Any updates on this?

Isn’t this a major flaw in QT for 30 days system?
Can some of the experts chime in?

I have treated several fish in a single tank for the 30 day duration and never had anything parasitic make it through.

I think at one point there was a paper floating around that there was evidence that tomonts exposed to copper for lengthened periods of time could become damaged and lose viability. Hence no more free swimmers being released.

The reason I switched to using multiple tanks and only treating for 14 days at the therapuetic level is because I was encountering nasty bacterial infections that would start around day 15-25.

My opinion of the reason is bacteria that was present became harmful due to the extended period of exposure time to copper. Copper is an immunosuppressant, therefore the longer a fish is kept it copper the weaker the immune system becomes.

So while they are parasite free, bacteria that they would normally overcome naturally became an issue because of the weakened immune system.

I have had far less bacterial issues since fish are only being treated for 2 weeks opposed to a month.

CP and copper act the same as far as how they work. They both kill the free swimming stage of the parasites.

 

[SteveC]

I have treated several fish in a single tank for the 30 day duration and never had anything parasitic make it through.

I think at one point there was a paper floating around that there was evidence that tomonts exposed to copper for lengthened periods of time could become damaged and lose viability. Hence no more free swimmers being released.

The reason I switched to using multiple tanks and only treating for 14 days at the therapuetic level is because I was encountering nasty bacterial infections that would start around day 15-25.

My opinion of the reason is bacteria that was present became harmful due to the extended period of exposure time to copper. Copper is an immunosuppressant, therefore the longer a fish is kept it copper the weaker the immune system becomes.

So while they are parasite free, bacteria that they would normally overcome naturally became an issue because of the weakened immune system.

I have had far less bacterial issues since fish are only being treated for 2 weeks opposed to a month.

CP and copper act the same as far as how they work. They both kill the free swimming stage of the parasites.

Thankyou Hotrocks,
I’ve been scanning threads trying to understand. I understand the free swimming stage ( Theront ) is killed by copper.
Is not the the pro tomont considered free swimming as well?

 

[HotRocks]

Simple version.
Trophonts=Attached to fish
Falls off fish becomes protomont.
Then encysts upon something hard and becomes a tomont, releasing free swimming tomites, dinospores etc looking to attach to a fish host. Then the cycle starts all over again.

This below is taken directly from @Humblefish's sticky on ich. It is a nice illustration and description of how the cycle works. Velvet is very similar, just cycles much faster and the free swimming dinospores can live for up to 16 days since they can survive using a light source without a fish host. Velvet is different since it's a dinoflagellate parasite.

Credit: Charles Raabe

1. A trophont will typically spend 3-7 days feeding on a fish, before dropping off to become a protomont.
2. The protomont crawls around for 2-18 hours, looking for a surface to encyst upon. Once it finds this, it sticks to the surface, and begins the encysting process. The parasite is now called a tomont.
3. It takes about 8-12 hours for the cyst to harden around the tomont. After this, the tomont goes into “reproductive mode” producing numerous daughter tomites. These tomites are then released into the water column as theronts. How long it takes for theronts to be released varies greatly, depending upon water temperature, which strain of ich you are dealing with, etc. The average time is 2 weeks, with 35 days usually being the maximum (see table below). However in at least one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), it took 72 days for all the theronts to be released from a group of tomonts.
4. The now “free swimming” theronts seek out fish to feed on, thereby becoming trophonts, and the cycle starts all over again. A given strain will die out after 100 generations or so. Given the average life cycle of ich is 2 weeks, this could take almost 4 years (on average).

 

[SteveC]

Simple version.
Trophonts=Attached to fish
Falls off fish becomes protomont.
Then encysts upon something hard and becomes a tomont, releasing free swimming tomites, dinospores etc looking to attach to a fish host. Then the cycle starts all over again.

This below is taken directly from @Humblefish's sticky on ich. It is a nice illustration and description of how the cycle works. Velvet is very similar, just cycles much faster and the free swimming dinospores can live for up to 16 days since they can survive using a light source without a fish host. Velvet is different since it's a dinoflagellate parasite.

Credit: Charles Raabe

1. A trophont will typically spend 3-7 days feeding on a fish, before dropping off to become a protomont.
2. The protomont crawls around for 2-18 hours, looking for a surface to encyst upon. Once it finds this, it sticks to the surface, and begins the encysting process. The parasite is now called a tomont.
3. It takes about 8-12 hours for the cyst to harden around the tomont. After this, the tomont goes into “reproductive mode” producing numerous daughter tomites. These tomites are then released into the water column as theronts. How long it takes for theronts to be released varies greatly, depending upon water temperature, which strain of ich you are dealing with, etc. The average time is 2 weeks, with 35 days usually being the maximum (see table below). However in at least one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), it took 72 days for all the theronts to be released from a group of tomonts.
4. The now “free swimming” theronts seek out fish to feed on, thereby becoming trophonts, and the cycle starts all over again. A given strain will die out after 100 generations or so. Given the average life cycle of ich is 2 weeks, this could take almost 4 years (on average).

ok so when the trophont falls off the fish and then as a protomont can copper kill it?

 

[HotRocks]

ok so when the trophont falls off the fish and then as a protomont can copper kill it?

No, it only kills the stage released from a tomont seeking a fish to host.

So basically copper and CP create a shield for the fish as when the free swimmers are released from the tomont they explode instantly.

That is why it's important to maintain therapeutic levels during treatment to be sure the fish aren't re-infected.

 

[SteveC]

No, it only kills the stage released from a tomont seeking a fish to host.

So basically copper and CP create a shield for the fish as when the free swimmers are released from the tomont they explode instantly.

That is why it's important to maintain therapeutic levels during treatment to be sure the fish aren't re-infected.

Thankyou for clearing that up for me, i appreciate you taking the time to answer something you’ve probably done a thousand times

 

[SteveC]

Thankyou for clearing that up for me, i appreciate you taking the time to answer something you’ve probably done a thousand times

Just to add to my confusion, HumbleFishes chart above refers to the Trophonts falling off the fish as “ A Free Swimming Stage “.
So not all free swimming stages are killed by the copper. Only the theront part of the free swimming stage.
Everything I read quotes killing the free swimming stage...... no wonder I got confused.

I’ll go with your advice Hotrocks, as otherwise tomonts can’t be formed.

 

[MnFish1]

Thankyou Hotrocks,
I’ve been scanning threads trying to understand. I understand the free swimming stage ( Theront ) is killed by copper.
Is not the the pro tomont considered free swimming as well?

Just looked this up as well - the protomont is not killed by copper.
There is a question whether all of the life cycles are killed by quinine. After reading today - I'm not sure I would ever use copper. (with all due respect to others here with far more expertise than I)

 

[MnFish1]

No, it only kills the stage released from a tomont seeking a fish to host.

So basically copper and CP create a shield for the fish as when the free swimmers are released from the tomont they explode instantly.

That is why it's important to maintain therapeutic levels during treatment to be sure the fish aren't re-infected.

Here is a question - why is it that (because until today - I thought the protomonts before encysting were also killed by copper) - a 30 day copper treatment (and in many references this is too much) - is not turned into a 76 day treatment based on the original recs from burgess etc.? Are we really fooling ourselves with these methods - and instead the issues brought up by @Paul B are really more realistic - ie - that most fish start out immune to CI - and fight off the infection? i.e. - does the QT method you recommend help against velvet and others - but CI is more of a non-issue. From a biology standpoint - a 30 day copper treatment doesnt 'guarantee' success (though the odds are with it). Sorry if you've already discussed this before - I had thought that the protomonts were also killed by copper

 

[Brew12]

I think at one point there was a paper floating around that there was evidence that tomonts exposed to copper for lengthened periods of time could become damaged and lose viability. Hence no more free swimmers being released.

I was the one that mentioned it but I have never been able to find the study again to dig into exactly how the trial was conducted.

This study, that I was reminded about earlier today, touches on it a little bit in relation to Velvet.

"CHEMICAL CONTROL OF AMYLOODINIUM OCELLATUM (BROWN 1931) (DINOFLAGELLIDA) INFECTIONS: IN VITRO TESTS AND TREATMENT TRIALS WITH INFECTED FISHES" by Paperna.

He ran trials showing that Velvet tomonts appeared to be adversely effected by longer term exposure to copper. Unfortunately, his comments on this section are vague at best and still only done for 12 to 14 hours.

 

[SteveC]

Here is a question - why is it that (because until today - I thought the protomonts before encysting were also killed by copper) - a 30 day copper treatment (and in many references this is too much) - is not turned into a 76 day treatment based on the original recs from burgess etc.? Are we really fooling ourselves with these methods - and instead the issues brought up by @Paul B are really more realistic - ie - that most fish start out immune to CI - and fight off the infection? i.e. - does the QT method you recommend help against velvet and others - but CI is more of a non-issue. From a biology standpoint - a 30 day copper treatment doesnt 'guarantee' success (though the odds are with it). Sorry if you've already discussed this before - I had thought that the protomonts were also killed by copper

That was my next thought too about a single QT tank and 30 days treatment.
If the DT has got to go fallow for 76 days then the 30 day single tank QT method is totally flawed if fish are kept in the QT tank for observation with surviving tomonts, as no signs of Ich may show during the observation period. In fact the longer the observation period the higher ther chance of reinfection.
They MUST be either put directly into the DT or transferred to a sterile QT for further observation.

This then leads on to why even treat with copper if the fish just has Ich, just do TTM.

 

[Brew12]

This then leads on to why even treat with copper if the fish just has Ich, just do TTM.

I feel the answer to this is that it is much easier to do one transfer using copper for both ich and velvet as opposed to doing transfers every 2 days for 10+ days. I did TTM once and it was way too much work for my taste.

Even though I've seen studies that show tomonts are impacted by long term copper exposure, and I know of no one who has maintained copper for 30 days and not had success, I feel the 10+ days in copper with a transfer is the best for the fish and provides the hobbyist with the highest chance of success.

 

[puffy127]

The standard TTM (transfer at 72 hours) does not treat velvet. Treating with copper is less labor intensive and will treat both ich and velvet. I personally do the one transfer at 14 days. Many have done 30 days in copper in 1 QT with success over many years. Whether they were all lucky to not have that strain that lasts 72 days or copper affects tomonts is unclear at this point.

 

[puffy127]

I was the one that mentioned it but I have never been able to find the study again to dig into exactly how the trial was conducted.

This study, that I was reminded about earlier today, touches on it a little bit in relation to Velvet.

"CHEMICAL CONTROL OF AMYLOODINIUM OCELLATUM (BROWN 1931) (DINOFLAGELLIDA) INFECTIONS: IN VITRO TESTS AND TREATMENT TRIALS WITH INFECTED FISHES" by Paperna.

He ran trials showing that Velvet tomonts appeared to be adversely effected by longer term exposure to copper. Unfortunately, his comments on this section are vague at best and still only done for 12 to 14 hours.

The study says "Thus, exposure to any concentration of copper sulfate up to 10 ppm (higher concentrations were not tested), if interrupted before sporulation, did not prevent the dividing tomit from completing its sporulation and producing viable dinospores. Exposure for up to 12-24 h to concentrations of 1 ppm and over did reduce the reproductive success of the tomonts to some extent."

I read this to mean that copper didn't prevent the release of theronts and probably just reduced the numbers of theronts.

The study later states "Copper sulfate, to which most algae, including dinoflagellids, are extremely sensitive (Steeman Nielsen et al., 1969; O’Kelly, 1974; Saifullah, 1978), did not interrupt the division process in the tomonts even at the highest tested doses (10 ppm). Its toxic impact occurred only at the onset of sporulation and on the emerging dinospores. This suggests that the tomont cell wall (theta) limits entry of copper ions, whereas the cleavage of the outer theta during sporulation exposes tomits to the cytotoxic effect of the copper ions."

So the study does not really provide evidence that copper wil prevent tomonts from releasing theronts after prolonged exposure.

Also, note that these are free copper ion concentrations and not chelated copper concentrations. Free copper ion therapeutic concentrations are 0.15 - 0.20 ppm (compared to 1.75 ppm chelated copper). So the tested copper concentrations are happening at 6-66x higher concentrations (if there is a linear relationship between free copper ion and chelated copper) than what we typically use.

 

[Brew12]

So the study does not really provide evidence that copper wil prevent tomonts from releasing theronts after prolonged exposure.

Agreed. And this is why I'm not comfortable recommending or using the 30 day treatment. I only do and recommend the 10+ day treatment.

Exposure for up to 12-24 h to concentrations of 1 ppm and over did reduce the reproductive success of the tomonts to some extent."

This statement offers some hope, but it was followed with this which questions the validity of the statement.
"Dinospores were still produced in large numbers but were of low vitality, possibly due to the difficulty in complete elimination of the copper sulfate residue after the interruption of the treatment."

That left me with the possibility of 1ppm for 12 to 24 hours might damage the tomont. We can't treat with copper sulfate at that high of a level and there is no way of knowing if a lower level for a longer period of time would have any impact.
It also left me wondering what method was used to reduce copper concentration. If the vitality was impacted by residual copper sulfate I would love to know what that trace amount was suspected of being. If the tomont was not impacted and the vitality was due to residual copper sulfate, could we be treating at too high a level?

Just more questions...