My Current QT Process

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HotRocks

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@HotRocks Do use the 2 caps per 10 gallon dose when you use Spectrogram? How many doses do you do and do you do water changes between doses?
These are very vague MFG instructions for sure.

Yes, double the standard dose for Marine applications. So I use 2 caps per 10g. I do also use a cup and pull the caps apart and dump them in the cup with a little tank water and mix well then dump into tank near powerhead slowly.

I typically use 5 doses. 1 dose every other day for a 10 day total treatment.

I do always perform a 25% WC just prior to dosing. If using with copper obviously predosing the WC with copper before adding to tank then dose the tank with the spectrogram.
 

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@HotRocks im getting to the last stages of copper power treatment and honestly don’t want to screw it up at the end. You’ve got me this far. Thursday is my 30 days and my plans are to do a 50% WWC and run a copper bag to reduce copper.
My other option is to fill a same size tank with new water with all matching parameters and move the hob and the sponge filter and fish over to that tank assuming the hob and sponge have been in copper 30 days and hopefully all bad things are dead. I only have equip for one tank.

50% WC or move to new QT?
Ty for all your help and tests
 
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@Ferrell
You're welcome!

I have never had anything slip through after 30 days of full therapeutic treatment (using same tank/equipment).

I prefer to get them completely out of copper as soon as possible. Copper does inhibit the immune system, so the sooner they are completely copper free the better. Not just a 50% reduction. You can put the fish in a bucket and just drain the existing tank, fill with new SW. Or use your 2nd tank and move equipment. Either would work well.

Just FYI. Carbon is really inefficient at removing chelated forms of copper.
 

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I am frequently asked what my process is for QT, so I am just creating a thread that I can link users to for a reference.

Acclimate (float for 30-45min in bag and release) fish directly into a QT that is pre-dosed to 1.0ppm copper (copper power) upon arrival. This is much safer than drip acclimation and removes the possibility of ammonia exposure during acclimation.

I start fish off on food soaked general cure + Focus day one (continue for 14 days).
I do also keep live food on hand and feed live foods as well for the first few days until the picky eaters and others are eating frozen well.

If the tank is pre-dosed to 1.o ppm Copper, does the live food stay alive when it hits the water? What live foods do you use? Wouldn't the copper kill brine shrimp or pods as soon as they hit the tank?

I am getting everything set up, and am trying to make sure I do this right...
 
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If the tank is pre-dosed to 1.o ppm Copper, does the live food stay alive when it hits the water? What live foods do you use? Wouldn't the copper kill brine shrimp or pods as soon as they hit the tank?

I am getting everything set up, and am trying to make sure I do this right...
No, you will be fine. I use live brine and blackworms. They are eaten in seconds. You never want to put in more than can be eaten right away. I also use live mussel for certain fish and it is usually eaten within 30 min to an HR.
 

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No, you will be fine. I use live brine and blackworms. They are eaten in seconds. You never want to put in more than can be eaten right away. I also use live mussel for certain fish and it is usually eaten within 30 min to an HR.

Thanks for the rapid response!

Where are you able to get blackworms? Every vendor I have heard of says they are unable to ship due to the heat in California this summer...
 
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Well the place I buy from is out. My LFS still has them. They stay alive forever if you keep them refrigerated in a keeper and feed them plankton and change water frequently. I'd assume as we approach winter they will be shipping from California again here soon.
 
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Are Captive bread fish safe to add directly to DT without QT?
Depends, personally I QT all fish. If they are housed in a facility that sells both captive bred and wild collected, you could be playing with fire.

If you are dealing with a small breeder who has good practices it could be ok.

Personally I don't take any chances.
 

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sorry for all the question @HotRocks just want to fully understand this.
in the last step

"Last step is two rounds of Praziquantel using either GC or Prazipro. I prefer GC as it contains metronidazole as well and covers a few other diseases like Brook and uronema. This treatment is dosed into the water column to treat externally, as I have covered internal issues during copper with the food soaked meds."

what is GC? genera cure from API??or another med? I looked up and confused...
or should I stick with priziro?
 
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GC is General Cure made by API. So one or the other. Prazipro contains praziquantel as well.
 
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ok I just orderd API GC to add along with focus in there food. should I get prazipro for after the 14 days in copper when moving to new QT?
sounds like that is the best place yes?
Yes I treat with praziquantel post copper in the 2nd QT. You can use Prazipro or GC. GC does contain a slightly lower concentration of praziquantel than Prazipro. So for more sensitive fish it may be better. Overall so long as you have ample oxygenation you should be fine with either one.
 

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Yes I treat with praziquantel post copper in the 2nd QT. You can use Prazipro or GC. GC does contain a slightly lower concentration of praziquantel than Prazipro. So for more sensitive fish it may be better. Overall so long as you have ample oxygenation you should be fine with either one.

ok great I think prazipro will be the ticket if QTing sensitive fish then I will use API -GC
would a CBB be considered sensitive? I really would love one of the guys!
 
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ok great I think prazipro will be the ticket if QTing sensitive fish then I will use API -GC
would a CBB be considered sensitive? I really would love one of the guys!
Wrasse are really the only fish people report having issues with, I personally have never experienced anything negative with wrasse and either prazi or GC.
 

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Glad I came across this thread. I have been having a difficult time using TTM as a QT process; especially with flasher wrasses. I thought the TTM would be easier on the fish as copper had the issues you have discussed. However, TTM is kind of a pain switching tanks every 3 days and can be nearly impossible with my job requiring me to be away from home a few days every week. Switching tanks once after 14 days sounds quite a bit easier.

Now on to my difficulty with flasher wrasses. I have not been able to figure out what ultimately leads to their death. They will usually be ok for the first 2 transfers (I would dose prazipro on the 2nd transfer) then after the 3rd transfer the wrasses would always be laying on their side on the bottom of the tank with heavy respiration. They would attempt to possibly eat if I put food in but would shortly go right back to laying on their side. I'm fairly certain ammonia was not the issue as I used an ammonia badge with my last attempt and it didn't show dangerous levels. I'm wondering if stress is the main cause or perhaps not enough oxygen in the water (I always have an airstone running in each tank though).

So I think this method of QT is definitely worth a shot. Is there anything else to consider with flasher wrasses for QT aside from a lid obviously? They don't require sand or anything like that do they?
 
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Glad I came across this thread. I have been having a difficult time using TTM as a QT process; especially with flasher wrasses. I thought the TTM would be easier on the fish as copper had the issues you have discussed. However, TTM is kind of a pain switching tanks every 3 days and can be nearly impossible with my job requiring me to be away from home a few days every week. Switching tanks once after 14 days sounds quite a bit easier.

Now on to my difficulty with flasher wrasses. I have not been able to figure out what ultimately leads to their death. They will usually be ok for the first 2 transfers (I would dose prazipro on the 2nd transfer) then after the 3rd transfer the wrasses would always be laying on their side on the bottom of the tank with heavy respiration. They would attempt to possibly eat if I put food in but would shortly go right back to laying on their side. I'm fairly certain ammonia was not the issue as I used an ammonia badge with my last attempt and it didn't show dangerous levels. I'm wondering if stress is the main cause or perhaps not enough oxygen in the water (I always have an airstone running in each tank though).

So I think this method of QT is definitely worth a shot. Is there anything else to consider with flasher wrasses for QT aside from a lid obviously? They don't require sand or anything like that do they?

Flashers won't require sand. A couple things I picked up on from your post. When you say ammonia wasn't toxic. Any registering amount of ammonia can become toxic over time. So as soon as the badge starts to turn it's a good idea to dose prime or do a WC (during TTM) prime can't be used with copper.

Oxygenation is also key. Airstone is great. A powerhead aimed upward is even better and generates much more oxygen. I highly recommend both a powerhead heavily agitating the surface and an airstone to be used with medications of all sorts. Wrasse tend to be pretty sensitive to low oxygen and ammonia both. They are some of the most difficult fish to QT properly.

If you use a HOB filter with media during copper and dose biospira 3-5 days prior to adding fish, so long as the tank isn't overloaded you shouldn't have much of an issue with ammonia. You will have a well established biofilter that will tolerate copper.
 

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Flashers won't require sand. A couple things I picked up on from your post. When you say ammonia wasn't toxic. Any registering amount of ammonia can become toxic over time. So as soon as the badge starts to turn it's a good idea to dose prime or do a WC (during TTM) prime can't be used with copper.

Oxygenation is also key. Airstone is great. A powerhead aimed upward is even better and generates much more oxygen. I highly recommend both a powerhead heavily agitating the surface and an airstone to be used with medications of all sorts. Wrasse tend to be pretty sensitive to low oxygen and ammonia both. They are some of the most difficult fish to QT properly.

If you use a HOB filter with media during copper and dose biospira 3-5 days prior to adding fish, so long as the tank isn't overloaded you shouldn't have much of an issue with ammonia. You will have a well established biofilter that will tolerate copper.

Super helpful info thanks. I really like the sound of having a tank with a biofilter for QT as that greatly reduces the risks of ammonia.

Also I was looking at biospira and dr. tim's (I assume they are essentially the same thing). Do you add the entire contents to the QT tank? Or add enough to seed it and save the rest for the 2nd tank?
 
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I am frequently asked what my process is for QT, so I am just creating a thread that I can link users to for a reference.

On arrival day, I match salinity in QT to arriving fish or make sure it's a touch lower (Usually 1.018).

Acclimate (float for 30-45min in bag and release) fish directly into a QT that is pre-dosed to 1.0ppm copper (copper power) upon arrival. This is much safer than drip acclimation and removes the possibility of ammonia exposure during acclimation.

I start fish off on food soaked general cure + Focus day one (continue for 14 days).
I do also keep live food on hand and feed live foods as well for the first few days until the picky eaters and others are eating frozen well.

Dosage for food soaked meds:
Add 1 scoop of GC (scoop that comes with focus) + 1 scoop focus per 1 tablsespoon of prepared frozen food. I add selcon + a touch of garlic to help dissolve the meds.
*You can also use Metroplex in place of general cure, it does however only treat for intestinal parasites instead of intestinal parasites + worms*. This food can be refrigerated once medicated. Is for 3-5 days, toss and make new.

Then I spend the next three days raising cu level to 1.75ppm. increasing the level .25ppm per day. I do this by dosing half of the daily increase in the am and the other half in the pm.

At this point I am watching very closely for external symptoms of bacterial infections. If one arises or a fish prone to infection stops eating then I dose Spectogram (Kanamycin+Nitrofurazone) and continue throughout copper. You can also use Kanaplex+furan-2. The WCs are fun maintaining the therapeutic Cu level. But once you have the hang of it, it's not bad. Copper has to be pre-dosed into new SW prior to adding to tank to keep Cu level from dropping below therapeutic.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ratios-for-dosing-copper-power.385871/

Also, If you are combining ABX + Copper you need heavy agitation at the surface of the water. This can be best achieved by running a powerhead aimed upward at the surface. I also run air stone and HOB filter. The combination of these meds will deplete the water column of oxygen at a heavy rate so you have to compensate.

Keep in mind ABX are slow to work on fish. They are likely to be even slower in the presence of copper due to the weakened immune system. So the Spectogram IME has always prevented infection from worsening. Some have healed. I do also keep Sulfaplex and Neoplex handy for certain types of infections. They are safe to use with copper.

After 14 days of therapeutic copper I transfer to a 2nd sterile QT. Temp/salinity matching.

After the transfer if I have a fish that is still showing signs of infection I would run a 14 day course of NFG. If no signs of infection is present I would skip NFG.

Last step is two rounds of Praziquantel using either GC or Prazipro. I prefer GC as it contains metronidazole as well and covers a few other diseases like Brook and uronema. This treatment is dosed into the water column to treat externally, as I have covered internal issues during copper with the food soaked meds.

14 Days of observation post medications prior to transfer to DT in order to make sure the fish are healthy and disease free.

This is a very aggressive approach. I can tell you though I have improved my success rate significantly since adapting to this method. It is not bulletproof. The bottom line is you may have to changeup in the middle of the process due to unforeseen circumstances.

After the Hanna checker discovery I was getting fish through copper without much issue, but using the same tank and treating for 30 days I was losing fish in the 20-30 day range to bacterial infection. So now using multiple tanks and reducing the copper exposure time along with having the proper ABX to be used with/without copper it is what worked best for me. We are still working on tweaking it a bit. Most of this system was designed/adapted with much help of @Humblefish + @4FordFamily. To keep up with the unfortunate condition we have recently been receiving it may have to be altered as time passes.

I also preform FW dips if I see a fish scratching in copper (After 7 days at the therapeutic level) to check for flukes and/or provide temporary relief. If a fish arrives with velvet/velvet symptoms they get a FW dip as well as a 90 min Ruby Reef rally bath per @Humblefish's normal protocol.

Fish with suspected ammonia burn would receive a 30 min bath in Methalyne Blue.

My Personal Medication list:
Copper Power
API General Cure
NFG http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/NFP-products-Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html
Spectrogram http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html#spectrogram
Kanaplex
Metroplex
Neoplex
Sulfaplex
Furan-2
Methalyne Blue
Ruby Reef Rally
Formalin

This is a very helpful link by @Humblefish regarding fish meds:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/medications-to-keep-on-hand.213574/

Couple other great links regarding QT:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine.189815/unread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-dos-and-don’ts-of-quarantine.203898/unread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ammonia-control-in-a-hospital-tank.296119/

Can I put a Blue Cleaner Wrasse or are they one of those fish that can't be put in copper.
 
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