My sps die in 2 weeks

[CodyRVA]

I've had much much worse GHA than this and not had a single SPS coral perish.

So I disagree with the statement that algae will cause sps death within a two week time period, at the levels it is in this tank. GHA pretty much has to be touching the coral and growing over it to cause death in my experience. Otherwise we wouldn't have huge refugiums and algae scrubbers setup for nutrient removal. When you do go to remove the hair algae keep the lights the same, and use a tooth brush and filter socks, or do it in bucket of water change water. Leaving the lights on and manually removing speeds up the process of the algae depleting the nutrients it's feeding on IMO, your going to be scrubbing regardless, might as well scrub fewer times and remove larger quantities of algae.

I've had much much worse GHA than this and not had a single SPS coral perish.What you can run into is the GHA out competing the SPS for nutrients when you reduce feeding, which in turn causes the coral starve to death.

This is not to say that GHA can't create chemical warfare, I;m not knocking the idea of it at all, just dont think thats what this one is given my experience.

Here are my questions:
1. Are you running ATO?
(sps HATE salinity swings)

2. What is the Tanks Temp and have you checked for swings during the day with your ATI on?
(My 200 Gallon swings 1 degree with less watts per gallon than yours, anything more than 2 degrees is no good especially if the corals aren't used to it)

3. Are you losing these corals following water changes?
(If your using Red Sea Coral Pro the alkalinity spike from adding 12 DKH water to 8.2 DKH water could be causing the issue)

4. Have you left the system for extended periods of time without any sps to rule out bacterial infections, or pests?

I agree, i don't think the GHA is the direct culprit, but it's a tell tale sign that something isn't quite right. To what extent that's playing into the SPS die off, i haven't a clue, but I would definitely resolve it at the root cause so at the very least you can clean up the system and remove it from the potentials as to why the SPS aren't making it.

 

[Mattrg02]

Back when I had so much GHA that I could pull handfuls out, I also had the nicest corals. Now that I have no GHA, my corals are pale,grow slow, and I have to dose nitrates. I got rid of my sand bed and got nicer live rocks, now I have to actually add nutrients.

It's something else that it killing off the corals. If it's not a swinging parameter, it's got to be a toxin or contaminate of some sort. Maybe electrons moving through the water?

 

[BigJohnny]

Its gonna be tough to keep SPS with high phosphate and nutrients. Bio load is probably more than your system can export.

This is simply not true, look at Sanjay joshis tank, Adam from battlecorals, and many others. I do agree that numbers are likely higher than his tests however. His sps wouldn't all rtn and stn due to higher nutrients though.

 

[BigJohnny]

Have you double checked that your R/O is removing all chlorine/chloramine

Check this

 

[wranodj]

Can you post the triton results? I could not keep any SPS until Triton showed I was lacking Strontium and Iodine. Also removed carbon and GFO. Now we have growth.

 

[BigJohnny]

How often do you test alk? Regardless, I'd get another kit and double check your results.

Where do you get your sps? When you say sps do you only mean acros or have you tried others? If acros are these wild acros or aquacultured?

IMO it is a swinging parameter or bad test kit, a contaminate, stray voltage, or a pest. Do you have any pictures of your acros when they were dying?

 

[N4sty T4te]

Yeah also, how are they dying?

Just wake up one morning. STN, RTN??

Come on man, you know, all this new **** has come to light man.

 

[rck329]

How often do you test alk? Regardless, I'd get another kit and double check your results.

Where do you get your sps? When you say sps do you only mean acros or have you tried others? If acros are these wild acros or aquacultured?

x2

How are the corals dying? Getting pale or dark? STN or RTN? Other symptoms?

Calibrated refractometer lately?

I think it's always good to try to simplify when trying to solve problems. Reduce and eventually stop all dosing, GFO, GAC, organic carbon, AA's etc.
Just feed, skimmer, Ca/Alk supplements and water changes. Just take it slow.
One thing I've learned is that sometimes there's simply no magic bullet as to why you have problems (as much as we always hope there will be). So it helps to go back to a simple baseline and work from there.

 

[DSC reef]

This is simply not true, look at Sanjay joshis tank, Adam from battlecorals, and many others. I do agree that numbers are likely higher than his tests however. His sps wouldn't all rtn and stn due to higher nutrients though.

Never said it was impossible or that caused his issues? Just said it might be tougher to keep SPS. Just because pros have managed to do it doesn't mean everyone can. If that's the case we all could just slap radions on a tank and call it a day just because someone else did it.

 

[BigJohnny]

Never said it was impossible or that caused his issues? Just said it might be tougher to keep SPS. Just because pros have managed to do it doesn't mean everyone can. If that's the case we all could just slap radions on a tank and call it a day just because someone else did it.

No, nor did I say that you said that. You said, and I quote "Its gonna be tough to keep SPS with high phosphate and nutrients." Which is simply not true. I only mentioned pros because they are easily accessible examples for you to reference.

Regardless, high nutrients don't cause rampant and consistent stn/rtn, which is what OP says is occuring.

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

I've had much much worse GHA than this and not had a single SPS coral perish.

So I disagree with the statement that algae will cause sps death within a two week time period, at the levels it is in this tank. GHA pretty much has to be touching the coral and growing over it to cause death in my experience. Otherwise we wouldn't have huge refugiums and algae scrubbers setup for nutrient removal. When you do go to remove the hair algae keep the lights the same, and use a tooth brush and filter socks, or do it in bucket of water change water. Leaving the lights on and manually removing speeds up the process of the algae depleting the nutrients it's feeding on IMO, your going to be scrubbing regardless, might as well scrub fewer times and remove larger quantities of algae.

I've had much much worse GHA than this and not had a single SPS coral perish.What you can run into is the GHA out competing the SPS for nutrients when you reduce feeding, which in turn causes the coral starve to death.

This is not to say that GHA can't create chemical warfare, I;m not knocking the idea of it at all, just dont think thats what this one is given my experience.

Here are my questions:
1. Are you running ATO?
(sps HATE salinity swings)

2. What is the Tanks Temp and have you checked for swings during the day with your ATI on?
(My 200 Gallon swings 1 degree with less watts per gallon than yours, anything more than 2 degrees is no good especially if the corals aren't used to it)

3. Are you losing these corals following water changes?
(If your using Red Sea Coral Pro the alkalinity spike from adding 12 DKH water to 8.2 DKH water could be causing the issue)

4. Have you left the system for extended periods of time without any sps to rule out bacterial infections, or pests?

I don't see any GHA in those pics, do you? I see turf or something else. Different algaes have different toxins. Saying we run chaeto or scrubbers, so algae can't hurt corals is a logical fallacy.
Also, healthy SPS will not die from a 3 degrees temp swing or Alk swing either. If it was instant, maybe, but that is not what we're looking at here.
I believe that established SPS corals can adapt to high phosphate and nitrate levels over time, although they will end up with brittle skeletons.
But that a small frag that is already stressed and not established could be damaged by it. Given what we see in the pictures, I still stand by my initial assessment that it's a water quality issue.

 

[Daddy-o]

My 2 cents: Being new to reefing and not running a skimmer, my tank has had periods of high nitrates/phosphate and it didn't "instantly" kill my corals. I have also had my share of algae and the only corals that died were the ones that got smothered with gha

 

[N4sty T4te]

I don't see any GHA in those pics, do you? I see turf or something else. Different algaes have different toxins. Saying we run chaeto or scrubbers, so algae can't hurt corals is a logical fallacy.
Also, healthy SPS will not die from a 3 degrees temp swing or Alk swing either. If it was instant, maybe, but that is not what we're looking at here.
I believe that established SPS corals can adapt to high phosphate and nitrate levels over time, although they will end up with brittle skeletons.
But that a small frag that is already stressed and not established could be damaged by it. Given what we see in the pictures, I still stand by my initial assessment that it's a water quality issue.

Look man, I'm really not trying to get into a debate on this stuff because it doesn't help solve the OP's problem.

To answer your question, yes the algae present is GHA. Look at the top of the tank were there is flow and it's thicker. If were talking about "a small frag that is stressed and not established could be damaged by it in regards to nutrients." Temp and Alk swings are far more stressful than higher nutrients.

You can test it if you want. Feel free to share the results. Take two frags used to stable, low nutrient environments and throw one in a rock solid stable tank with Po4 at 0.04 and No3 at 8 PPM (as the OP stated) and another in a tank with a 3 degree temp swing, and a 3 dkh alk swing daily and see which frag does better. While your thinking about it consider what parameters the pros use. I.E. Worldwide coral keeps there Po4 at .02 and their No3 at 10 in their displays if I'm remembering correctly.

Here's what would happen with your experiment if you ever get the chance to try it. Your tank with higher nutrients is going to have better color, better PE, and better overall coral health. Your LNS tank with Constant fluctuations isn't going to thrive, and your going to lose some especially if they are wild caught or maricultured.

Sps skeletons become brittle at greater than .20 ppm phosphate, not 0.04 as the OP stated. And to be completely honest here, it really doesn't matter in our tanks. We buy "Base" Rock for a reason a dense skeleton is important for say creating the entirety of the great barrier reef. We buy " Base rock" to do that job for us.

Long story short is, I highly highly doubt this is related to Nutrients or Algae. I do agree with you it's something in the water. Which is a fairly all encompassing statement.

I'll leave you with this:
High nutrients = Browning SPS
Parameter swings = RTN or STN

 

[ajm83]

Please could you share your most recent Triton result?

 

[Rixar]

I'm curious. I'm having similar issues with good water levels. I have one stylo that's seems to be doing well for now but none of my other sps have made it more than a month. I've been reading about vibrio and wonder if I don't have that in the water causing these losses. Considering adding a uv sterilizer

I also thought, studies show that uv sterilizers are not successful against this parasite, should be treated with an antibiotic.

I've had much much worse GHA than this and not had a single SPS coral perish.

So I disagree with the statement that algae will cause sps death within a two week time period, at the levels it is in this tank. GHA pretty much has to be touching the coral and growing over it to cause death in my experience. Otherwise we wouldn't have huge refugiums and algae scrubbers setup for nutrient removal. When you do go to remove the hair algae keep the lights the same, and use a tooth brush and filter socks, or do it in bucket of water change water. Leaving the lights on and manually removing speeds up the process of the algae depleting the nutrients it's feeding on IMO, your going to be scrubbing regardless, might as well scrub fewer times and remove larger quantities of algae.

I've had much much worse GHA than this and not had a single SPS coral perish.What you can run into is the GHA out competing the SPS for nutrients when you reduce feeding, which in turn causes the coral starve to death.

This is not to say that GHA can't create chemical warfare, I;m not knocking the idea of it at all, just dont think thats what this one is given my experience.

Here are my questions:
1. Are you running ATO?
(sps HATE salinity swings)

2. What is the Tanks Temp and have you checked for swings during the day with your ATI on?
(My 200 Gallon swings 1 degree with less watts per gallon than yours, anything more than 2 degrees is no good especially if the corals aren't used to it)

3. Are you losing these corals following water changes?
(If your using Red Sea Coral Pro the alkalinity spike from adding 12 DKH water to 8.2 DKH water could be causing the issue)

4. Have you left the system for extended periods of time without any sps to rule out bacterial infections, or pests?

How often do you test alk? Regardless, I'd get another kit and double check your results.


Where do you get your sps? When you say sps do you only mean acros or have you tried others? If acros are these wild acros or aquacultured?

IMO it is a swinging parameter or bad test kit, a contaminate, stray voltage, or a pest. Do you have any pictures of your acros when they were dying?

I measure the alkalinity twice a week, usually on Sundays and Wednesdays, the values do not oscillate between 8.1 to 8.4, I have a table where I write down the results, for months kept in those numbers, one of two types of Test, a day measured with hanna and another with network is to avoid errors in the test.

My sps come from other amateurs in my area, I have the same problem in all, montiporas, acropores, seriatopores, sthiloporas, etc ...

An oscillating parameter can guarantee that it is not. I also had suspicion of the measuring equipment and I bought all the new tests, I even bought a digital refractometer.

A polluting element, I have reviewed all the equipment for rust and I have not found anything, all the appliances I use are specific to aquariums and good brand.

How can I tell if I have any electrical stress in the water?

In a few minutes I'll look in my camera, maybe have some photos

Yeah also, how are they dying?

Just wake up one morning. STN, RTN??

Come on man, you know, all this new **** has come to light man.

I have seen several ways to die according to the type of coral, acropora have arrived have started to do well for a few days and then have begun to peel their tips.

Other corals such as montipora, began to bleach until they lost the tissue, others simply release their tissue bit by bit.

x2

How are the corals dying? Getting pale or dark? STN or RTN? Other symptoms?

Calibrated refractometer lately?

I think it's always good to try to simplify when trying to solve problems. Reduce and eventually stop all dosing, GFO, GAC, organic carbon, AA's etc.
Just feed, skimmer, Ca/Alk supplements and water changes. Just take it slow.
One thing I've learned is that sometimes there's simply no magic bullet as to why you have problems (as much as we always hope there will be). So it helps to go back to a simple baseline and work from there.

Some do not have time to change their color, those that have lasted longer have been clarifying, They peel slowly, do not do it in hours, once they start it takes a week at least or even longer.
I bought a new Milwaukee digital refractometer, calibrated it before each use with osmotic water

Yes, I'm going to leave my tank alone for two months, I'll turn off the lights to eliminate the algae and re-stabilize the nutrients, I'll take the zoas and my fish to my quarantine tank.

Please could you share your most recent Triton result?

Yes, I'm going to look for it

 

[CodyRVA]

How are you acclimating these new corals? Can you elaborate on your lighting, flow and ATO setup a bit more? Have you inspected for pests at all? When one of your SPS frag(s) dies, how soon do you add another one before it dies as well?

 

[N4sty T4te]

Wow, that's a predicament for sure.

 

[Perry]

why not add an army of mexican turbos, astrealas, mexican red leg hermits, blue leg hermits, urchins, as well as other inverts? To me the algae is out competing the corals for food, likely why you have low nutrients according to your test kit results. Take down the algae, then work on balance of nutrients. If you research carbon source/ bacteria source dosing, and are able to understand it, you can also have this approach too, but again, do your research first. This approach uses a bacteria to out compete the algae for nutrients, and the carbon source becomes a food for the bacteria. Cheers

 

[Larry Stewart]

Hello.
I am a true believer that if we tamper too much with chemicals....our tanks will die. IMHO, I feel as though your system is constantly trying to recover from your last adjustment and you go throw more chemicals in your system that causes some type of shock.

Have you tried to not touch the tank for about 2 weeks? At this point if Phosphate is an issue, add rowaphos and perform water changes every other week. Also, your beneficial bacteria may not be large enough to consume the bioload waste....meaning you may need more of a rock structure to employ more beneficial organisms.

I have a 20 gallon with more fish, rocks and sand.....which I have sps and lps. I think your 50 gallon is too lean of nutrients for your new sps additions. At this point, my advice would be to leave the chemicals alone and try more live rock or maybe add a deep sand bed to your sump to create a refugium. And that's my TWO PENNIES. Please keep us all posted.

- Larry

 

[N4sty T4te]

why not add an army of mexican turbos, astrealas, mexican red leg hermits, blue leg hermits, urchins, as well as other inverts? To me the algae is out competing the corals for food, likely why you have low nutrients according to your test kit results. Take down the algae, then work on balance of nutrients. If you research carbon source/ bacteria source dosing, and are able to understand it, you can also have this approach too, but again, do your research first. This approach uses a bacteria to out compete the algae for nutrients, and the carbon source becomes a food for the bacteria. Cheers

Toothbrush. Adding CUC adds nutrients. They help keep it down, manual removal is the best approach for full nutrient export.