New Nitrifying Bacteria Experiment.

MnFish1

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Several people have been kind enough (@Coxey81 and @sixty_reefer) to do a couple experiments and comment (@Lasse, @Dan_P, @taricha) on the effects of freshwater and scrubbing live rock on nitrifying capacity (whether by bacteria, algae or both). These experiments are meant to repeat and extend those experiments.

Goals:

1. Validate (or not) the results of @Coxey81 - which showed that after freshwater scrub/rinse that the nitrifying ability of rock originally from a dark sump area in a cycled tank loses about 80% of ammonia removal after freshwater rinse and scrub.
2. Validate (or not) the results of @sixty_reefer - which showed that after freshwater soaking for multiple minutes affected the nitrifying ability as well - His rock was exposed to light, had algae, and was from a lit tank - but only lost about 50 % of ammonia removal capacity
3. Evaluate Nitrite, Nitrate as well. Evaluate changes in Phosphate during testing.
4. Is there a change in ammonia removing ability between using 'saltwater rinse and scrub' and 'freshwater rinse and scrub'.
5. EDIT - Try to determine whether the tank and equipment (without rock) contain significant nitrification ability (in the dark)

Tank Parameters:

1. 1 lb rock/gallon.
2. 78 degrees.
3. pH - constant based on where salt mixes with RODI. Using Brightwell Marine.
4. Flow via marineland powerhead.
5. Salinity at 1.026 - maintained with Top off as needed with RODI.

Experiment(s):

1. Repeat @Coxey81's experiment
Step 1. Set up tank, add rock to 1 lb (or so) per gallon, heat to 78 degrees. add powerhead. (rock has been in dark sump - high flow area for >5 years)
2. Add 4 drops Dr. Tims (per instructions - as Coxey did) - which resulted in a high ammonia level - but - according to Dr. Tim's instructions should not cause a problem.
3. See if ammonia is processed in 24 hours.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until the ammonia is processed in 24 hours. IF repeated steps are needed I PLAN (Comments?) to dose water containing 2 ppm ammonia (measured before adding to tank)
5. Hereafter is where things will change (a little) - After the tank/rock can process 2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours (rinsed tank between uses) - will do the same RINSE (BUT IN SALTWATER) as @Coxey81 - which I believe was a soak in water, followed by scrubbing and rinsing for 1-3 minutes.
6. Then - I will again check to see if 2 ppm ammonia can be processed in 24 hours. If so - I will repeat step 5 - using FRESH water (tank temp) per the same protocol.
7. If after step 5 or 6, ammonia is not processed in 24 hours, will continue every 12 hour testing until it is processed.
8. At this point - re-verify if 2 ppm ammonia can be processed.
EDIT - 9. Then remove the rock, add 2 ppm ammonia and determine how long it will take to process ammonia.

After this I think I will take some old rock covered with various 'stuff' from the lit tank - and repeat the 2 experiments above - which will hopefully document @sixty_reefer's experiment.

I am going to try to borrow a seneye if possible.

I will use API tests to measure ammonia - along with another one. I will purchase 2 separate kits - to check for any errors.

I will also measure ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH daily or 2x day depending on where we are in the experiment.

po4 will be measured at the beginning and end of each experiment.
 
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Coxey81

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Several people have been kind enough (@Coxey81 and @sixty_reefer) to do a couple experiments and comment (@Lasse, @Dan_P, @taricha) on the effects of freshwater and scrubbing live rock on nitrifying capacity (whether by bacteria, algae or both). These experiments are meant to repeat and extend those experiments.

Goals:

1. Validate (or not) the results of @Coxey81 - which showed that after freshwater scrub/rinse that the nitrifying ability of rock originally from a dark sump area in a cycled tank loses about 50% of ammonia removal after freshwater rinse.
2. Validate (or not) the results of @sixty_reefer - which showed that after freshwater soaking for multiple minutes affected the nitrifying ability as well - His rock was exposed to light, had algae, and was from a lit tank - but only lost about 20 % of ammonia removal capacity
3. Evaluate Nitrite, Nitrate as well. Evaluate changes in Phosphate during testing.
4. Is there a change in ammonia removing ability between using 'saltwater rinse and scrub' and 'freshwater rinse and scrub'.

Tank Parameters:

1. 1 lb rock/gallon.
2. 78 degrees.
3. pH - constant based on where salt mixes with RODI. Using Brightwell Marine.
4. Flow via marineland powerhead.
5. Salinity at 1.026 - maintained with Top off as needed with RODI.

Experiment(s):

1. Repeat @Coxey81's experiment
Step 1. Set up tank, add rock to 1 lb (or so) per gallon, heat to 78 degrees. add powerhead. (rock has been in dark sump - high flow area for >5 years)
2. Add 4 drops Dr. Tims (per instructions - as Coxey did) - which resulted in a high ammonia level - but - according to Dr. Tim's instructions should not cause a problem.
3. See if ammonia is processed in 24 hours.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until the ammonia is processed in 24 hours. IF repeated steps are needed I PLAN (Comments?) to dose water containing 2 ppm ammonia (measured before adding to tank)
5. Hereafter is where things will change (a little) - After the tank/rock can process 2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours (rinsed tank between uses) - will do the same RINSE (BUT IN SALTWATER) as @Coxey81 - which I believe was a soak in water, followed by scrubbing and rinsing for 1-3 minutes.
6. Then - I will again check to see if 2 ppm ammonia can be processed in 24 hours. If so - I will repeat step 5 - using FRESH water (tank temp) per the same protocol.
7. If after step 5 or 6, ammonia is not processed in 24 hours, will continue every 12 hour testing until it is processed.
8. At this point - re-verify if 2 ppm ammonia can be processed.

After this I think I will take some old rock covered with various 'stuff' from the lit tank - and repeat the 2 experiments above - which will hopefully document @sixty_reefer's experiment.

I am going to try to borrow a seneye if possible.

I will use API tests to measure ammonia - along with another one. I will purchase 2 separate kits - to check for any errors.

I will also measure ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH daily or 2x day depending on where we are in the experiment.

po4 will be measured at the beginning and end of each experiment.

Just to clarify, I had over a 80% loss of nitrification ability after rinse, scrub, 100% water change, and tank clean.

Sixty had a 55% loss after soak, scrub, 85%? Water change I believe, and tank clean. Although his tank recovered to full strength in a few days.

Also, I'm seeing very little, if any loss, on my repeat where I rinsed and scrubbed the rocks, but did not change any water or clean the tank.
 
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MnFish1

MnFish1

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Just to clarify, I had over a 80% loss of nitrification ability after rinse, scrub, 100% water change, and tank clean.

Sixty had a 55% loss after soak, scrub, 85%? Water change I believe, and tank clean. Although his tank recovered to full strength in a few days.

Also, I'm seeing very little, if any loss, on my repeat where I rinsed and scrubbed the rocks, but did not change any water or clean the tank.
Thanks - I edited that:)
 
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MnFish1

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Update: (PLEASE COMMENT)

I bought 2 x 5 gallon 'kits' that have a HOB filter, 2 heaters, 2 LED's, and 2 small adjustable powerhead for small tanks. 2 Seachem alert badges - to get a handle on free ammonia - I know - not perfect - but - I could not find a local seneye.

Here is the question. Better to run a duplicate test in parallel (i.e. 2 tanks getting the same treatment - a duplicate of the same experiment) - OR - 1 tank getting the dark sump rock and the second getting the lighted rock from the upper tank. and then repeating the experiment later? @Lasse @Dan_P @taricha @Coxey81 @sixty_reefer

Or does it make no difference.
 

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Update: (PLEASE COMMENT)

I bought 2 x 5 gallon 'kits' that have a HOB filter, 2 heaters, 2 LED's, and 2 small adjustable powerhead for small tanks. 2 Seachem alert badges - to get a handle on free ammonia - I know - not perfect - but - I could not find a local seneye.

Here is the question. Better to run a duplicate test in parallel (i.e. 2 tanks getting the same treatment - a duplicate of the same experiment) - OR - 1 tank getting the dark sump rock and the second getting the lighted rock from the upper tank. and then repeating the experiment later? @Lasse @Dan_P @taricha @Coxey81 @sixty_reefer

Or does it make no difference.
You don’t play around do you? :)

my vote is for one light one without
 

Coxey81

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I think if you are going to duplicate I would run 2 tanks at the same time with either both sump rock or both tank rock.

Just so you are sure you end up testing at the same intervals, etc.

However, the rock is going to be different in each tank. So I would try to choose it so each tank has the same amount of lbs and as similar as possible surface areas.

ETA: the reason I say this is that you want to be able to compare the times. And if you do one sump rock and a week later do another sump rock... things may come up that prevent you from testing at the same time interval.
 
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MnFish1

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You don’t play around do you? :)

my vote is for one light one without
LOL it was not expensive - just to be clear you mean - in parallel - one tank from the dark sump - kept in the dark - and one tank with the lighted tank rock - kept in the light (12 on 12 off)? as compared to repeating the dark experiment twice?
 

sixty_reefer

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LOL it was not expensive - just to be clear you mean - in parallel - one tank from the dark sump - kept in the dark - and one tank with the lighted tank rock - kept in the light (12 on 12 off)? as compared to repeating the dark experiment twice?
Yeah, either way you choose to do it, will you be giving updates?
 
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MnFish1

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Yeah, either way you choose to do it, will you be giving updates?
I will give a startup picture. And then each day perhaps. Not an every measurement update. But - Will try to make the updates follow in style - for example - a chart -

--------------- Ammonia. Nitrite. Nitrate. pH. Phosphate
Day 0 2ppm. 0. 0. 8.1. 0.05
Day 1. 0ppm. 0. 1. 8.1. 0.05

Made up numbers

not sure I want to take pictures of each vial lol. except at major events.
 

sixty_reefer

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I will give a startup picture. And then each day perhaps. Not an every measurement update. But - Will try to make the updates follow in style - for example - a chart -

--------------- Ammonia. Nitrite. Nitrate. pH. Phosphate
Day 0 2ppm. 0. 0. 8.1. 0.05
Day 1. 0ppm. 0. 1. 8.1. 0.05

Made up numbers

not sure I want to take pictures of each vial lol. except at major events.
It will be good to be able to follow it in real time. Probably why I suggest running both different ways in parallel and undertaking the same test at the same time. would be very interesting.
 
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Coxey81

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Several people have been kind enough (@Coxey81 and @sixty_reefer) to do a couple experiments and comment (@Lasse, @Dan_P, @taricha) on the effects of freshwater and scrubbing live rock on nitrifying capacity (whether by bacteria, algae or both). These experiments are meant to repeat and extend those experiments.

Goals:

1. Validate (or not) the results of @Coxey81 - which showed that after freshwater scrub/rinse that the nitrifying ability of rock originally from a dark sump area in a cycled tank loses about 80% of ammonia removal after freshwater rinse and scrub.
2. Validate (or not) the results of @sixty_reefer - which showed that after freshwater soaking for multiple minutes affected the nitrifying ability as well - His rock was exposed to light, had algae, and was from a lit tank - but only lost about 50 % of ammonia removal capacity
3. Evaluate Nitrite, Nitrate as well. Evaluate changes in Phosphate during testing.
4. Is there a change in ammonia removing ability between using 'saltwater rinse and scrub' and 'freshwater rinse and scrub'.
5. EDIT - Try to determine whether the tank and equipment (without rock) contain significant nitrification ability (in the dark)

Tank Parameters:

1. 1 lb rock/gallon.
2. 78 degrees.
3. pH - constant based on where salt mixes with RODI. Using Brightwell Marine.
4. Flow via marineland powerhead.
5. Salinity at 1.026 - maintained with Top off as needed with RODI.

Experiment(s):

1. Repeat @Coxey81's experiment
Step 1. Set up tank, add rock to 1 lb (or so) per gallon, heat to 78 degrees. add powerhead. (rock has been in dark sump - high flow area for >5 years)
2. Add 4 drops Dr. Tims (per instructions - as Coxey did) - which resulted in a high ammonia level - but - according to Dr. Tim's instructions should not cause a problem.
3. See if ammonia is processed in 24 hours.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until the ammonia is processed in 24 hours. IF repeated steps are needed I PLAN (Comments?) to dose water containing 2 ppm ammonia (measured before adding to tank)
5. Hereafter is where things will change (a little) - After the tank/rock can process 2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours (rinsed tank between uses) - will do the same RINSE (BUT IN SALTWATER) as @Coxey81 - which I believe was a soak in water, followed by scrubbing and rinsing for 1-3 minutes.
6. Then - I will again check to see if 2 ppm ammonia can be processed in 24 hours. If so - I will repeat step 5 - using FRESH water (tank temp) per the same protocol.
7. If after step 5 or 6, ammonia is not processed in 24 hours, will continue every 12 hour testing until it is processed.
8. At this point - re-verify if 2 ppm ammonia can be processed.
EDIT - 9. Then remove the rock, add 2 ppm ammonia and determine how long it will take to process ammonia.

After this I think I will take some old rock covered with various 'stuff' from the lit tank - and repeat the 2 experiments above - which will hopefully document @sixty_reefer's experiment.

I am going to try to borrow a seneye if possible.

I will use API tests to measure ammonia - along with another one. I will purchase 2 separate kits - to check for any errors.

I will also measure ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH daily or 2x day depending on where we are in the experiment.

po4 will be measured at the beginning and end of each experiment.


Sorry, just had time to read this. To clarify, I dosed 4ppm the first time, but dosed 3ppm every time afterwards until it seemed to max at processing 3ppm in 30ish hours.

If I was you, I would just skip the huge overdose I did. It wasn't intentional and I don't think it'll make much difference. I'd start with 3ppm and stick with it or start with 2 and stick with it.

Changing along the way just made it harder to compare results.

Eta: however, if you want to see if washing the tank and changing 100% of the water is what yielded my 80% loss, then I would overdose it. I just wouldnt change the dosage along the way. Pick a overdose and stick with it.
 
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MnFish1

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Sorry, just had time to read this. To clarify, I dosed 4ppm the first time, but dosed 3ppm every time afterwards until it seemed to max at processing 3ppm in 30ish hours.

If I was you, I would just skip the huge overdose I did. It wasn't intentional and I don't think it'll make much difference. I'd start with 3ppm and stick with it or start with 2 and stick with it.

Changing along the way just made it harder to compare results.

Eta: however, if you want to see if washing the tank and changing 100% of the water is what yielded my 80% loss, then I would overdose it. I just wouldnt change the dosage along the way. Pick a overdose and stick with it.
I am going to start with a 2 PPM solution into the tank - and each subsequent tank. I will not overdose it
 
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MnFish1

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Wasn't meaning you, lol. You don't have to. Numbers will be easier for everyone anyway, lol
There will still be some distrust - I will take pictures of the set up , significant measurements - etc. I will not post every 6 hours :). You're a superstar
 
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