Phosphates are outta control

[splooto]

You mention floating plants, what kind? I used to have dwarf water lettuce on some tanks. Stuff grew like crazy and I would have throw it out by the handful each week. Maybe that would help suck up some nutrients for you.

I have frogbit, duckweed, and a little bit of salvinia holding on for dear life. The problem, actually where all this stems, is that Cyano has showed up and is now killing those floaters by growing on the undersides of their roots, clumping them together, and drowning them. I would not have ever considered even testing phos if that hadn't started! I want the Cyano GONE but I know if I dont address this phos issue, all the chemiclean in the world isn't gonna do away with it for long... I tried a crypt as well but the poor guy just melted immediately :( i presume due to lack of hardness.

 

[Dan_P]

Sorry for the delayed response, I wanted to repeat the experiment again to be sure the results were consistent, and they are;

No, the tap water does not have zero phosphates, although sometimes it is higher than others, today it was a bit higher than I'd like, but this happens even when it is at it's lowest level, what is occurring is that this is somehow still continuing to rise without any further engagement on my end.

Around 9 hours ago, I put some of the tap water into a simple plastic specimen container, bear in mind that last time, I was using a Home Depot 5g bucket and had the same result, this is how much phosphates have raised.
Both of the "aged" water results are on the right, and water from the same source but right now are on the left. Seachem test and API test both indicate a rise in phosphates occurred overnight in the jar with nothing else in it. Just the plastic jar and water, I added nothing.

I just don't understand this exact aspect, I get it rising in an aquarium, I get it being high in the tap, I do NOT get it rising in two separate holding containers with nothing else in them.

Sorry if the formatting is off, I never really learned how to use forum websites, hope I did the quoting thing correctly here

This may be a test method issue. Chorine or chloramine in tap water is being reduced by one of the phosphate reagents, resulting in a low reading. When you store the tap water, the oxidizer becomes depleted and the phosphate test measures the phosphate content of the water more accurately.

 

[ScottJ]

I have frogbit, duckweed, and a little bit of salvinia holding on for dear life. The problem, actually where all this stems, is that Cyano has showed up and is now killing those floaters by growing on the undersides of their roots, clumping them together, and drowning them. I would not have ever considered even testing phos if that hadn't started! I want the Cyano GONE but I know if I dont address this phos issue, all the chemiclean in the world isn't gonna do away with it for long... I tried a crypt as well but the poor guy just melted immediately :( i presume due to lack of hardness.

Man, I didn't think anything could hurt duckweed...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry for the delayed response, I wanted to repeat the experiment again to be sure the results were consistent, and they are;

No, the tap water does not have zero phosphates, although sometimes it is higher than others, today it was a bit higher than I'd like, but this happens even when it is at it's lowest level, what is occurring is that this is somehow still continuing to rise without any further engagement on my end.

Around 9 hours ago, I put some of the tap water into a simple plastic specimen container, bear in mind that last time, I was using a Home Depot 5g bucket and had the same result, this is how much phosphates have raised.
Both of the "aged" water results are on the right, and water from the same source but right now are on the left. Seachem test and API test both indicate a rise in phosphates occurred overnight in the jar with nothing else in it. Just the plastic jar and water, I added nothing.

I just don't understand this exact aspect, I get it rising in an aquarium, I get it being high in the tap, I do NOT get it rising in two separate holding containers with nothing else in them.

Sorry if the formatting is off, I never really learned how to use forum websites, hope I did the quoting thing correctly here

Still do not think phosphate is spontaneously showing up in tap water stored in a plastic vial. Perhaps breakdown of chlorine that was interfering with the test before gets lost overnight.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

See Dan is faster today. lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have frogbit, duckweed, and a little bit of salvinia holding on for dear life. The problem, actually where all this stems, is that Cyano has showed up and is now killing those floaters by growing on the undersides of their roots, clumping them together, and drowning them. I would not have ever considered even testing phos if that hadn't started! I want the Cyano GONE but I know if I dont address this phos issue, all the chemiclean in the world isn't gonna do away with it for long... I tried a crypt as well but the poor guy just melted immediately :( i presume due to lack of hardness.

I’m confused. Are we talking about a reef tank or a freshwater tank that has cyano?

 

[ScottJ]

I’m confused. Are we talking about a reef tank or a freshwater tank that has cyano?

FW with cyano.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FW with cyano.

Ok, I don’t know what limits cyano in freshwater. In a reef tank, phosphate is not typically a driver of cyano. Organics are.

 

[splooto]

Still do not think phosphate is spontaneously showing up in tap water stored in a plastic vial. Perhaps breakdown of chlorine that was interfering with the test before gets lost overnight.

This may be a test method issue. Chorine or chloramine in tap water is being reduced by one of the phosphate reagents, resulting in a low reading. When you store the tap water, the oxidizer becomes depleted and the phosphate test measures the phosphate content of the water more accurately.

TYSM both of you! That explains a TON! It makes way way more sense for my city water to have inconsistent levels of chlorine/chloramine than it does for the phosphates to be this inconsistent. So that leaves me to know that the water being sat out overnight it the most accurate reading! Thanks again, I was DESPERATE to understand what chemically was going on to cause that result.

 

[splooto]

Ok, I don’t know what limits cyano in freshwater. In a reef tank, phosphate is not typically a driver of cyano. Organics are.

Yeah, sorry about that! I know this is primarily not for the discussion for FW tanks, but I was unable to find really anybody anywhere discussing phosphates in depth or how to manage it in the FW environment, I presume this is just due to the fact that phos plays a much bigger role in a reef tank and most FW keepers don't even consider it as a parameter worth checking (of course, like in my case, until a problem shows up)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yeah, sorry about that! I know this is primarily not for the discussion for FW tanks, but I was unable to find really anybody anywhere discussing phosphates in depth or how to manage it in the FW environment, I presume this is just due to the fact that phos plays a much bigger role in a reef tank and most FW keepers don't even consider it as a parameter worth checking (of course, like in my case, until a problem shows up)

Which may well be telling you that it may not be causing the cyano.

 

[splooto]

Which may well be telling you that it may not be causing the cyano.

I presumed this much initially, deep cleaned all my tanks but didn't see any resolution, cut the lights, moved them away from the sun, limited feeding, nothing worked. As far as I'm aware, Cyano thrives in a freshwater aquarium from light, organics, low flow, and phosphates. Once lights and organics had been properly resolved, and cyano did not self regulate, that's when I resorted to checking phos. That's when I discovered that this is possibly something entirely out of my control;

Where I live, we have a lot of lead pipes, and the government locally has funded recently the state to remove all the led pipes and replace them with copper. The cyano issues cropped up around the same time they began doing that near my neighborhood, getting worse and worse as they got closer to my house. Then I found out, it is incredibly common that pipes will be flushed with phoshphates whenever pipes are opened or changed out. That's when I decided to look into phosphates and found this whole mess. I'm sure eventually they'll have finished replacing all the pipes, but they've been doing it slowly since early autumn and they don't seem to be anywhere near to done. This makes sense unfortunately, nearly all the pipes in this state are lead, they've got a lot of work ahead of them and I presume they're flushing phos near constantly until they're completely done.

But that's just my rational behind all this, I'm mostly using circumstantial evidence and trying to see if any physical evidence (the tests) can back it up, but since I had no idea about any of this until it was an issue, I never tested my water before and don't have a clue what phos it was at before this issue cropped up, for all I know, it was always this high, and it totally could be something else entirely :// Boy howdy I hate not knowing!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley - if there is no calcium carbonate to hold the phosphate, what else in a FW aquarium would be a sink that would prevent water changes from quickly diluting?

I’m not sure what might, but I mistakenly assumed the we we talking about a reef tank.

 

[ScottJ]

I presumed this much initially, deep cleaned all my tanks but didn't see any resolution, cut the lights, moved them away from the sun, limited feeding, nothing worked. As far as I'm aware, Cyano thrives in a freshwater aquarium from light, organics, low flow, and phosphates. Once lights and organics had been properly resolved, and cyano did not self regulate, that's when I resorted to checking phos. That's when I discovered that this is possibly something entirely out of my control;

Where I live, we have a lot of lead pipes, and the government locally has funded recently the state to remove all the led pipes and replace them with copper. The cyano issues cropped up around the same time they began doing that near my neighborhood, getting worse and worse as they got closer to my house. Then I found out, it is incredibly common that pipes will be flushed with phoshphates whenever pipes are opened or changed out. That's when I decided to look into phosphates and found this whole mess. I'm sure eventually they'll have finished replacing all the pipes, but they've been doing it slowly since early autumn and they don't seem to be anywhere near to done. This makes sense unfortunately, nearly all the pipes in this state are lead, they've got a lot of work ahead of them and I presume they're flushing phos near constantly until they're completely done.

But that's just my rational behind all this, I'm mostly using circumstantial evidence and trying to see if any physical evidence (the tests) can back it up, but since I had no idea about any of this until it was an issue, I never tested my water before and don't have a clue what phos it was at before this issue cropped up, for all I know, it was always this high, and it totally could be something else entirely :// Boy howdy I hate not knowing!

Try some water changes with a few gallons of distilled water?

 

[DCR]

Not to discount the phosphate theory (10 ppm is really high although many planted tank keepers will dose to maintain several ppm), but in my experience, that thick blue green cyano can take over a freshwater tank even with low nutrients. I had to just battle through it for many months with my planted tanks - mechanically removing as much as possible. Eventually it just went away. I tend to believe that much like saltwater, you need to be patient and wait for the tank to develop a sufficient biome that out-competes the cyano for whatever it needs.

 

[tripdad]

If your city is adding phosphates then they are most likely orthophosphates and polyphosphates. Not being a chemist I wonder will your test kits even test properly in their presence. Our reef kits actually test for another form of " phosphate/ phosphorous" I believe and extrapolate the result into a "phosphate" number. Either way you should invest in an RODI setup or at least some filter cartridges with the correct filters to knock down these "phosphates" or source pure water. I also feel the only way to get rid of cyano is by outcompeting it with another organism/s.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If your city is adding phosphates then they are most likely orthophosphates and polyphosphates. Not being a chemist I wonder will your test kits even test properly in their presence. Our reef kits actually test for another form of " phosphate/ phosphorous" I believe and extrapolate the result into a "phosphate" number. Either way you should invest in an RODI setup or at least some filter cartridges with the correct filters to knock down these "phosphates" or source pure water. I also feel the only way to get rid of cyano is by outcompeting it with another organism/s.

Orthophosphate is the form all reef kits detect.

 

[Cabinetman]

I use seaklear pool phosphate remover in my reef when needed. But be careful it’s potent stuff. 9 ml over 3 days dropped my system which is 1200 gallons from .2 down to .07. You could mix a watered down mixture and drip it into a 5 micron sock with a pump feeding into it.

 

[tripdad]

Orthophosphate is the form all reef kits detect.

Good to know! I learned something today, thanks. As another question for you Randy, my understanding is that they add the orthophosphates to bind up lead and copper, and others, and the polyphosphates to bind up iron and manganese, and others. Could that binding of the iron have any effect on his plant death? Does the binding leave the phosphate and iron unavailable for the plants to use? Just curious.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Good to know! I learned something today, thanks. As another question for you Randy, my understanding is that they add the orthophosphates to bind up lead and copper, and others, and the polyphosphates to bind up iron and manganese, and others. Could that binding of the iron have any effect on his plant death? Does the binding leave the phosphate and iron unavailable for the plants to use? Just curious.

Phosphate is added as corrosion control to reduce toxic metals. High enough phosphate might limit iron. I don’t really know how good freshwater plants are at getting metals.