Pro Reef salt from Turkey

Hydrored

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Great solution, just don’t look at it. Hahaha

I like his solution, I just won’t look to buy Tropic Marin products.

Well I consider this case closed, time for me to bow out. I did what I could to help TM with solving this.

Good luck!
 

Hans-Werner

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So are you saying on your side, you have always had precipitate?
I personally don't have or have noticed this problem since I don't circulate Pro-Reef saltwater for more than a day, and I don't recommend to circulate it. No bacteria, no precipitate.

If you look exactly into the BRS testing of salt mixes, Pro-Reef also had a little of precipitate, it was just much less than in other salt brands. If you use a deeper container you will see more precipitate on the bottom, if you use an ordinary glass tank or another more shallow container you will see less precipitate.

I can't explain how you can precipitate more or less manganese from a certain concentration except bacteria, maybe you can. With bacteria most of the manganese precipitates, in fact frequently below the detection limit of the usual ICP-OES analyses. This precipitate you can find on the bottom of your mixing container. Since the concentration of manganese hasn't changed the quantity of precipitate shouldn't have changed.

I am open to any better explanation from your side.
 
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poidog

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I like his solution, I just won’t look to buy Tropic Marin products.

Well I consider this case closed, time for me to bow out. I did what I could to help TM with solving this.

Good luck!
Same here. Very disappointed with that response from Hans. No one is here trying to play the "blame game" on TM. We are all here because we like the product and want to continue using it, like it so much we pay almost double the price from other salts. Most of us are long time users of TM prodcuts before BRS was anything more than just selling 2-part and RODI units. For 15+ years I have never had an issue with TM salt (besides low iodine), NEVER ONCE. Now after all that time, we are starting experiencing first hand negative impacts with the salt and it's our fault? No, its your loyal customers trying to bring to your attention that something is not right, something different/wrong, something is getting through your quality control to the end consumer. Stop blaming your consumers and look at your own house first.
 

Cell

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I personally don't have or have noticed this problem since I don't circulate Pro-Reef saltwater for more than a day, and I don't recommend to circulate it. No bacteria, no precipitate.

If you look exactly into the BRS testing of salt mixes, Pro-Reef also had a little of precipitate, it was just much less than in other salt brands. If you use a deeper container you will see more precipitate on the bottom, if you use an ordinary glass tank or another more shallow container you will see less precipitate.

I can't explain how you can precipitate more or less manganese from a certain concentration except bacteria, maybe you can. With bacteria most of the manganese precipitates, in fact frequently below the detection limit of the usual ICP-OES analyses. This precipitate you can find on the bottom of your mixing container. Since the concentration of manganese hasn't changed the quantity of precipitate shouldn't have changed.

I am open to any better explanation from your side.

Appreciate the insight. If I had a better explanation, I wouldn't be asking.
 

Hans-Werner

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Now after all that time, we are starting experiencing first hand negative impacts with the salt and it's our fault?
That was not my point. I think we must come away from the precipitate thing. Like I told above, we can look for the root cause open to all sides, of course also the salt. But to stare at the precipitates and to say premature "this is it" will not help much, in my opinion.

You may have your own view on this but to me there where always more than one solution and one way.

To look for or to exclude other explanations will need some time and, more than everything else, some cooperation.

I would prefer to make a setup with corals and the salt in question. The prove is in the pudding, I think.
 
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poidog

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That was not my point. I think we must come away from the precipitate thing. Like I told above, we can look for the root cause open to all sides, of course also the salt. But to stare at the precipitates and to say premature "this is it" will not help much, in my opinion.

You may have your own view on this but to me there where always more than one solution and one way.

To look for or to exclude other explanations will need some time and, more than everything else, some cooperation.

I would prefer to make a setup with corals and the salt in question, the prove is in the pudding, I think.
Hans, If you recall my first concern in post #1 was not with the precipitate. The precipitate I also experienced and have added it to the list of something is wrong. You can't tell me that for 15 years you have produced a clean mixing salt and now it's "dirty" and it's not concerning?

I have sent a salt sample in to Lou and have cooperated as much as I can. I hope you have enough information to get what you need to start your experiment or track down the questionable batches in reference. I for one, will not experiment on my own tank or animals.
 

Cell

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That was not my point. I think we must come away from the precipitate thing. Like I told above, we can look for the root cause open to all sides, of course also the salt. But to stare at the precipitates and to say premature "this is it" will not help much, in my opinion.

You may have your own view on this but to me there where always more than one solution and one way.

To look for or to exclude other explanations will need some time and, more than everything else, some cooperation.

I would prefer to make a setup with corals and the salt in question, the prove is in the pudding, I think.

I think for many though, the existence of precipitate is the primary problem and the reason we use TMP salt. This remains true even if it is harmless and completely independent of other performance issues being reported here. That's why so many continue to harp on it. We can separate the issues, but it doesn't make this one go away. It just means there may or may not be multiple issues going on.
 

FishyFishFish

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From an outsider, who doesn’t use TM salt, I would just like to add that if neither TM nor the end user know what is causing this, then nobody can definitely say who is responsible.

From all of these threads, everyone has been ‘blaming’ the salt made in Turkey but with no proof other than ‘Turkey isn’t as professional as Germany’. I can understand why TM might end up on the defensive if they can’t see any changes to the product they are putting out.

People mixing who say ‘I haven’t changed anything so it can’t be me’ don’t seem to understand that exact same point of view from the opposite side of the argument; TM are adamant that they haven’t changed anything either, so why should it be them?

Clearly, it appears something has changed, but what it is and who is responsible nobody knows.

I am not a chemist but the first thing that hasn’t really been identified, as far as I can see, is if all of these reports of precipitation (and I don’t know if it is a big or small total number of complaints) is from a select number of batches, a select production facility or across all of the salt being shipped. Do the buckets have batch numbers and, if so, are they all being reported to TM so that they can track trends? If they are, how widespread are the complaints? If there are no batch numbers, then that might be something that needs to be changed.

Also, someone mentioned the packaging has changed fairly recently. Is that correct? If so, is it only since the new packaging that these problems are occurring? What if something is happening during shipping that only affects the new packaging? This could potentially affect one facility only (depending on the supply chain) as the German and Turkish salts might be shipped on different boats/planes; it might be nothing to do with the production quality

There is the inference from this thread that TM should be telling everyone what the problem is, but if they don’t know, how can they do that?
 

Hans-Werner

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I have sent a salt sample in to Lou and have cooperated as much as I can. I hope you have enough information to get what you need to start your experiment or track down the questionable batches in reference. I for one, will not experiment on my own tank or animals.
Do we also have the batch number? This would help a lot also.

I have setup a pre-trial, as also stated above. It is just two buckets with a few "sticks" of Montipora and the same lighting as over the tank. It doesn't need much effort.

When doing the trial yourself also, you are sure how it was conducted. Maybe I would add some tank water or some Reef Actif for the organics, to make the water more coral-friendly.
 

Hans-Werner

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I am not a chemist but the first thing that hasn’t really been identified, as far as I can see, is if all of these reports of precipitation (and I don’t know if it is a big or small total number of complaints) is from a select number of batches, a select production facility or across all of the salt being shipped. Do the buckets have batch numbers and, if so, are they all being reported to TM so that they can track trends? If they are, how widespread are the complaints? If there are no batch numbers, then that might be something that needs to be changed.

Also, someone mentioned the packaging has changed fairly recently. Is that correct? If so, is it only since the new packaging that these problems are occurring? What if something is happening during shipping that only affects the new packaging? This could potentially affect one facility only (depending on the supply chain) as the German and Turkish salts might be shipped on different boats/planes; it might be nothing to do with the production quality
Very good suggestions, I really like your contribution.

We are already trying to check whether it could be the bags or buckets from Turkey that could have caused the acidic or citrus odor.

The buckets and boxes have batch numbers to trace back the salt to the mixing records which have batch numbers of raw materials, notes etc..
 

IKD

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The next place I would look if this was happening to me would be my water source and RODI unit.

Most of the issues seem to have started in November. Many water companies change their formulas at the plant between winter and summer. Maybe they switched to chloramines and the RO units were not ready for that switch? So now we have ammonia making it through? This usually affects fish more than coral but not a bad place to look.

Just spitballing here
If that were the case, then we should be seeing complaints against all brands of salt. Is that happening?
 

rtparty

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If that were the case, then we should be seeing complaints against all brands of salt. Is that happening?

Red Sea salt was just put on blast for basically this same thing. Many IO users report ZERO residue while many others show a totally caked up mess. Of course, IO's answer has always been it's a binding agent but that alone should tell you all you need to know. We have seen Fritz attacked multiple times for mixing dirty as well. The list goes on and on...

Yes, we see this stuff all the time in the hobby. The salt is ALWAYS to blame. I would say for some brands this is probably true. They are dirty salts. It is how they keep cost down.

How many times does someone have an issue, blame the salt, move onto a new brand, and then repeat the issues and look for a new salt all over? Yet, they never stop to look at other possibilities.
 

ReefHog

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Ive been following these various TMP threads and it seems that there might be a few issues going on. Maybe related IDK. some customers are getting black or brown sludge/gunk growing on the sides and bottom of the salt storage containers and some customers are getting deposits/precipitate. I was getting the brown gunk. Some customers have had negative affects to their corals and believe the salt is to blame. i believe most have not and are just not happy with the crap in the storage containers. My feeling is this. Regardless of weather the crap left behind on the sides of storage containers is of no concern health wise to fish or corals, I am paying for a clean salt mix that stays clean for extended periods of time. TMP has always been this salt. And I've stored it heated and not heated, circulated and not circulated for many weeks at a time with very consistent pristine salt water and storage containers. Until one day it wasn't. I cleaned the container and a week or two later the gunk was back. I even bought a new Brute container and had the same issue. Something is different. Is it possible it's on my end? Sure. But if you look at the location of the various members with issues, they cover most states here so I find it hard to believe all of these municipalities have changed their water treatment procedures at the same time. I know I have not changed anything on my end. If i want to think outside the box, is it possible a RODI manufacturer changed their carbon block filter that everyone with issues is using? anything is possible. But right now the only consistent is the salt and the general time frame that it started. Maybe time to get BRS involved. It's their videos that turned me on to this salt in the first place. Right around the 5:00 mark is why I started using TMP.

 

GillMeister

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Hey gang. Maybe this is a good time to shut down the discussion for a while and let these guys finish the investigation? I understand why people aren't happy. I wouldn't be either. But at this point we seem to be reiterating the same complaints. Let's let TM do their work and you can judge the results.

Agreed?
 

Cell

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As long as things stay civil and on topic, there is no reason to silence anyone. All parties involved benefit from figuring out whatever is going on. Several new people have joined the conversation in the past day or two with their own personal experiences. This is good. The more data reported, the better. We are all here because we like the product and want to keep using it.
 
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poidog

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Hey gang. Maybe this is a good time to shut down the discussion for a while and let these guys finish the investigation? I understand why people aren't happy. I wouldn't be either. But at this point we seem to be reiterating the same complaints. Let's let TM do their work and you can judge the results.

Agreed?
As the OP, I do not agree to locking this thread for several reasons. Nothing here has gone against the rules and this thread allows a collective source of information for both TM and consumers to hopefully pinpoint and rectify the issues.
 

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