QT Question: Repeat Prazi dose or move on to Copper

[WTJReef]

Hey Everyone,

I have a reasonably sized QT system that I have housed 2 small tangs and a Flame hawkfish in for approximately 3 weeks now.

I have observed the fish for 1 week ensuring they are all eating well (which they are) and for any obvious signs of disease.

I then dose the tank with crushed/dissolved Praziquantel tablets before performing a partial water change 48-72 Hours later. That was a week ago and I have spent another week observing the fish. All are in good health, although I believe my small purple tang may have a very minor case of Ich (a few small white dots - less than 5-7 in number). This purple tang In question still has a veracious appetite and is swimming around happily without issue, in fact he is the boss of the tank.

My question is: Would you re-dose the praziquantel (as per the instructions on the pill bottle to ensure absolute removal of any parasites) or begin bringing up copper concentration to eradicate Ich? I have not observed any signs of flukes or other kinds of disease, although I have not performed a FW dip

Any tips or recommendations are appreciated. I also have access to Triple Sulfa and a product called vertonex which is a blend of malachite green and quinine hydrochloride if you believe this may be a better choice for the fish

 

[Coolcasino]

I would continue with the treatment course. Finish with the second dose as directed and then start the copper treatment.

 

[threebuoys]

Hey Everyone,

I have a reasonably sized QT system that I have housed 2 small tangs and a Flame hawkfish in for approximately 3 weeks now.

I have observed the fish for 1 week ensuring they are all eating well (which they are) and for any obvious signs of disease.

I then dose the tank with crushed/dissolved Praziquantel tablets before performing a partial water change 48-72 Hours later. That was a week ago and I have spent another week observing the fish. All are in good health, although I believe my small purple tang may have a very minor case of Ich (a few small white dots - less than 5-7 in number). This purple tang In question still has a veracious appetite and is swimming around happily without issue, in fact he is the boss of the tank.

My question is: Would you re-dose the praziquantel (as per the instructions on the pill bottle to ensure absolute removal of any parasites) or begin bringing up copper concentration to eradicate Ich? I have not observed any signs of flukes or other kinds of disease, although I have not performed a FW dip

Any tips or recommendations are appreciated. I also have access to Triple Sulfa and a product called vertonex which is a blend of malachite green and quinine hydrochloride if you believe this may be a better choice for the fish

If, in fact, the purple tang has ich or some other parasite, I would opt for the copper treatment to ensure the parasite population doesn't explode while your are waiting to complete the prazi treatment. If you can supply some sharp photos using white light. we may be able to confirm the diagnosis. Tangs can sometimes have mucus plugs or other causes for white spots to appear, but, as you are probably aware, they have the reputation to be ich magnets.

Edit: also, what symptoms did you observe that led you to diagnose flukes in the first place?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hey Everyone,

I have a reasonably sized QT system that I have housed 2 small tangs and a Flame hawkfish in for approximately 3 weeks now.

I have observed the fish for 1 week ensuring they are all eating well (which they are) and for any obvious signs of disease.

I then dose the tank with crushed/dissolved Praziquantel tablets before performing a partial water change 48-72 Hours later. That was a week ago and I have spent another week observing the fish. All are in good health, although I believe my small purple tang may have a very minor case of Ich (a few small white dots - less than 5-7 in number). This purple tang In question still has a veracious appetite and is swimming around happily without issue, in fact he is the boss of the tank.

My question is: Would you re-dose the praziquantel (as per the instructions on the pill bottle to ensure absolute removal of any parasites) or begin bringing up copper concentration to eradicate Ich? I have not observed any signs of flukes or other kinds of disease, although I have not performed a FW dip

Any tips or recommendations are appreciated. I also have access to Triple Sulfa and a product called vertonex which is a blend of malachite green and quinine hydrochloride if you believe this may be a better choice for the fish

Verify before making change
I would address ich first and obviously
Any pics under white lighting?
Also any strange behavior such as shaking head, flashing, loss of appetite?
How is the breathing of the fish?

 

[LeftyReefer]

I do copper power and Prazi treatments together all the time. So you don't have to do one or the other, you can do both. Its generally best not to mix meds, but I do copper power and prazipro all the time. never had an issue doing so.

You definitely need the second (and maybe a third) dose of prazi to complete that treatment. It's best to give the follow up dose 9 days after the first dose.

If you think your fish have ICH, then I would also start copper ASAP for that.

if you don't think your fish have any flukes, then you can wait and do the (2) prazi treatments after you are done with copper, if you prefer not to do both at the same time. I save time and do both.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Is the praziquantel you are using made for aquariums? If so, what instructions did they provide in terms of making the pills soluble in water? If the pills are for veterinary medicine they may have binders/excipients in them that will at the very least change the dose calculations.

I don't see any need to use the triple sulfa and while I've never used Vertonex, I have used the ingredients, and I would skip that in favor of copper.

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

Hey Everyone,

I have a reasonably sized QT system that I have housed 2 small tangs and a Flame hawkfish in for approximately 3 weeks now.

I have observed the fish for 1 week ensuring they are all eating well (which they are) and for any obvious signs of disease.

I then dose the tank with crushed/dissolved Praziquantel tablets before performing a partial water change 48-72 Hours later. That was a week ago and I have spent another week observing the fish. All are in good health, although I believe my small purple tang may have a very minor case of Ich (a few small white dots - less than 5-7 in number). This purple tang In question still has a veracious appetite and is swimming around happily without issue, in fact he is the boss of the tank.

My question is: Would you re-dose the praziquantel (as per the instructions on the pill bottle to ensure absolute removal of any parasites) or begin bringing up copper concentration to eradicate Ich? I have not observed any signs of flukes or other kinds of disease, although I have not performed a FW dip

Any tips or recommendations are appreciated. I also have access to Triple Sulfa and a product called vertonex which is a blend of malachite green and quinine hydrochloride if you believe this may be a better choice for the fish

Yes - the protocol is designed to be the most likely to kill whatever you're trying to kill (i.e. give the second dose). The only reason to change would be IF the cryptocaryon became worse - and I would carefully watch that.

Generally speaking (though there are multiple protocols) - one doses copper first since CI or velvet is more 'risky'. You can then any possibility of that under control. Then dose prazipro.

Note - IF (Hopefully you will not) HAVE to switch to copper before finishing the praziquantel dose - You should repeat the full 2 doses of Praziquantel.

Maybe @Jay Hemdal can answer (I'm not totally aware of the pharmacokinetics of praziquantel in fish) - We generally know how long copper lasts in the body, I'm not sure that its a good idea to immediately add copper the day after whatever water change you do. BTW there are also plenty of people who have used both at the same time - but its not recommended.

Hope this help!! Good luck

EDIT - I'm not quite sure why this happens - I see an unanswered thread - and answer - then there are 10 posts there - LOL - I must be a slower typist. Sorry If I repeated anything Jay or Vetteguy said!!

 

[WTJReef]

Is the praziquantel you are using made for aquariums? If so, what instructions did they provide in terms of making the pills soluble in water? If the pills are for veterinary medicine they may have binders/excipients in them that will at the very least change the dose calculations.

I don't see any need to use the triple sulfa and while I've never used Vertonex, I have used the ingredients, and I would skip that in favor of copper.

Jay

Hi Jay,

Thanks so much for your reply

Yes the Praziquantel I'm using is intended for use in both fresh and saltwater aquariums, although I have wondered about its solubility. It is Blue Planet's Praziquantel. I'd love to get my hands on Prazipro, but have not been able to source in Australia. The pill bottle has a note stating that a small residue of cellulose will be evident after dissolving tablets, and so I have assumed that the white powder I have observed is the cellulose and not the med.

As far as what I have been doing, I have been crushing the tablets and premixing in some RO before adding, stirring for about 20 mins. I did post in another thread asking about vodka, which I had read works for some people, but I think it was you that urged me to be cautious owing to potential bacterial blooms, so I opted not to use any ethanol.

Can I ask what intances the Triple Sulfa would be appropriate? I purchased It to have in my arsenal a while back but haven't used it

 

[WTJReef]

Hey Guys,

A few people asking for pics, I will try my best - Very very small white specs that are few in number on the body of the Purple.

@vetteguy53081 Apart from the spots, The Fish appears to be in robust health. Attacks any Nori I add within seconds and devours pellets, mysis and brine shrimp when added. Eats twice a day and is an active swimmer. I haven't noticed any flashing

@threebuoys I have dosed Praziquantel Prophylactically, i.e. no evidence of flukes - I don't like dipping fish because I don't feel completely confident that I wont tip the fish over the edge of no return if it is already sick and stressed. I try my best to pick healthy fish out from the store and don't purchase online, but I still sit on the side of caution. Purple Tangs are quite expensive in Australia, so definitely trying to do right by it.

 

[WTJReef]

Yes - the protocol is designed to be the most likely to kill whatever you're trying to kill (i.e. give the second dose). The only reason to change would be IF the cryptocaryon became worse - and I would carefully watch that.

Generally speaking (though there are multiple protocols) - one doses copper first since CI or velvet is more 'risky'. You can then any possibility of that under control. Then dose prazipro.

Note - IF (Hopefully you will not) HAVE to switch to copper before finishing the praziquantel dose - You should repeat the full 2 doses of Praziquantel.

Maybe @Jay Hemdal can answer (I'm not totally aware of the pharmacokinetics of praziquantel in fish) - We generally know how long copper lasts in the body, I'm not sure that its a good idea to immediately add copper the day after whatever water change you do. BTW there are also plenty of people who have used both at the same time - but its not recommended.

Hope this help!! Good luck

EDIT - I'm not quite sure why this happens - I see an unanswered thread - and answer - then there are 10 posts there - LOL - I must be a slower typist. Sorry If I repeated anything Jay or Vetteguy said!!

All Good! I appreciate everyones input. At the moment the consensus seems to be split anyway!

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hey Guys,

A few people asking for pics, I will try my best - Very very small white specs that are few in number on the body of the Purple.

@vetteguy53081 Apart from the spots, The Fish appears to be in robust health. Attacks any Nori I add within seconds and devours pellets, mysis and brine shrimp when added. Eats twice a day and is an active swimmer. I haven't noticed any flashing

@threebuoys I have dosed Praziquantel Prophylactically, i.e. no evidence of flukes - I don't like dipping fish because I don't feel completely confident that I wont tip the fish over the edge of no return if it is already sick and stressed. I try my best to pick healthy fish out from the store and don't purchase online, but I still sit on the side of caution. Purple Tangs are quite expensive in Australia, so definitely trying to do right by it.

Reason for pics is to verify what you have. Can be ich, velevet, lympho and more

 

[WTJReef]

Reason for pics is to verify what you have. Can be ich, velevet, lympho and more

Hey @vetteguy53081 ,

I actually just went out to get pics of the purple and could not see any specs at all, however I have noticed 1 white speck on the body of my powder brown just below his lateral line. It also appears to be flashing against the bottom of the tank (only on the side of the aforementioned spec) and what looks like some head shaking every now and again (I could be wrong). The purple had specs that looked exactly the same only more in number (about 5-6)

I did my best with photos, this guy is not a poser and does not like to hold still. There is also a video

 

[Spare time]

If needed, I have done prazi+copper at the same time with no issue (prazipro and general cure) multiple times.

 

[threebuoys]

One spot by itself is not enough to confirm either crypto or velvet. Keep an eye on it and be on guard for more spots. If the spots are crypto, they will fall off, develop into cysts/eggs, eventually , in a day or two, become free swimmers and re-infect the fish. You indicated more spots were present on the purple tang and that they have disappeared. Again, the same life cycle would result in re-infections for both fish. The number of spots will continue to increase with each life cycle for the parasites.

Purple tangs are darn expensive here too. In any case. at some point if they were mine I would want to use the copper protocol for the full 30 days before moving them into my DT for peace of mind.

 

[WTJReef]

One spot by itself is not enough to confirm either crypto or velvet. Keep an eye on it and be on guard for more spots. If the spots are crypto, they will fall off, develop into cysts/eggs, eventually , in a day or two, become free swimmers and re-infect the fish. You indicated more spots were present on the purple tang and that they have disappeared. Again, the same life cycle would result in re-infections for both fish. The number of spots will continue to increase with each life cycle for the parasites.

Purple tangs are darn expensive here too. In any case. at some point if they were mine I would want to use the copper protocol for the full 30 days before moving them into my DT for peace of mind.

Thanks @threebuoys ,

If we are tossing up between Velvet and Ich, I might start bringing up copper concentration to therapeutic level over the next couple days rather than waiting for it to get worse as per your first comment. I've had Velvet run through my first tank and that was not fun.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi Jay,

Thanks so much for your reply

Yes the Praziquantel I'm using is intended for use in both fresh and saltwater aquariums, although I have wondered about its solubility. It is Blue Planet's Praziquantel. I'd love to get my hands on Prazipro, but have not been able to source in Australia. The pill bottle has a note stating that a small residue of cellulose will be evident after dissolving tablets, and so I have assumed that the white powder I have observed is the cellulose and not the med.

As far as what I have been doing, I have been crushing the tablets and premixing in some RO before adding, stirring for about 20 mins. I did post in another thread asking about vodka, which I had read works for some people, but I think it was you that urged me to be cautious owing to potential bacterial blooms, so I opted not to use any ethanol.

Can I ask what intances the Triple Sulfa would be appropriate? I purchased It to have in my arsenal a while back but haven't used it

Yes, alcohol will dissolve praziquantel, but then causes bacterial blooms that can strip oxygen from the water.
Sounds like you can just follow the instructions on your prazi since it was designed for aquarium use.
Triple sulfa is an antibiotic, I haven’t used it for many years, and then, mostly for freshwater bacterial diseases.
Jay

 

[WTJReef]

Hey Guys @vetteguy53081 @Jay Hemdal @threebuoys @MnFish1 ,

Sorry to tag you all - I need help.

A couple days past and the Purple Tang now has very obvious skin lesions. Way more than when I last noticed. Could I please get an ID/diagnosis and best course of action?

I was already slowly bringing up copper concentration in the water, but clearly I was being too nice with what ever this is and now it has exploded. Still, Im only noticing this on the purple tang - perhaps it just stands out more on the darker coloured fish.

I only have a Salifert indicator test, and upon testing, I couldn't pick up any copper (i.e concentration is less that 0.1ppm). Therapeutic range is 0.15 - 0.25PPM for the copper I have. I have added more copper tonight and will retest in a couple hours to see where I'm at.

Still swimming fine and has a pretty ferocious appetite.

A kid at my LFS told me he feeds his fish raw garlic chopped up - Any good?

Please see video/images below

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hey Guys @vetteguy53081 @Jay Hemdal @threebuoys @MnFish1 ,

Sorry to tag you all - I need help.

A couple days past and the Purple Tang now has very obvious skin lesions. Way more than when I last noticed. Could I please get an ID/diagnosis and best course of action?

I was already slowly bringing up copper concentration in the water, but clearly I was being too nice with what ever this is and now it has exploded. Still, Im only noticing this on the purple tang - perhaps it just stands out more on the darker coloured fish.

I only have a Salifert indicator test, and upon testing, I couldn't pick up any copper (i.e concentration is less that 0.1ppm). Therapeutic range is 0.15 - 0.25PPM for the copper I have. I have added more copper tonight and will retest in a couple hours to see where I'm at.

Still swimming fine and has a pretty ferocious appetite.

A kid at my LFS told me he feeds his fish raw garlic chopped up - Any good?

Please see video/images below

This fish appears to have velvet and will need to be quarantined as well as other occupants and tank fallow for 60 days
Treatment will be cooper product for Oodinum for full 30 days at 80.5 degrees at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 monitored by a Reliable copper test kit

 

[WTJReef]

This fish appears to have velvet and will need to be quarantined as well as other occupants and tank fallow for 60 days
Treatment will be cooper product for Oodinum for full 30 days at 80.5 degrees at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 monitored by a Reliable copper test kit

Thanks @vetteguy53081, this is in a quarantine system, after the fish are done with quarantine I will bleach the tank.

provided symptom free after 30 days copper, will they be able to be added to my DT directly or will they need to be watched for a period of time without copper?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks @vetteguy53081, this is in a quarantine system, after the fish are done with quarantine I will bleach the tank.

provided symptom free after 30 days copper, will they be able to be added to my DT directly or will they need to be watched for a period of time without copper?

Don’t add back to display until fallow period complete