Randy’s Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges

[BryanM]

I'm still new to this hobby, but the two reference tanks are gorgeous and couldn't be more different.

I'm still looking for the magic wand to remove dinos, but maybe my 3 day blackout period will work.

FWIW, I only worry about bottoming out nutrients now. Initially I read tons of threads where people try to keep phos at .03 or something... For me that's already way to close to zero anyway, and then there's "dirty" gorgeous tanks out there.

 

[Patx]

It's worth a look...

Rich Ross have a good score :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

 

[sixty_reefer]

Nice write up, a little contradictory in some points but it just goes to show that we need to discuss and experiment with this topics more often, eventually someone will have a breakthrough and finally identify the primarily pathway for N and P.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Nice write up, a little contradictory in some points but it just goes to show that we need to discuss and experiment with this topics more often, eventually someone will have a breakthrough and finally identify the primarily pathway for N and P.

I suspect it is more like: How do you drive from NY to LA. The number of ways to do it is huge, with pros and cons for all of them. :)

 

[areefer01]

I suspect it is more like: How do you drive from NY to LA. The number of ways to do it is huge, with pros and cons for all of them. :)

Hmm...start in New York City and end at the Portofino Inn in Redondo Beach, California and you have the Cannonball Run.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Nice write up, a little contradictory in some points but it just goes to show that we need to discuss and experiment with this topics more often, eventually someone will have a breakthrough and finally identify the primarily pathway for N and P.

Intended or not, your comment feels a bit more like head patting than it does a compliment.

Randy’s main point appears to be that different tanks can thrive at different nutrient levels, which isn’t really a contradiction, nor do I see anyplace where Randy has contradicted himself.

Can you point to the specific statements you see as contradictory?

Regarding "N and P pathways" we have quite extensively covered that these are complex webs of pathways, so I am not sure what you are after.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I suspect it is more like: How do you drive from NY to LA. The number of ways to do it is huge, with pros and cons for all of them. :)

Avoiding both appears to be he real solution to the riddle... but not sure how that equates to reefing.

Which route do you intend to take with your possible new tank?

 

[Ancient Mariner]

My take away is: Don’t sweat it as we really don’t know where the numbers need to be.

My general reefing philosophy is minimalism as what we add, alter, chase in a reef system might have more negative effects than positive effects. For me the risks of an additive of any sort are high in an Acropora tank like mine, especially when we really don’t know if there’s going to be a positive effect. So, I don’t chase nitrate or phosphate with anything but consistent regular water changes. And if they’re low, so be it. If they’re high, so be it. I have found my reef does well from nitrates 0-50 and phosphates 0-0.5.

 

[Fungusamongus]

I loved this write-up. Lots of ways to reef and this provides more proof. My P runs high always, but I have growth on almost all my corals, SPS, LPS, and softies. Thanks again Randy. As always, you provide great information.

 

[skey44]

This helps ease my mind at NO3 5.6 and PO4 0.12 :)
Thanks for the write up!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Which route do you intend to take with your possible new tank?

Still working out the details, but if it looks like I'm snorkling the shallows of Tahiti on a sunny afternoon, it will be a success. lol

 

[Miami Reef]

However, for a mature mixed reef, this would be how I personally would run it:

Why do you suggest higher nutrients for a mature mixed reef? Why not also for new tanks?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Why do you suggest higher nutrients for a mature mixed reef? Why not also for new tanks?

I wasn't intending to imply that new tanks should be lower, just that the ranges I was giving were for a mature reef. Given the uncertainty in testing accuracy and not knowing how many fish might be there in a new tank (maybe none, implying maybe not much ammonia), I might have the lower limits of the ranges I was giving be higher, especially the 5 ppm nitrate, to reduce dino risk. Maybe 10 ppm nitrate or even more.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Why do you suggest higher nutrients for a mature mixed reef? Why not also for new tanks?

Given the answer above, I still think there may be merit to that general premise.

It would be my assumption that a "mature" system would have for more established mechanisms to deal with (use for competition) those high nutrients. Now it may be that the "bad" stuff is better out competition, so it may not matter... but it is a thought.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It would be my assumption that a "mature" system would have for more established mechanisms to deal with (use for competition) those high nutrients.

I agree, and will also note that tanks like Richard's have big advantages over new tanks, such as little real estate for algae, lots of herbivores, and no real need for fast coral growth (maybe a need to not have it).

In the end, I certainly do not claim to have any special insight into what levels are best in all cases.

 

[CHSUB]

Would be hard to disagree with anything in this write up. I’m not a proponent of intentionally moving away from ocean nutrient levels, however in a “mature mixed reef” coral eye test is really all that matters. While the two example reef aquariums are quite different with regards to inorganic nutrient levels, I will argue that they are nearly identical based on methodology and principles. I’m not familiar with the hobbyist(Tusi) in the low nutrient system, but very familiar with Ross as a hobbyist. He is meticulous in maintaining his reef, he speaks of manually removing every spec of nuisance algae, vacuuming the sand bed, cleaning the rocks, and removing detritus with a canister filter. Feel confident the other hobbyist maintains a similar meticulously clean aquarium. Both aquariums are set up with the same proven reef principles outlined by Moe, Sprung and others many decades ago.

Where i disagree with the article is how this knowledge is applied in the hobby. The “new” hobbyist posts a picture of their obviously struggling aquarium, overloaded with fish and plagued with nuisance algae and the recommendation is identify the algae with a microscope so the helper can confirm dinos and advise their “advanced” opinion of raising inorganic nutrients. Sometimes quoting hobby jargon and the myth of growing something else with these higher nutrients. When, imo, the solution is to set up and run your aquarium like Ross and Tusi reef tanks; which are nearly identical.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

When, imo, the solution is to set up and run your aquarium like Ross and Tusi reef tanks; which are nearly identical.

What does that imply for an existing new reef tank with dinos? It’s too late to go back and use live ocean rock.

 

[tripdad]

A thought on " nutrients" in our tanks. I'm fairly certain that organisms on wild reefs do not rely primarily on N and P in solution for their nutritional needs. I'm assuming that there is a wealth of planktonic life ,of all three groups, that they obtain most of their nutrition from as well as massive sunlight and animal waste. But in our tanks, especially those super clean ones, the "nutrients" in solution may be all they have available. Therefore I don't think N and P numbers from a wild reef correllate to a reef tank very well. I think they need to be higher in our tanks. Good to hear your thoughts on it Randy.

 

[CHSUB]

What does that imply for an existing new reef tank with dinos? It’s too late to go back and use live ocean rock.

Imo and Ime dealing with problem algae, dinos included maybe because never bothered identifying, the solution is manual removal. When I hear Ross speak about his reef, he shows his often used canister filter and highlights removal and CUC. My impression is he views inorganic nutrients as secondary. I have/would raise inorganic nutrients because of struggle corals not problem algae.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Imo and Ime dealing with problem algae, dinos included maybe because never bothered identifying, the solution is manual removal. When I hear Ross speak about his reef, he shows his often used canister filter and highlights removal and CUC. My impression is he views inorganic nutrients as secondary. I have/would raise inorganic nutrients because of struggle corals not problem algae.

Certainly manual removal is always helpful.

But it frequently enough is successful in defeating dinos in low nutrient new tank to raise them (including silicate). The empirical evidence is convincing enough to me to recommend it. That does not mean other approaches might also not work.