Running High Nitrates But Zero Phosphate

[Fish Fan]

I wish I could help ya but I’ve never ran a fishless tank.. how are the nitrates even getting that high? Are you dosing them? Keep dosing phosphate and get it up while changing water to get the n03 down.. once they’re down then bacto balance is a great choice, I use it. It won’t really drop numbers it locks them in! It also contains p04 and n03 to keep ya from bottoming out.

Thank you for your reply!

I've never really run a fish-less tank either, so this situation is new to me. No, I'm not dosing nitrate (or ammonia), I'm adding a pinch of Reef Roids almost daily in an effort to get the phosphate up (yes, I understand this adds nitrate too), but even before the Reef Roids this tank has been chronically high nitrate/low phosphate, and I've never seen this before. Over the course of this tank's life, I've done maybe 8 or 10 large (about 80%) water changes to bring the nitrates down, but they always creep back up.

I'm intrigued by the NP Bacto Balance, I'm wondering if once I get my numbers in line I can use that product to maintain them where I want them

Thanks very much for your help here!

 

[Troylee]

Thank you for your reply!

I've never really run a fish-less tank either, so this situation is new to me. No, I'm not dosing nitrate (or ammonia), I'm adding a pinch of Reef Roids almost daily in an effort to get the phosphate up (yes, I understand this adds nitrate too), but even before the Reef Roids this tank has been chronically high nitrate/low phosphate, and I've never seen this before. Over the course of this tank's life, I've done maybe 8 or 10 large (about 80%) water changes to bring the nitrates down, but they always creep back up.

I'm intrigued by the NP Bacto Balance, I'm wondering if once I get my numbers in line I can use that product to maintain them where I want them

Thanks very much for your help here!

You most certainly can! Once you get them down then you lock it in with bacto balance and then dose ammonia and trisodium phosphate to adjust the numbers you want.. my experience with ammonia dosing “which I still do and love” is the phosphates will tank! Be prepared to keep dosing them.

 

[Fish Fan]

You most certainly can! Once you get them down then you lock it in with bacto balance and then dose ammonia and trisodium phosphate to adjust the numbers you want.. my experience with ammonia dosing “which I still do and love” is the phosphates will tank! Be prepared to keep dosing them.

Appreciate that!

Given the history with this tank, maybe I should plan on an another dosing pump to dose phosphate regularly.

 

[Troylee]

Appreciate that!

Given the history with this tank, maybe I should plan on an another dosing pump to dose phosphate regularly.

I know @Miami Reef was working a thread where somebody did a 100% water change and the nitrates still creeped up.. I’m almost starting to think the rocks might contain them like phosphate or something.. I’m just not seeing any other way they’re getting introduced unless it’s got too many fish but that’s def not your situation lol.

 

[Miami Reef]

This is the thread. Still a mystery.

Post 100% waterchange - when should I see my nitrate changing?

Hello everyone, So today I went ahead to do my giant waterchange - eventhough everyone was against the idea (and I reckon with good cause)- now my nitrate on the salifert test reads 10 ppm which would back my idea of 375 ppm before the waterchange. There is only one concern left: when will I...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[i cant think]

#reefsquad (<< Is this thing on ??)

Guys, I could use some advice, please. I've got a relatively new 25 AIO that has been running since late February, started with about 50% dry base rock, and 50% base rock that had been in my unlit 10 gallon invert tank for well over a year. I have also added some TBS rock rubble in one of the two refgium sections, I also temporarily placed a few chunks of TBS rock in the display, and I let the whole thing brew for a couple of months, before starting to stock with corals and turn the lights on. This is a fish-less coral and invert tank.

Since the start, this tank has been running high nitrate and very low to zero phosphate, which is a situation I've never personally encountered before. I believe it's because this is a fish-less tank, so I'm not feeding fish, obviously

I've done MANY relatively large (approaching like 80%) water changes in the life of this tank, and the nitrate always creeps back up; it's gone as high as 70 ppm.

I've been adding Reef Roids to raise the phosphate (that's all I have on hand). When adding the Reef Roids a pinch a day, I've been able to get the phosphate as high as about 17 ppB on the Hanna Phosphorus ULR Checker. I have been busy this week, and didn't add the Reef Roids for the last two days, and when I tested tonight, I got zero for phosphate. My nitrate today was about 52 ppm. I did another large water change because I have a bright green Psammocora that seems to go brown when the nitrate gets high, but I really don't want to be at nearly zero phosphate.

Again, this is a new situation for me. In the past when I've used dry rocks, I saw rather high phosphate, presumably from phosphates bound to the rock.

Since I have high nitrate but very low phosphate, I thought this tank may be a good candidate for carbon dosing, which I've read has a greater effect on lowering nitrate, but doesn't affect phosphate much. I"ve been doing a solution of 75% white vinegar and 25% vodka. I even sprung for Belvedere vodka because I want the best for my tank

So far, the carbon dosing isn't doing much to lower my nitrate. I've been told it can take some time to work, and I know that the bacteria need phosphate to grow. I'm also not really liking the IM NuvoSkim skimmer I installed here specifically because I started dosing carbon.

Do you guys have any suggestions for me here? I have been considering trying TM's NP Bacto Balance, which is an organic carbon source that claims it never drives either nitrate or phosphate too low. It clams to maintain both at low, but non-zero, concentrations. I like the sound of that, but I'm not thrilled to have to buy a relatively expensive (compared to vinegar/vodka) product here.

Should I try to dose a form of phosphate directly? Or is there a more appropriate product to try rather than the NP Bacto Balance?

I really don't want to be at zero phosphate, my corals look OK, but not great, and I think this is likely why.

Again, relevant parameters just tonight are:
Nitrate: 52 ppm Hanna HR Checker
Phosphate: 0 ppb Hanna Phosphorous ULR Checker

Any help would be greatly appreciated!! Thank you all in advance!!

This tank about 4 days ago:

Personally I don’t like dosing Phosphates as it can go quite wrong fairly quickly. The best thing I’d do is feed your corals with more phosphate induced foods, reef roids is ideal for that but to make a decent difference, a fair amount of it has to be added in.
The other thing is, do you have a sump or anywhere you can add sand without having it in the main display (as I assume you want to keep it barebottom). Even being able to have an external refugium, this will greatly help with the battle against high nitrates.

 

[tbrown]

You're in good hands with good advice.

 

[rishma]

#reefsquad (<< Is this thing on ??)

Guys, I could use some advice, please. I've got a relatively new 25 AIO that has been running since late February, started with about 50% dry base rock, and 50% base rock that had been in my unlit 10 gallon invert tank for well over a year. I have also added some TBS rock rubble in one of the two refgium sections, I also temporarily placed a few chunks of TBS rock in the display, and I let the whole thing brew for a couple of months, before starting to stock with corals and turn the lights on. This is a fish-less coral and invert tank.

Since the start, this tank has been running high nitrate and very low to zero phosphate, which is a situation I've never personally encountered before. I believe it's because this is a fish-less tank, so I'm not feeding fish, obviously

I've done MANY relatively large (approaching like 80%) water changes in the life of this tank, and the nitrate always creeps back up; it's gone as high as 70 ppm.

I've been adding Reef Roids to raise the phosphate (that's all I have on hand). When adding the Reef Roids a pinch a day, I've been able to get the phosphate as high as about 17 ppB on the Hanna Phosphorus ULR Checker. I have been busy this week, and didn't add the Reef Roids for the last two days, and when I tested tonight, I got zero for phosphate. My nitrate today was about 52 ppm. I did another large water change because I have a bright green Psammocora that seems to go brown when the nitrate gets high, but I really don't want to be at nearly zero phosphate.

Again, this is a new situation for me. In the past when I've used dry rocks, I saw rather high phosphate, presumably from phosphates bound to the rock.

Since I have high nitrate but very low phosphate, I thought this tank may be a good candidate for carbon dosing, which I've read has a greater effect on lowering nitrate, but doesn't affect phosphate much. I"ve been doing a solution of 75% white vinegar and 25% vodka. I even sprung for Belvedere vodka because I want the best for my tank

So far, the carbon dosing isn't doing much to lower my nitrate. I've been told it can take some time to work, and I know that the bacteria need phosphate to grow. I'm also not really liking the IM NuvoSkim skimmer I installed here specifically because I started dosing carbon.

Do you guys have any suggestions for me here? I have been considering trying TM's NP Bacto Balance, which is an organic carbon source that claims it never drives either nitrate or phosphate too low. It clams to maintain both at low, but non-zero, concentrations. I like the sound of that, but I'm not thrilled to have to buy a relatively expensive (compared to vinegar/vodka) product here.

Should I try to dose a form of phosphate directly? Or is there a more appropriate product to try rather than the NP Bacto Balance?

I really don't want to be at zero phosphate, my corals look OK, but not great, and I think this is likely why.

Again, relevant parameters just tonight are:
Nitrate: 52 ppm Hanna HR Checker
Phosphate: 0 ppb Hanna Phosphorous ULR Checker

Any help would be greatly appreciated!! Thank you all in advance!!

This tank about 4 days ago:

Personally I don’t like dosing Phosphates as it can go quite wrong fairly quickly. The best thing I’d do is feed your corals with more phosphate induced foods, reef roids is ideal for that but to make a decent difference, a fair amount of it has to be added in.
The other thing is, do you have a sump or anywhere you can add sand without having it in the main display (as I assume you want to keep it barebottom). Even being able to have an external refugium, this will greatly help with the battle against high nitrates.

I have a different perspective on this. I have the opposite experience dosing phosphates vs coral foods when it comes to phospate management. I find it’s easier to dose phosphate.

I do not consistently dose phosphate. I do consistently include coral foods in my phosphate inputs, but it took a lot of trial and error to find the right amount. When I need to make an adjustment/correction, dosing phosphate has more predictable results for me because I know the concentration of what I’m dosing.

Anecdotally, I have a good idea of what the phosphate impact is for a given volume reef roids in my tank, but that wouldn’t be very useful for other tanks. On the other hand, we can definitely calculate how much phosphate is added by phospate dosing.

 

[rishma]

I wish I could help ya but I’ve never ran a fishless tank.. how are the nitrates even getting that high? Are you dosing them? Keep dosing phosphate and get it up while changing water to get the n03 down.. once they’re down then bacto balance is a great choice, I use it. It won’t really drop numbers it locks them in! It also contains p04 and n03 to keep ya from bottoming out.

I’m also long time user of NP BB. At least in my little tank it’s not quite as forgiving as you describe (little tank challenges, you wouldn’t understand )

I have to tune my dose so the nitrate and phospate numbers don’t get too low (for me). I am able to achieve stability of both, better than any other tank I’ve had, but it took a bit of effort. I tightly control nutrient inputs and NP BB dose to achieve this. As with other carbon dosing, my nitrate tends to drift down. I know NP BB contains some nitrogen, but it’s not much, and my nitrate trends toward zero if I ignore it. That might actually be ok, but I’ve stuck with trying keep detectable nitrate.

 

[i cant think]

I have a different perspective on this. I have the opposite experience dosing phosphates vs coral foods when it comes to phospate management. I find it’s easier to dose phosphate.

I do not consistently dose phosphate. I do consistently include coral foods in my phosphate inputs, but it took a lot of trial and error to find the right amount. When I need to make an adjustment/correction, dosing phosphate has more predictable results for me because I know the concentration of what I’m dosing.

Anecdotally, I have a good idea of what the phosphate impact is for a given volume reef roids in my tank, but that wouldn’t be very useful for other tanks. On the other hand, we can definitely calculate how much phosphate is added by phospate dosing.

That’s interesting for sure. I’ve had difficulty with feeding and too much phosphates. Which honestly, I only notice too much vs too little phosphates when it comes to what my Acros are doing - too much phosphates? They colour insanely quickly, usually because the phosphates are induced by feedings. Too little PO4? They grow rather than colour.

But when it comes to dosing it, I used to do it with some success (it never got to the levels I wanted, whereas now I’m at my ideal levels with feeding) but as I care for larger systems it’s becoming more unrealistic and difficult to deal with.

 

[Lasse]

I wish I could help ya but I’ve never ran a fishless tank.. how are the nitrates even getting that high? Are you dosing them? Keep dosing phosphate and get it up while changing water to get the n03 down.. once they’re down then bacto balance is a great choice, I use it. It won’t really drop numbers it locks them in! It also contains p04 and n03 to keep ya from bottoming out.

I have the same thought´s - where does the NO3 comes from?

As I know it - its impossible that the NO3 is stored anywhere in your tank. IMO - the only way it could enter you tank in a natural way is by bacteria and animals (including the animal part of the coral) that mineralize organic nitrogen into the inorganic NH3/NH4 that´s further will be bacterial oxidized into NO3. I can also see that NH3 can enter the tank through air but if so - you need something that add NH3 into the air and I suppose that you do not have any cat litter box near your tank or a leaking ammonia based refrigerator/AC in the same room. Or live on a farm near a manure pit.

I need also to ask - what do you measure NO3 with? Have you any idea of your NO2 concentration?

Can you show a table or graph of your NO3 concentration with a time stamp started with a large WC?

But never the less - I think its wise to dose PO4 for the moment but I would dose a low amount in the beginning - evenly spread over 24 hours a day. If possible - I would read PO4 just before light is going on. Its rather common that you get a ketchup effect when dosing PO4 (nothing, nothing, nothing and then suddenly everything) With even dosing during night (no uptake by photosynthesis) and measure before photosynthesis starts, I imagine that I get an early warning that rocks and sand are starting to get full of stored PO4. True or not - who knows without testing? Remember the goal is not to get 0.x PO4 as waste in the water column - the goal is to get enough phosphate to give good growth to your corals.

Honestly - I do not know if organic carbon dosing is wise before you get your PO4 up at least in the morning - at least not with the "fast" sources like vinegar and ethanol - maybe the more slow acting Bacto Balance is better in this case? @Hans-Werner may have an input here - its his invention

With this said - I´m very interested to try to figure out from where your high NO3 originate.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[IOAOI]

Thank you for your reply here!

Interesting! Out of curiosity, would that fit in the back of my IM 25 lagoon AIO?

Thanks again!

I think it should fit.

 

[officialreefbros]

What is the impact of an oversized skimmer? Like what if we tossed a 70g HOD onto our small 25g tanks so it fits nicely?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Personally I don’t like dosing Phosphates as it can go quite wrong fairly quickly.

If you mean by a mistake from, say, a dosing pump left on, I don’t disagree.

But I cannot see how properly done phosphate dosing can be less controlled than feeding. You can add the exact amount you want, without adding N or other things you may not want. :)

 

[Hans-Werner]

maybe the more slow acting Bacto Balance is better in this case? @Hans-Werner may have an input here - its his invention

NP-Bacto-Balance is designed to lower nutrient concentrations to very low levels but to stabilize especially phosphate, but also nitrogen compounds, at some point. It is intended for tanks that have some kind of nutrient load, i. e. feeding. Maybe here it is the right product.

For adding nutrients we have Plus-NP.

There is one way nitrogen could get into the tank from air: It is nitrogen oxides from combustion processes and manure. I have no estimates how much it could be, but it is enough to fertilize low nutrient soils and for threatening certain plants.

 

[Fish Fan]

I think it should fit.

Thank you for your help!

 

[Fish Fan]

NP-Bacto-Balance is designed to lower nutrient concentrations to very low levels but to stabilize especially phosphate, but also nitrogen compounds, at some point. It is intended for tanks that have some kind of nutrient load, i. e. feeding. Maybe here it is the right product.

For adding nutrients we have Plus-NP.

There is one way nitrogen could get into the tank from air: It is nitrogen oxides from combustion processes and manure. I have no estimates how much it could be, but it is enough to fertilize low nutrient soils and for threatening certain plants.

Thank you for your help here!

Would you think that a good plan for my situation would be to bring my phosphate up a little using sodium phosphate, and then use the Bacto Balance to maintain levels long-term?

 

[Fish Fan]

Personally I don’t like dosing Phosphates as it can go quite wrong fairly quickly. The best thing I’d do is feed your corals with more phosphate induced foods, reef roids is ideal for that but to make a decent difference, a fair amount of it has to be added in.
The other thing is, do you have a sump or anywhere you can add sand without having it in the main display (as I assume you want to keep it barebottom). Even being able to have an external refugium, this will greatly help with the battle against high nitrates.

Thank you for your help here!

Unfortunately, this is a small AIO, and I would like to keep it bare bottom, so no room to add sand (at least not much). I do have some TBS rock rubble in the back 'fuge section.

 

[Fish Fan]

@Lasse
@Miami Reef
@Troylee

I'm absolutely as puzzled here as you guys are, I have no idea where all this nitrate is coming from. If it was organics trapped in (half) of my rocks (half, because 50% of my rock was well cycled for more than 1 year in another tank, 50% was needed new new rock), I would expect to see high phosphate too.

Again, I've done I don't even know how many large water changes (~80%), and the nitrate always comes back up, yet I'm running at zero or nearly zero phosphates.

@Lasse I cannot provide a graph, I don't tend to write this stuff down, but maybe I should, especially given my situation here. Yes, I do understand I need some phosphate to facilitate the carbon dosing. I'm using Hanna Checkers for all these tests here. I don't typically measure NO2-, but I happen to have a Hanna Nitrite Checker, so I could test if you think it's helpful here.

Thank you all fr your help, I really appreciate it!!

 

[rishma]

I feel like it was asked, but have you checked nitrate with a different kit?