Setting up a reef tank as a stable ecosystem

EMeyer

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I am now. I have about 60 or 70lbs of dry. But I want to find a way to add at least 30lbs of live.(gulf live, Tampa, etc) I don’t want a ton of rock in my DT so fish have some room and flow is reasonable enough not to have any dead zones. But my impulse buy sump does not have nearly enough space for even a refugium with 10lbs or rock. Should I just say screw it and go for the diy Tupperware sump? Lol
Glad to hear you're considering live rock, because its absolutely the answer to the question you originally posed. Live rock has been shown to establish hundreds of different types of Bacteria and Archaea in the tank within weeks, while dry rock tanks lack these types (and so do bottles).

You might also consider some live rock and live mud which have also been shown to add lots of microbial diversity.
 

ca1ore

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How have people managed to propagate and maintain a diverse ecosystem of micro fauna?

Excluding bacteria, I think the answer, unfortunately, is that it is not really possible …. at least, not with a broad set of animals (maybe you meant flora as well?). Some will persevere and propagate - bristle worms and brittle stars - but most will require occasional replenishment. I had a pretty stable population of copepods in my system at one point, but not sustainable in the face of a mandarin and leopard wrasses. The 'problem' with all (or close enough to all to be all) reef tanks is that they turn the food web upside down. Far too many 'apex' predators for the micro-fauna to be sustainable. If one were willing to maintain a huge system, with massive amounts of live rock and food input, yet only two or three fishes …. then you'd be getting there. Nobody does that because the benefit of a sustainable ecosystem of micro-fauna is modest compared to the desire for a significant fish population.
 

Nanorock1970

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I could probably go with at least a 40B. My stand is just a steel framework so it’s pretty open I just have no idea what I’m doing with regards to custom baffles. If I knew how to reasonably diy acrylic and had the tools to do so I’d try and create a sump that completely filled the open space at the base of my stand so I had plenty of room for a large fuge, my skimmer, return, and for plumping in a Ca reactor and possibly a UV.

If wishes were horses lol
there are a few youtube vids on DIY sumps. I did see somewhere that the caulk does not attach plastic to glass very well? Not sure myself but something to look into. You could go to a glass shop and have them cut glass to your specs and then you just have to caulk them into your tank.
 

najer

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I thought about this since earlier and there have been lots of great answers above, decide what you want to try to do.
When I designed my tank it was to make it water change free (unless required) so the tank has a full glass divide at 3/5 the way along and that has a swim through hole for the fish and creatures, the right side is a display refugium (dumping ground) so my fish can feed themselves all day as they should.
I have a large sump refugium as well.
Ecosystem is a term that has been discussed to death over the years, I dose because I don't do water changes but I wanted to do it as "naturally" as possible, I do have a skimmer.

DSC_0003 (2) (1024x286).jpg
 
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First of all, thanks for all the input!


I think I’m going to try and either find a used prefabbed sump that has more space for a fuge, possibly figure out how to DIY a custom sump, or maybe even get another tank (say 20L) and house it in the bottom of my QT’s stand and just plumb it into the display as a stand alone refugium. The only problem with the second two options being that I have no idea what I’m doing with Wm other plumbing and working with glass or acrylic.

I do want to have some LR in my system. But i primarily want it in a sump because I plan on actually trying to create a decent scape in my DT with the dry rock I have. Maybe a few pieces of LR within whatever structures I come up with.

I realize there isn’t a realist way to create a true ecosystem within my set up, but I really want to make it as hands off as possible as far as having biological means of maintaining stability. Which makes me wonder if I should start looking into something like the Zeovit system in addition to having a large fuge with LR.

Also, what’s “live mud”, I’m not familiar with it
 

Reefer of Oz

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Watching. Thanks for this thread. I am a new aquarist in the middle of my first build. You seem to have some of the same ideals and goals with this hobby as myself. I appreciate the discussion, as it helps guide and reinforce some of my thoughts.
 
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BeltedCoyote

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Watching. Thanks for this thread. I am a new aquarist in the middle of my first build. You seem to have some of the same ideals and goals with this hobby as myself. I appreciate the discussion, as it helps guide and reinforce some of my thoughts.


Thanks for the kind words. That’s part of why I wanted to start this thread. I’ve been exploring a lot of the various topics touched on in this thread independently, but I wanted to try and make this where people like you or I can stop and get at least a journeyman’s understanding of this hobby (maybe that’s a bit of wishful thinking but still giving it a try lol)
 

R.Weller

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I think I’m going to try and either find a used prefabbed sump that has more space for a fuge, possibly figure out how to DIY a custom sump,

The decision to go DIY changed a lot for us. First, it was economical & that was necessary. Later, it forced us to learn a great deal about how each component worked. Now, it’s our default approach to the hobby. I highly recommend it for those wanting to understand more about their systems. Save some cash & learn a lot.
 

Nano sapiens

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The 'problem' with all (or close enough to all to be all) reef tanks is that they turn the food web upside down. Far too many 'apex' predators for the micro-fauna to be sustainable. If one were willing to maintain a huge system, with massive amounts of live rock and food input, yet only two or three fishes …. then you'd be getting there. Nobody does that because the benefit of a sustainable ecosystem of micro-fauna is modest compared to the desire for a significant fish population.

IME, the most critical factor. One can set up the most basic of systems with true live rock & live sand (no refugium, skimmer ,etc.) and as long as the apex predators are minimized (or absent), the system, no matter it's size, can maintain a relative abundance of micro fauna.

Not too long ago I specifically selected fish species that aren't your typical efficient reef fish predators for my small system and that has greatly increased the amount of micro fauna visible.
 

MaugieDawgieCorals

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I could probably go with at least a 40B. My stand is just a steel framework so it’s pretty open I just have no idea what I’m doing with regards to custom baffles. If I knew how to reasonably diy acrylic and had the tools to do so I’d try and create a sump that completely filled the open space at the base of my stand so I had plenty of room for a large fuge, my skimmer, return, and for plumping in a Ca reactor and possibly a UV.

If wishes were horses lol
You can find diy refugium kits on eBay for less than 100$. Comes with all the dividers you need. And they’re actually pretty high quality material. That’s what I would recommend. Also if you can fit a 40b in the stand that’s the size I would go with. Because it is a DIY kit you can make the refugium section as big as you want.
 
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BeltedCoyote

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I think I’m going to go full over enthusiastic with my diy lol.

so...bear with me lol. I think I’m going to keep the pro-clear sump and use it for my skimmer and where I’ll plumb my CaRx when I figure out which ones my best bet. As for the refugium.. well, the stand that my 40b qt is on has a section on the bottom which is nearly large enough for another 40b. There’s some metal framework, but I think I’m going to measure it out and get some plywood cut and place it on top. Then I’m thinking get a 30g and have it be a “display” fuge with some gulf live rock or something similar, plumbed into my sump.

Not a huge amount of extra water volume (maybe it’d take my total volume up to 150 or 160g?) But added biological filtration, and possibly a more robust bacterial population. Also, a good dungeon for crabs and things lol
 
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BeltedCoyote

BeltedCoyote

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IME, the most critical factor. One can set up the most basic of systems with true live rock & live sand (no refugium, skimmer ,etc.) and as long as the apex predators are minimized (or absent), the system, no matter it's size, can maintain a relative abundance of micro fauna.

Not too long ago I specifically selected fish species that aren't your typical efficient reef fish predators for my small system and that has greatly increased the amount of micro fauna visible.

this is actually something I’ve been thinking about. My original fish list has gone out the window. At this point I’m only set on my two clowns and a one spot fox face. Beyond that im not sure
 

Scott Campbell

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I absolutely think you can set up a tank as an ecosystem. But conditional on a number of factors:

1. You need a lot of rock so that microfauna have a place to live and hide. And as a place for sponges and worms and tunicates to attach. Seeding the tank with live rock seems the way to go in my opinion. Of course a large amount of rock doesn't always make for a beautifully aqua-scaped appearance.

2. Minimal number of fish seems best. Too many fish will de-populate the microfauna and de-stabilize the ecosystem you are trying to maintain.

3. Fish that can graze on what grows in the tank will greatly reduce the food you have to add to the tank. Heavy import and export of nutrients can make it difficult to maintain stable microfauna populations. Microfauna populations can grow out of control and/or crash rather quickly and easily. Reducing the food input and keeping fish that manage the microfauna populations helps keep the system in balance.

4. A large refugium helps greatly.

5. Embracing algae growth (to a point) helps greatly. Algae growth in the main tank and the refugium can be a valuable source of food for the fish and the microfauna. And a place for microfauna to live. Your tank may consequently not be as visually attractive as you might hope. But it will certainly be more interesting.

6. Recognize that your tank almost certainly cannot maintain a self-sustaining ecosystem. Just not enough tank volume. So you will have to feed and replenish the bottom of the food chain. I gave up on adding phyto directly to the tank and instead add phyto to glass gallon jugs full of copepods. I can screen out some of the copepods weekly and maintain a constant source for the tank without trying blanket the whole tank with sufficient amounts of phytoplankton. I also buy amphipods once or twice a year to add to the tank. I also add a lot of liquid food to the tank and carbon dose to boost bacterial populations. You have to be committed to feeding and maintaining all the small creatures you never really see.

7. You need microfauna in a variety of sizes. The more "levels" of microfauna present in your system the quicker your system can break down carbon waste and convert the waste into food for the bottom levels of the food chain. The goal is to cycle the nutrients in your tank efficiently to maintain some manner of ecosystem stability.

8. You need to recognize your tank will be carrying a much higher biological load than other tanks. So water movement and aeration to get carbon dioxide out of the water is much more critical. Your tank might also crash much more quickly in case of a power outage. You will need back up measures in place.

9. It takes time to achieve stability. I always see these "Clean-up Crew Packages" for sale that include like 100 or more hermit crabs. I can't imagine how any tank can support 100 hermit crabs. After 30+ years I know my system can comfortably support about 4 or 5 hermit crabs. If I add too many, the population just dies back to 4 or 5. If I stay at 4-5 they live for years and years and are a valuable part of the ecosystem. And that is just hermit crabs. Trying to figure out what works for the whole system is a slow and often frustrating process.

But I love at least trying to make it work. It certainly seems to be a very healthy environment for the fish and corals. I wish you the best of luck!!! :)
 

michaelb

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Your talking your ecosystem. It’s yours not anyone’s else’s. Yours will be different from mine or any others. Add this or do that are suggestions only and what works for them. It’s what works for your ecosystem. Not mine. That’s what makes keep aquariums amazing. .Go slow. Add or subtract very slowly. If you had tanks on opposite site of the room, they will be different. We all have different lighting and filtration bio loads. Nothing is the same. Nature is like that. The ecosystem that is under shade because of trees will be different from ones that are not.
 

Nano sapiens

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Always fun to look at what hitchhiker macro fauna can survive from the beginning/near beginning.

After 12 years (12g nano):
  • Collonista snails (Collonista amakusaens)
  • Limpet snails (unknown species - white, small 3/8" max)
  • Bristleworms (Eurythoe complanata?)
  • Mini Brittle Stars (Amphipholis squamata?)
  • Mysid shrimp (unknown species)
  • Collonial hydroids
  • Vermetid snails
  • White/black striped worms (unknown species, rock only)
  • 'Bristle-Mouth' worms (unknown species species, sand only)
  • Isopods (small benthic detritivores)
  • 'Black Bugs' (near microscopic detritivores all over the rocks)
 

Christoporia

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I could probably go with at least a 40B. My stand is just a steel framework so it’s pretty open I just have no idea what I’m doing with regards to custom baffles. If I knew how to reasonably diy acrylic and had the tools to do so I’d try and create a sump that completely filled the open space at the base of my stand so I had plenty of room for a large fuge, my skimmer, return, and for plumping in a Ca reactor and possibly a UV.

If wishes were horses lol

Amazon has some baffle kits that you can get based of your wants/needs.
 

Christoporia

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I could probably go with at least a 40B. My stand is just a steel framework so it’s pretty open I just have no idea what I’m doing with regards to custom baffles. If I knew how to reasonably diy acrylic and had the tools to do so I’d try and create a sump that completely filled the open space at the base of my stand so I had plenty of room for a large fuge, my skimmer, return, and for plumping in a Ca reactor and possibly a UV.

If wishes were horses lol
Here is my 40 breeder sump with a kit from Amazon

20190928_180014.jpg
 

A worm with high fashion and practical utility: Have you ever kept feather dusters in your reef aquarium?

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