Sudden Clownfish Death

[New9742]

Hi All,

I know things like this get asked a lot but I haven't found an answer to help me yet.

I'm essentially in the beginning stages of setting up my first saltwater tank (I have a blog thread on my profile if you want to see everything. It has a lot of detailed parameters/hiccups I've been facing since the start).

I have had two clowns (bought at the same time from my LFS) in a QT tank for the past 10-11 days. They have been fairly active and didn't seem to be having any real issues. I initially used the rapid quarantine packet when I first brought them home and didn't observe any serious issues. I had to end the blue bath at the 30 minute mark as I observed them to become lethargic and not really moving away from stimuli very well. After putting them into the quarantine tank, I saw no other indications of stress and they acclimated well. I have looked at them daily and have seen no signs of Ich/Velvet/Parasites.

QT Setup
-Repurposed Red Sea ATO tank (~1 gallon)
-Sponge Filter (For 5-10 gallon tanks. Runs using an air pump to keep water clean and aerated as well)
-Small anemone decoration for tank (Clowns seemed to like it and I observed them to be swimming around in it/brushing against it)
-Four oz of live rock
-Dosed with MicroBacter7 the first few days to build up bacteria
-Ammonia checked daily in the AM and water level topped off with RO at the same time.
-Water changes initially frequently as bacteria colony established to keep ammonia low. Have done the last two about 4 days apart from each other just to clean the water out and Ammonia levels have been about 0.25-0.5 on API kit

Levels at water change on 3/9/22:
-Old Water:
--NH4 ~0.25
--NO2 0
--NO3 ~5-10
--pH ~8

-New Water:
--Temp was matched to tank within about 1 degree difference (~75).
--pH ~8.3-8.4
--Salinity 1.023



I use a baster to blow up any food particles into the water column and scoop out about 80% of the water during each of the water changes and squeezed-rinsed the sponge in the old water before replacing into the tank and refilling with the new water. I have done this each time, for each water change.

After yesterday's water change I didn't notice any real change in their behavior after. Seemed more scared/wary for a bit but then returned to normal. I awoke this morning to find one of my Clowns face down at the bottom of the tank being held in place by the anemone tentacles. I double checked my main water parameters and found the temp good, NH4 was about 0.25-0.5, NO2 and NO3 were both zero.

I have mostly been feeding live baby brine shrimp, but I have been also working at getting them used to/eating RotiFeast and OysterFeast. I have been out of BBS the past few days and feeding almost exclusively RotiFeast with a little OysterFeast mixed in. I feed twice a day, morning and evening. I know the Clowns loved BBS, but I have been struggling to tell if they are eating any of the RotiFeast and OysterFeast. I think they have been eating it, but to be honest I'm not totally sure.

I examined the body of the Clown who died and saw no signs of sickness or disease (white spots, flakes, sloughing) and I think their gills were a good color too and as far as I could see/tell didn't appear to be inflamed or clogged. I saw no signs of injury either on any of their fins or head. The Clown who is still alive still seems active/fine and I don't see any signs of disease on them still. I tried feeding RotiFeast and even some flaked fish food but I didn't really see them go for any of it. I dosed another round of bacteria this morning too to help deal with any possible NH4 spike.

I'm leaning towards this was just a random fish death that may have been caused by stress from my aggressive water changes. Maybe I also unintentionally starved them because they weren't eating when I thought they were?

So I guess my questions are:
1) Did I miss something and need to be concerned about the health of my other Clown
2) How can I get my Clown(s) to eat the food I'm giving them for sure. I am locked into using BBS, RotiFeast, and OysterFeast only and BBS won't always be available.

Thanks in advance for any help/advice.

 

[Sharkbait19]

Did you notice any off behavior in the fish before it died?
It seems to be red around the gills, but post death pics always make it difficult to diagnose.
The fish does appear thin, but not emaciated so I don’t think it starved to death.
For now, I would keep a close eye on the other clown and be ready to treat if necessary.
Get better test kits too - given API’s inaccuracy it’s difficult to say if elevated ammonia was a culprit or just an artifact of the test.

 

[Crustaceon]

I don't think your tank is cycled.

 

[New9742]

Sharkbait19,
-I didn't really notice any different behavior from either clown before death. As far as I could tell they were as active as usual when I fed dinner at the usual time last night. They didn't really shy away and seemed interested in the RotiFeast when I added it, swimming around randomly as it looked like they picked at it.
-Size wise, I don't think either has become smaller since I got them, but if it has been gradual enough I wouldn't have noticed- so basically they may be skinny, but I don't think there was weight loss.
-And believe me, I have not been a fan of API for awhile now. I'm working on incorporating Red Sea as my go to kit now for my display tank, but I don't have a different NH4 kit yet. The only upside is my NH4 consistently reads the same on other API kits too from different LFS and friends.

Crustaceon,
It may not be?? But I think it is. I added live rock to it that I got from a QT supply at my LFS and I have been adding bacteria consistently as well. I have never registered Nitrites on it and my Nitrates have been low/zero too whenever I test them. I have never let my NH4 read higher than 0.5 on the API kit (so any real green tinge to it) and do a water change same day when I see it.

Thank you guys for your input!

Here are some pics of my still living Clown after the death of the other. There is a big size difference between them. The one who died is about half the size of the one who is still kicking.

 

[Sharkbait19]

Aggression is always possible given the size difference, but you would likely see the marks (like bites on the fins). Could you try to get some clearer pics and a video (linked to YouTube) - the fins look a little cloudy and I want to rule out ich or brook.

 

[New9742]

Sorry for the delay, but here is the video you requested. About a minute long, the beginning is kind of terrible ha ha. Sorry.

 

[Crustaceon]

Simply adding live rock isn't going to allow you to avoid cycling a tank. I have never seen this be the case and I've had numerous tanks totally full of live rock, with no sand, that I've moved into a new tank and had a massive cycle the next day. This isn't meant to be a knock on you as a new reefer, but I have to say it for the sake of the community at large. I didn't want this to be a long answer, but it's really bugging me now because I'm seeing this trend of trying to get a tank up an running asap and just doing WAY too much in general because WAY too many voices are chattering away without really being a general and accurate consensus. This is what I think are safe practices: 1. Numbers are numbers but ONLY tell answer the question you're asking. If you don't consider the other factors, you can't see the entire scenario and will get misleading results from testing. Look at ammonia for example. Let's say the established bacteria managed to convert the ammonia you added. Great. But is that bacterial population robust enough to handle a sudden influx of livestock? Who knows. That's why it's good to just wait and give that bacteria plenty of time to thoroughly propagate. I'm sure some scientist here will argue about taking samples of the sandbed or whatnot and testing bacterial colonization per grain or whatever. What's safer, even though it's not as "optimal" is getting clear indications of cycling and waiting an extra month or two before adding livestock. What's worse? Waiting a little bit or losing fish? 2. Take your time and when I say that, I don't mean wait a day. I mean wait a month or longer. This applies not just to cycling, but everything else. Nothing is "plug an play" in this hobby. You typically can't just poor stuff in and get a desired result without some additional setup or time added. 3. If your new acquisition is eating and acting normally, don't medicate it. QT without medication for observation purposes is fine. When you're sure, give them a gentle acclimation and add them to a thoroughly cycled tank.

 

[dedragon]

im gonna guess this was ammonia build up as a 1 gallon tank is much too small for any qt system

 

[dedragon]

I added live rock to it that I got from a QT supply at my LFS and I have been adding bacteria consistently as well.

Live rock at LFS is usually not very live as they have too much turnover and are adding rock constantly, so you are most likely not even cycled. I use fritzyme 9 for quarantine with good results using even dry rock, havent had as good experience with microbacter so i dont use that product anymore

 

[Crustaceon]

We JUST had a thread on reasons why reefers leave this hobby. This is another reason why. I'm sure you read tons of posts on this forum and in your heart, thought you were doing exactly what needed to be done to find success. Yet here you are wondering why this happened. That's OUR failure. Not yours. WE need to do our due diligence and post what's going to work most of the time and not what "might" work sometimes or what scientific research "might" support a certain theory. Otherwise, we should be saying "I don't know" or "this is something we've done for years and have good success with even though we don't know the exact science behind it yet."

 

[New9742]

Crustaceon,
I really appreciate the thorough reply and education about cycling and waiting. I'll admit I jumped the gun on doing the quarantine. I was initially going to do the rapid quarantine packet and put them into my display, but I decided last minute to try and do a proper QT. That's the biggest reason I didn't have anything up and running prior and basically played catch up. I have tried to constantly monitor my NH4, NO2, and NO3 in the tank consistently to make sure there were no spikes or dangerous levels present and did water changes often enough to keep levels overall good. It appears I messed up enough at the beginning that it didn't matter what I did at the end. In the future I'm going to keep a sponge and a piece of rock in my main tank to help at least have a bacteria starter for any future QT I end up doing, but I'll be sure to take some more time and planning too.

dedragon,
You're probably right, the owner of the store said he wouldn't sell any rock without a full 2 weeks minimum in his system, but who knows if that was actually the case or not with mine. I can't say for sure if I've had a great experience or not with Microbacter7, but I've had better results than using StartSmart like I did at the beginning. I may look into Dr Tim's products after this. And I was worried about having such a small amount of volume, but it was a system I could afford and fit into what I have here, plus much easier to do water changes as I have no at home RO/Saltwater mix system and have to source water from LFS, which are fairly far and inconvenient for me to visit often for refills. I just assumed I could make it work better.

Thank you both again for your thoughtful advice and input. In a hobby where everyone's opinion may be (and apparently often is) different, I appreciate you both taking the time to educate me with your insights and for the special attention to my own personal issue with my tank.

 

[Sharkbait19]

Just saw that it is a 1 gallon qt - I would have to agree that that is the likely problem. Alone, a small clown should be in at least 5 gallons (10 being ideal) for the duration of qt to avoid buildup of ammonia.

 

[New9742]

Noted on the tank size. Well in that case I have some thinking and upgrading to do.

Is the general consensus I may not have had any disease, I just had some wild parameter problems that killed him?

 

[dedragon]

Not every store has this but a couple LFS near me run a separate system for captive bred fish. They are mostly clownfish but keeps parasites away from the captive bred ones and there isnt a need IME to quarantine these guys. If you cant setup a more stable qt using something like a cheap 10-20 gallon tank (petco has them most of the time) it is probably doing more harm than good trying to qt anything. The 1 gallon might be good for observation for a day or 2 just to inspect the fish more carefully but i would worry about ammonia build up and stressing the fish out in such a small system

 

[dedragon]

Is the general consensus I may not have had any disease, I just had some wild parameter problems that killed him?

I would guess that but it could have still been something like brook, but if it is brook the other fish is very likely to show signs of it soon as well. Be on the lookout for excess white mucous on the fish and labored breathing just to be sure

 

[Sharkbait19]

I would guess that but it could have still been something like brook, but if it is brook the other fish is very likely to show signs of it soon as well. Be on the lookout for excess white mucous on the fish and labored breathing just to be sure

+1

 

[New9742]

I would guess that but it could have still been something like brook, but if it is brook the other fish is very likely to show signs of it soon as well. Be on the lookout for excess white mucous on the fish and labored breathing just to be sure

I'll be sure to monitor. I'll try to upgrade my tank ASAP in the meantime to a 5 gallon or so. That's realistically about the biggest size I can get and monitor/ do large water changes if needed with what I have.

I don't think my LFS have any real type of quarantine, but I'll be sure to ask next time I'm in.

I will keep my eyes peeled for Brook! I don't think I have it still, I haven't noticed coloration differences on the fish or signs of anything else (but again, what do I actually know ha ha). If new things develop, I'll be sure to update this thread.

Thank you all for the input and help, Sharkbait19, Crustaceon, and dedragon.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

what jumps out at me is the 2 fish in a 1 gallon tank. The small tank would be very stressful in itself, and if you are not doing daily water changes the water can foul up pretty fast, adding even more stress. Its not an ideal QT size

 

[Nemo&Friends]

As the other clown is ok so far, I am not sure it is ammonia or water condition that caused the death. Your tank being so small and clown being very aggressive, it may very well be aggression of the bigger fish, or severe stress that killed your smaller fish.
It is not their diet. In my experience, clown eat everything, and you do not need to give them live baby shrimp. Flake or any frozen food would do.

 

[New9742]

what jumps out at me is the 2 fish in a 1 gallon tank. The small tank would be very stressful in itself, and if you are not doing daily water changes the water can foul up pretty fast, adding even more stress. Its not an ideal QT size

I really thought the small size of the clowns would be ok in this tank for the duration of the quarantine. I can see now where I was wrong with that assumption as I didn't realize the small size would cause so much stress. I'm going to work on upgrading the QT to a more appropriate size.

As the other clown is ok so far, I am not sure it is ammonia or water condition that caused the death. Your tank being so small and clown being very aggressive, it may very well be aggression of the bigger fish, or severe stress that killed your smaller fish.
It is not their diet. In my experience, clown eat everything, and you do not need to give them live baby shrimp. Flake or any frozen food would do.

I did notice occasionally that the bigger one did chase the smaller one for a second or two each time. But for the most part it was a rare behavior I've observed only a few times and they seemed to pretty happily cohabitate otherwise (sharing the anemone and otherwise just seeming to be ok with the other around). I never noticed any open wounds or injured fins on either of them, especially the smaller one that died. Thanks for the input on the diet, that makes me feel a bit better knowing they likely ate the RotiFeast and OysterFeast and I just couldn't fully tell.