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Sallstrom
2500 Club Member
Thank you so much!!
I hope to update this thread more often soon!
Swedish fish - behind the scenes rebuilding a public aquarium
- Thread starter Sallstrom
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I hope to update this thread more often soon!
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Sallstrom
2500 Club Member
As always when we start new tanks, I like to start with water from a well working tank. I'm not that into cycling new tanks..
This tanks are 130L each, and 100L sump. So it was a small water change for the 10000L reef.
Will put in some rocks or filter mats in the sump later.
The plan is to have Acropora colonies going in this system for at least four week, with a potassium level somewhere around 800-1000ppm. NO FISH OR OTHER ANIMALS THAN CORALS IN THIS SYSTEM. Just to be clear..
This way I hope we can get rid of Acropora eating flatworms, AEFW. It's handy to have this tank close by, if we need some good water
No corals yet, need to fix temp control and some other stuff first.
Back to the NO3 producers
The primary inorganic nitrogen species which is secreted by animals in saltwater is NH3/NH4. In the word animal - I include the heterotrophic bacteria that´s around - the decaying bacteria. Depending on pH and temperature - a certain part of this complex (NH3/NH4) exist as a gas (NH3 or ammonia gas or ammoniac). This species is the toxic one. It has to been taken away ASAP. The problem is that the ratio between this two N species is in percentage and the amount of each species depend mostly on pH and temperature. If one of these species disappear (example - NH3 get aerated out) the remain will directly convert into the same percentage as before. As an example - we read 1 ppm NH3/NH4 - pH 8 and temperature 25 degree C - the ratio is around 5 % as NH3 (means 0.05 ppm NH3) and 95% as NH4 (means 0.95 ppm NH4). we aerate out this 0.05 ppm NH3 - the remaining 0.95 ppm NH4 will direct convert in to 0.05 % NH3 and 0.95 % NH4 - it means - in the next step we will have 0.0475 ppm NH3 and 0.9025 ppm NH4 - the same pH and temperature.
The other pathway for reducing NH3/NH4 is the bacterial oxidation of NH3/NH4 to first NO2 and last the nontoxic NO3. This bacteria demand few heterotrophic bacteria, space, oxygen, inorganic nutrients and NH3/NH4 or (in the second step) NO2 as energy. In system with plenty of NH3/NH4(read lot of fish and a high feeding rate), higher oxygen levels than around 5 ppm and other inorganic nutrients - space can be limited and much of the free NH3/NH4 will be lowered by gas exchange in the skimmer especially if it is oversized. If you in this system will introduce a nitrification filter like a trickle (expend the space and the oxygen levels) you will probably see an higher NO3 production because the nitrification process (IMO) is faster than a normal gas exchanger process of NH3. The pros for using a nitrification filter in this case is that you will limit the time for potential facing high NH3 concentrations. If you have a system with low feeding and low load and therefore - the nitrification process is not space limited - you will probably not see any more NO3 even if you put in a trickle filter which both optimize the gas exchange and the nitrification. IMO - it is only in the case of space limited nitrification and normal working skimmers that you will see a higher NO3 production and a bio filter can been seen as an nitrification production unit. The nitrification process always produce NO3 but with systems of bad nitrification rate (space or/and oxygen defiency) and a good gas exchanging (oversized skimmer) adding a trickle filter can rise the NO3 residues. But in a system with enough space and/or good oxygen concentrations - adding a trickle filter will - IMO - not rise the NO3 very much.
Sincerely Lasse
The primary inorganic nitrogen species which is secreted by animals in saltwater is NH3/NH4. In the word animal - I include the heterotrophic bacteria that´s around - the decaying bacteria. Depending on pH and temperature - a certain part of this complex (NH3/NH4) exist as a gas (NH3 or ammonia gas or ammoniac). This species is the toxic one. It has to been taken away ASAP. The problem is that the ratio between this two N species is in percentage and the amount of each species depend mostly on pH and temperature. If one of these species disappear (example - NH3 get aerated out) the remain will directly convert into the same percentage as before. As an example - we read 1 ppm NH3/NH4 - pH 8 and temperature 25 degree C - the ratio is around 5 % as NH3 (means 0.05 ppm NH3) and 95% as NH4 (means 0.95 ppm NH4). we aerate out this 0.05 ppm NH3 - the remaining 0.95 ppm NH4 will direct convert in to 0.05 % NH3 and 0.95 % NH4 - it means - in the next step we will have 0.0475 ppm NH3 and 0.9025 ppm NH4 - the same pH and temperature.
The other pathway for reducing NH3/NH4 is the bacterial oxidation of NH3/NH4 to first NO2 and last the nontoxic NO3. This bacteria demand few heterotrophic bacteria, space, oxygen, inorganic nutrients and NH3/NH4 or (in the second step) NO2 as energy. In system with plenty of NH3/NH4(read lot of fish and a high feeding rate), higher oxygen levels than around 5 ppm and other inorganic nutrients - space can be limited and much of the free NH3/NH4 will be lowered by gas exchange in the skimmer especially if it is oversized. If you in this system will introduce a nitrification filter like a trickle (expend the space and the oxygen levels) you will probably see an higher NO3 production because the nitrification process (IMO) is faster than a normal gas exchanger process of NH3. The pros for using a nitrification filter in this case is that you will limit the time for potential facing high NH3 concentrations. If you have a system with low feeding and low load and therefore - the nitrification process is not space limited - you will probably not see any more NO3 even if you put in a trickle filter which both optimize the gas exchange and the nitrification. IMO - it is only in the case of space limited nitrification and normal working skimmers that you will see a higher NO3 production and a bio filter can been seen as an nitrification production unit. The nitrification process always produce NO3 but with systems of bad nitrification rate (space or/and oxygen defiency) and a good gas exchanging (oversized skimmer) adding a trickle filter can rise the NO3 residues. But in a system with enough space and/or good oxygen concentrations - adding a trickle filter will - IMO - not rise the NO3 very much.
Sincerely Lasse
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Brew12
Electrical Gru
Lasse, isn't it true that both coral and algae will also directly reduce NH3/NH4 and help reduce the amount of NO3 that is formed?
Dr. Dendrostein
Marine fish monthly
Lasse is it possible to use a media in a wet/dry filter, that can harbor bacteria to help consume NO3, like using crush coral or clay, instead of plastic bio balls, that are hollow in center. Will that work?
Yes - but if it is good that they have assible NH3/NH4 or not I do not know. Probably it is algaes preferred inorganic nitrogen source. Some of them can't either take up NO3 - they lack an enzyme. From freshwater it's known that NH3/NH4 promote unwanted microalgae growth. I have always try to minimize NH3/NH4 but I know others that use urea instead of NO3 when you get low in inorganic nitrogen (urea converts to NH3/NH4 rather fast in water) Basically - your right
Probably not in a practical run. Theoretical - maybe
Sincerely Lasse
Brew12
Electrical Gru
Thanks, I wanted to make sure I was understanding this correctly. I often recommend people add macro algae to a tank if they are having ammonia issues from not having cycled properly. It always seems to help so I appreciate the clarification!
In my system - the refugium is situated direct after the display tank. It's no coincidence. The reason is that any NH3/NH4 molecule that will come from the DT will either be captured by the Chaeto for growth or oxidized by nitrification in the big tangling of chaeto and the free oxygen from the photosynthesis 0f the chaeto
Sincerely Lasse
Gregg @ ADP
Valuable Member
The coral itself is considered a microbiome, replete with a number of microbes that perform all kinds of functions.
It appears there are sufficient nitrifying bacteria within the GVC of the coral to convert the ammonia produced by the coral into a nitrogen source the coral zooxanthellae can utilize for growth.
Can the nitrifiers in the coral remove extra NH3 from the water column and convert it internally beyond what is produced by the coral itself? Good question.
But it does appear that this internal processing is a design to allow for nourishing zooxanthellae via conversion of NH3 into NO3 in a eutrophic environment that in and of itself lacks the nutrients to maintain that level of primary productivity.
My Bold
Are you sure on this? (the bolds) because what I remember - neither algae or plants are able to take up NO3 because they can´t be transported inside the cells. Instead - if there is only NO3 - they need to convert that to NH3/NH4 before uptake. Not all algae can do that.
Sincerely Lasse
Are you sure on this? (the bolds) because what I remember - neither algae or plants are able to take up NO3 because they can´t be transported inside the cells. Instead - if there is only NO3 - they need to convert that to NH3/NH4 before uptake. Not all algae can do that.
Sincerely Lasse
Gregg @ ADP
Valuable Member
As you are probably well aware by now, I’m often way out over my skis when talking about micro and molecular biology. This may be another one of those times.
My understanding is that most (if not all) plants and algae have adapted to utilizing NO3 for a nitrogen source for 2 reasons: 1) NH3/4 is toxic to many (not all) types of algae and plants, and 2) there’s just way more NO3 around than there is NH3/4.
As always, it’s proteins to the rescue. Most algae have proteins to reduce the NO3 into NO2 (nitrate reductase) and NO2 into NH3 (nitrite reductase), using NADH or NADPH as electron receptors. This happens within the cytoplasm. Given the number of different types of algae on Earth, naturally there are other mechanisms and pathways used, but I believe this is the most common way that nitrogen is derived from NO3.
I think in unicellular algae/cyano, the pathway is the same but there are some differences in how it’s regulated (if it’s regulated) and how the nitrogen is transported/stored.
To the part you bolded, I’m sure there is some direct ammonia assimilation by zooxanthellae within coral tissue as well as NO3.
Don’t quote me on this, but I’m pretty sure that’s how it works. My assumption is that zooxanthellae wouldn’t be any different.
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Gregg @ ADP
Valuable Member
A quick edit, because I hate making this mistake:
I meant ‘oligotrophic’, not ‘eutrophic’
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Sallstrom
2500 Club Member
I leave the nitrogen cycle to @Lasse and talk about our coral quarantine/treatment instead
Some corals are in place now. Want to try different species to see how they react.
I did the first addition of potassium chloride just now. Will check in on the corals later today. I started with a raise of about 150 ppm potassium. I will go up to 800 ppm, and the start value is about 400 ppm. Next dose tomorrow.
Haven't decided yet on how to keep the water quality good for 4 weeks. If we change water I need to add more KCl, but then we soon need to buy more! Another option is to add some Core7-balling and don't change any water. We'll see how the water and the corals do after a couple of days.
Some corals are in place now. Want to try different species to see how they react.
I did the first addition of potassium chloride just now. Will check in on the corals later today. I started with a raise of about 150 ppm potassium. I will go up to 800 ppm, and the start value is about 400 ppm. Next dose tomorrow.
Haven't decided yet on how to keep the water quality good for 4 weeks. If we change water I need to add more KCl, but then we soon need to buy more!
Another option is to add some Core7-balling and don't change any water. We'll see how the water and the corals do after a couple of days.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
@Sallstrom Are calcium reactors ever used in a facility like yours?
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Sallstrom
2500 Club Member
Yes, we got three calcium reactors running right now. Two Deltec PF1370 and one Schuran Jetstream 2. The two large ones(Deltec) are for the 10000L reef and the 26000L shark tank. Schuran is for the "room devider" reef. But we also top up with Core7 to avoid running the calcium reactors at maximum(we almost cracked the schuran due to high pressure(strong dosing pump)).
First - my answer in post 470 can be missunderstod - or I write wrong because of lack of time My bold
What I meant was
But it is good with this type of discussions because they force you to upgrade your knowledge. I was not aware that this topic have been up to discussion during the last years. But - IMO - my basic understanding that NH3/NH4 cost lesser amount of energy seems to still be valid. This because NH4 can directly be in use for the synthesis of amino acids but on the other hand NO3 have to be reduced in two steps to NH4 before any amino acid will be formed. However - as usual - to much of the good things can be bad. This because NH4 can be transferred into toxic NH3 if the pH rise inside the cell. It seems also be species specific - I think that many of us (that still remember how the countryside looks like) have notice where the stock of nettles are largest - just outside the old outdoor toilet or near the manure pile.
Here is one article I found about preferred species for one algae
Sincerely Lasse
My boldWhat I meant was
But it is good with this type of discussions because they force you to upgrade your knowledge. I was not aware that this topic have been up to discussion during the last years. But - IMO - my basic understanding that NH3/NH4 cost lesser amount of energy seems to still be valid. This because NH4 can directly be in use for the synthesis of amino acids but on the other hand NO3 have to be reduced in two steps to NH4 before any amino acid will be formed. However - as usual - to much of the good things can be bad. This because NH4 can be transferred into toxic NH3 if the pH rise inside the cell. It seems also be species specific - I think that many of us (that still remember how the countryside looks like) have notice where the stock of nettles are largest - just outside the old outdoor toilet or near the manure pile.
Here is one article I found about preferred species for one algae
Sincerely Lasse
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Gregg @ ADP
Valuable Member
You’re absolutely right about the energy costs of deriving nitrogen from NH vs NO. What’s easier to deal with? A few H+ ions (which are ubiquitous in cells), or O- ions with a bunch of electrons bouncing around causing problems?First - my answer in post 470 can be missunderstod - or I write wrong because of lack of time
What I meant was
But it is good with this type of discussions because they force you to upgrade your knowledge. I was not aware that this topic have been up to discussion during the last years. But - IMO - my basic understanding that NH3/NH4 cost lesser amount of energy seems to still be valid. This because NH4 can directly be in use for the synthesis of amino acids but on the other hand NO3 have to be reduced in two steps to NH4 before any amino acid will be formed. However - as usual - to much of the good things can be bad. This because NH4 can be transferred into toxic NH3 if the pH rise inside the cell. It seems also be species specific - I think that many of us (that still remember how the countryside looks like) have notice where the stock of nettles are largest - just outside the old outdoor toilet or near the manure pile.
Here is one article I found about preferred species for one algae
Sincerely Lasse
As I understand it, what it comes down to more than toxicity of NH3, is just relative availability. NO3 is everywhere and ‘stable’ (or not likely to be further oxidized), whereas NH3/4 is quickly utilized by your nitrifiers. I think from an energetics perspective, as you pointed out, algae would prefer NH4 (notwithstanding the potential issues with pH ^ w/in the cell), but how many places are there where there is plentiful, stable NH4? Not many. Conversely, NO3 is more or less abundant in many soils and bodies of water.
So, as with a lot of things in metabolism, it’s a ‘gotta spend money to make money’ deal.
By the way, after I got home last night, I jumped on Google Scholar and searched ‘nitrate reductase algae’. Oh, man. If you wander in there, I would recommend brewing a fresh pot of coffee beforehand...you might be there awhile.
najer
Valuable Member
I leave the nitrogen cycle to @Lasse and talk about our coral quarantine/treatment instead
Some corals are in place now. Want to try different species to see how they react.
I did the first addition of potassium chloride just now. Will check in on the corals later today. I started with a raise of about 150 ppm potassium. I will go up to 800 ppm, and the start value is about 400 ppm. Next dose tomorrow.
Haven't decided yet on how to keep the water quality good for 4 weeks. If we change water I need to add more KCl, but then we soon need to buy more!
Keep us updated, I started at 430 and went off scale (only goes to 500 on this kit), first dose took me to 480 so next increase should have been less than 600, loving following this!
Great read so far. I love following along on the journey.
Maybe you could raise some money by selling sponsorships and patronages of coral colonies. It would take some marketing and backstory (I suppose you could embellish here a bit).
The corals could be catalogued with photos and origin/stats, new placement location in your future display, all posted online and with an option to sponsor the coral's move to the new tank. Maybe if you contact Melissa Etheridge she will let you use that sad pet adoption song ;Woot!
Anyway, grateful for the write up and glad you guys are able to make such a fantastic display for your community.
Maybe you could raise some money by selling sponsorships and patronages of coral colonies. It would take some marketing and backstory (I suppose you could embellish here a bit
). The corals could be catalogued with photos and origin/stats, new placement location in your future display, all posted online and with an option to sponsor the coral's move to the new tank. Maybe if you contact Melissa Etheridge she will let you use that sad pet adoption song ;Woot!
Anyway, grateful for the write up and glad you guys are able to make such a fantastic display for your community.
Your right - nitrification will take away some NH3/NH4 but I´m sure that both micro and macro algae will take up NH3/NH4 too. There is rather many aquarist from Germany that does urea instead of dosing nitrate because it will form NH3/NH4 rather fast after entering water (bacteria breakdown).
Sincerely Lasse
Sincerely Lasse
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