Testing of Chemiclean

[Jay Hemdal]

Here is my question to the chemist type folks... since I need an exact match to compare FTIR, is this even worth doing? I imagine that salts will mess up the infrared, right?

I suppose that we could assume that most of what is left is salts and filler and add salt to the ChemiClean and test it, but it would seem that the types matter, right?

Is this as far as I go? Is there any other tests that can be done on the substances?

Are there any known FTIR or NMR of different antibiotics that we can compare ChemiClean to if I get few graphs and the raw data?

@Randy Holmes-Farley
@taricha
@Dan_P

FWIW - I was able to get some doxycycline and amoxicillin for fish treatment from a friend and they did not smell like these three. That is as good as NMR, right? If anybody has used ChemiClean or any of these other EM products, they really have a distinct smell. Those others also do not reported to make the skimmer go crazy like EM does, but I did not test them. Maybe I can ask @Jay Hemdal if remembers any skimmers overflowing if he ever treated with other antibiotics other than EM.

Ok - I have to go and do my water change and put some GAC on this tank.

I’ve always used expired veterinary EM at 12 ppm to control cyano in FO tanks. I’ve never used it in a reef, or in a tank with a skimmer, so I don’t know about skimmer activity, sorry.

Reverse engineering has always been a fun challenge for me. I recall one Aiptasia killing product that was apparently calcium hydroxide and Elmer’s glue to keep it in place (grin).

None of these aquarium companies have real labs - they just skim the literature for ideas.

Edit: since Aquarium Systems and Marineland closed their small labs.

Jay

 

[Miami Reef]

It is like if you asked a kid if they ate all of the chocolate and they told you that they didn't eat any of the ice cream.

I think a better analogy is asking if someone ate chocolate, but they answer they didn’t eat the white chocolate.

 

[jda]

I’ve always used expired veterinary EM at 12 ppm to control cyano in FO tanks. I’ve never used it in a reef, or in a tank with a skimmer, so I don’t know about skimmer activity, sorry.

Reverse engineering has always been a fun challenge for me. I recall one Aiptasia killing product that was apparently calcium hydroxide and Elmer’s glue to keep it in place (grin).

None of these aquarium companies have real labs - they just skim the literature for ideas.

Jay

You mean other than Underwater Creations lab where they engineered a new bacteria that only fed on marine algae, but could not multiply in saltwater so it needed to be dosed again and again, and also could not be detected in a bottle?

Seriously, though... do you have a test kit/method to figure out the 12 ppm of EM, or do you just the math?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

You mean other than Underwater Creations lab where they engineered a new bacteria that only fed on marine algae, but could not multiply in saltwater so it needed to be dosed again and again, and also could not be detected in a bottle?

Seriously, though... do you have a test kit/method to figure out the 12 ppm of EM, or do you just the math?

I just calculate it: 12 ppm * net volume of the tank in gallons / 266 = grams of EM (minus any binders/excipients)

Jay

 

[taricha]

The regular 10 gallon dose of the API erythromycin is about 2g powder, with the erythromycin making up 200 mg. The regular 10 gallon dose of chemiclean measures at about 50 mg total powder. So even if it were pure erythromycin compound, it would only be a quarter of the amount of EM as the API standard dose.
Said another way, the API dose is ~5mg/L of erythromycin, while the chemiclean dose is 1.3mg/L of total powder.
Can we get chemiclean-like results from API erythromycin at 1/4 of API standard dose? If not - chemiclean is probably some other more potent medication.

 

[jda]

I used 2/3 of the API dose to kill cyano. Who knows if half, or less, would have worked. We also have no idea if there is filler in the CC.

Does anybody know of an archive of graphs/tests for various antibiotics? The lab at CSU appears to have a pretty full set of equipment. I can test just the ChemiClean if we can compare it to something. Even if not NMR or FTIR, I can see if they can test a different way.

 

[jda]

Here is what we know...

ChemiClean - nothing on refractometer, no phosphates
API - lots of salt, lots of phosphates
Tetra - nothing on refractometer, lots of phosphates

 

[Mark Gray]

Interesting following along

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If the other components of an EM formulation are organic, then at best IR can match exact formulations (all peaks the same) or can rule out EM in a formulation (big EM peaks are missing). Otherwise, It is very hard to say if EM is present in a mix with other organics that may be providing the peaks.

IR spectra of EM should be readily available online, though may take some searching to find it. Would likely be in older literature.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

EM FT-IR:

Erythromycin

webbook.nist.gov

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Quantification of erythromycin in pharmaceutical formulation by transmission Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy

A simple, cost-effective and environmental friendly analytical method was developed for the quantification of erythromycin in tablet formulation using…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/FTIR-spectra-of-erythromycin-standards-in-mid-infrared-region-4000-400cm-1_fig2_236021391

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW - I was able to get some doxycycline and amoxicillin for fish treatment from a friend and they did not smell like these three. That is as good as NMR, right? If anybody has used ChemiClean or any of these other EM products, they really have a distinct smell.

I know you were being sarcastic, but just to comment on the smell issue. Smells of any antibiotic are going to come from impurities or breakdown products in it, not the actual antibiotic which are always too high in molecular weight to enter the gas phase and be smellable.

Thus, smells may be very dependent on how the antibiotic is synthesized, and what else might be added to the dose (fillers, etc.).

FWIW, I would add color to that same description when talking about erythromycin, since pure erythromycin will not absorb visible light.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, erythromycin has a UV absorbance at about 285 nm, which may be useful in home analysis if anyone has a UV spectrometer.

http://lawdata.com.tw/File/PDF/J991/A04971501_010.pdf

"Erythromycin can be determined by direct measuring the absorbances at the wavelength of 285 nm..."

Note though, that proteins and other molecules can also absorb in this range.

 

[MyFirstCar]

FWIW, erythromycin has a UV absorbance at about 285 nm, which may be useful in home analysis if anyone has a UV spectrometer.

http://lawdata.com.tw/File/PDF/J991/A04971501_010.pdf

"Erythromycin can be determined by direct measuring the absorbances at the wavelength of 285 nm..."

Note though, that proteins and other molecules can also absorb in this range.

I have access to one, but it's not really reliable above 350 (old machine). Any other UV/via peaks?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have access to one, but it's not really reliable above 350 (old machine). Any other UV/via peaks?

You mean not reliable below 350 nm? No, there are no peaks above the 285 nm peak.

 

[MyFirstCar]

Anything with a shorter wavelength than 350 just doesn't seem to have a good result on mine, but it goes all the way down to 900nm.

 

[MnFish1]

The use of nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy in the detection of drug intoxication - PubMed

The use of nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) spectroscopy as a method for drug analysis has the advantages of reduced pre-analytical preparation time and the potential to detect and quantitate drug conjugates and metabolites simultaneously. NMR was investigated as a method to screen for organic...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[taricha]

If you look at the solubility of chemiclean, I think it may be pointing against erythromycin...
I noticed that chemiclean is really water-soluble. So I wanted to see just how soluble.

you can dissolve the entire 10 gallon dose (1 scoop = ~50mg) in 0.10mL of distilled water quickly with no apparent leftovers.
googling says that EM is very low solubility in water like 2mg/mL but very high solubility in acetone, alcohols etc.

top: a 50mg scoop in each tube
center: dissolves totally and quickly in 0.10mL of water (left), faster than in 0.10 mL acetone (right)
bottom: after a few minutes, dissolves totally in 0.10mL of both water and acetone.


If erythromycin is really only soluble at ~2mg/mL, then only 0.2mg should have dissolved - not the full 50mg scoop.

As far as the question of whether the chemiclean powder is mostly ingredient or fillers, the single dose powder itself is ~50mg meant for 10 gallons of water, so it's only ~1.3mg/L of total powder. Most cyano toxicity studies with erythromycin put the values for acute effects on cyano at low single digits ppm. Not too much room for fillers there.

@osprey101 had some earlier suggestions for alternate antibiotics to consider

And now that I dig some more, tylosin tartrate also matches, and is a salt, unlike sulfamethoxazole.

https://chemi-pure.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/ChemiClean_SDS_US_122815_FINAL.pdf

https://northamerica.covetrus.com/content/sds/056666.pdf

 

[MnFish1]

If you look at the solubility of chemiclean, I think it may be pointing against erythromycin...
I noticed that chemiclean is really water-soluble. So I wanted to see just how soluble.

you can dissolve the entire 10 gallon dose (1 scoop = ~50mg) in 0.10mL of distilled water quickly with no apparent leftovers.
googling says that EM is very low solubility in water like 2mg/mL but very high solubility in acetone, alcohols etc.

top: a 50mg scoop in each tube
center: dissolves totally and quickly in 0.10mL of water (left), faster than in 0.10 mL acetone (right)
bottom: after a few minutes, dissolves totally in 0.10mL of both water and acetone.


If erythromycin is really only soluble at ~2mg/mL, then only 0.2mg should have dissolved - not the full 50mg scoop.

As far as the question of whether the chemiclean powder is mostly ingredient or fillers, the single dose powder itself is ~50mg meant for 10 gallons of water, so it's only ~1.3mg/L of total powder. Most cyano toxicity studies with erythromycin put the values for acute effects on cyano at low single digits ppm. Not too much room for fillers there.

@osprey101 had some earlier suggestions for alternate antibiotics to consider

You like to use a lot of (potential - but not likely) - cause and effect issues. Someone - pay to analyze the compound - otherwise this is turning into another vibrant theme - with multiple possibilities. OR - the OP should call the company - and post the response. So - Lets assume its erythromycin xxxxxxxxx (salt) who cares. If it works in their tank who cares what is the agenda. I'm sorry just don't get it. But Before posting this experiment - I would have contacted the company, explained what you were going to do - and asked them. If its erythromycin, and erythromycin does not affect the tank - who cares. This is another tempest in a teapot. IMHO