The WORST advice EVER!!!!

[MnFish1]

From a 40,000ft perspective.... I would say the WORST advice is....

.... from posters who think successful reefing is a matter of SCIENCE

I think there are thousand of tiny factors that make up a mature tank. You could have two identical tanks side-by-side, and tankA grows SPS like crazy and tankB SPS recedes and dies....even though the tanks are IDENTICAL.

I see far tooooooo much ART and tiny hidden husbandry skills beat out SCIENCE every time.

So when I read a poster who says, "Scientifically you should do steps 1, 2, 3, 4" .... its probably 75% great advice, 25% pure luck to get it CORRECT in your own tank.

I think that what we do should be 'based' on science. but each individual tank is an art - the art of choosing which fish, coral etc - though those are also based science. Alkalinity testing is based on science. Etc etc.

If what you are saying is that there is no 'cookbook' approach that leads to a successful reef 'all of the time' I agree. Most of that though is not the problem of the cookbook or the 'science' its the fault of the cook's (so to speak) interpretation.

 

[HawaiianReef]

Morton Salt.....

 

[jgvergo]

Can't say I got bad advice. Most of what I know I've learned here.

 

[sharpimage]

Here, have a free fish tank. It will be fun and relaxing.

 

[brandon429]

working against the grain in the hobby is usually 95/5

meaning to get any changes you have to continually, consistently work against the offers of the day to forge something new once a need is perceived and only 5% care about the new direction. most of the work is done in private message exchanges, the 95% don't readily want change (see all forms of deep sand bed advice from the late 90s and early 2000's for example, nowadays that's being phased out for cleaner system approach)

so in mentioning my take on the uglies phasing, its not meant to make enemies its the reverse engineering of this below, a work thread. I invited people to post any form of wreck they want, the before pics. We apply about 4 running consistent methods to get the after pics...I realize there are many ways to reef but apparently there aren't that many ways to manage 23 pages of mixed invasions.

If anyone has some alternates, post up
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445


Many may not like the method we use to cause people to be happy there, that's ok. even our method needs to be a timeline on the evolutionary chart, so get to posting alt work don't just post thread opinions. make a log of what we recommend, and run it five years. then we'll know a pattern.

In the end, its simply incredibly hard to manage work threads where one invites a challenge and is locked into traceable actions just in one place, its total accountability. I think that if anyone here sets one up and tries to manage these invasions without physical access/only through water adjustments they wont get anywhere near the timeframes and fixes we post.

It changes the way you look at the hobby, and it darn sure changes how you'll start the hobby...you want people to stop self-invading. You get to thinking along the way: ya know, you could show up having done like 10% effort vs just totally letting things go. I advocate hand guiding out the little invasion, to avoid some of those jobs we worked there. In the end I know each of these entrants was instructed to self invade right from the start, from very passionate folks we can see posting here. its possible those giving the advice and doing the cleanup aren't seeing eye to eye

The advice I gave on the first response here is what I feel would have prevented 90% of those tanks from ever needing our back alley works thread.

 

[lbiminiblue]

working against the grain in the hobby is usually 95/5

meaning to get any changes you have to continually, consistently work against the offers of the day to forge something new once a need is perceived

so in mentioning my take on the uglies phasing, its not meant to make enemies its the reverse engineering of this below, a work thread. I invited people to post any form of wreck they want, the before pics. We apply about 4 running consistent methods to get the after pics...I realize there are many ways to reef but apparently there aren't that many ways to manage 23 pages of mixed invasions.

If anyone has some alternates, post up
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445


Many may not like the method we use to cause people to be happy there, that's ok. even our method needs to be a timeline on the evolutionary chart, so get to posting alt work

No one here needs to prove anything to you. You tout your method as one of very few that are able to successfully manage “invasions” (please use a better term as that is a terrible way to describe algae in tanks), and have several stories of people whom it worked for.

There are other methods for algae control, you don’t need to crucify yourself to try and prove your point.

 

[Bleigh]

From a 40,000ft perspective.... I would say the WORST advice is....

.... from posters who think successful reefing is a matter of SCIENCE

I think there are thousand of tiny factors that make up a mature tank. You could have two identical tanks side-by-side, and tankA grows SPS like crazy and tankB SPS recedes and dies....even though the tanks are IDENTICAL.

I see far tooooooo much ART and tiny hidden husbandry skills beat out SCIENCE every time.

So when I read a poster who says, "Scientifically you should do steps 1, 2, 3, 4" .... its probably 75% great advice, 25% pure luck to get it CORRECT in your own tank.



.

I think that is because there is never 100% pure yield. Just because the math works out one way, doesn't mean there's not other things going on that you LITERALLY cannot take into account. lol... so any pure scientific numbers should really have an error range. :P

 

[Bleigh]

Worst advice I got was from someone who lives down the street. He has a 10 gallon fresh water tank, and I'll be honest, he keeps it looking pristine. But everything he tells me is so off, and he laughs and then explains why he's right in a patronizing voice.

I told him I was planning on getting a bigger tank (200+ gallons) and some of the things I need to do before hand. One of those is install an RODI filter. He asked, incredulously, why I thought I needed one. I said doing water changes would be a nightmare cost wise and time wise, not to mention the amount of containers I'd need if I was buying it all premixed in the store, AND losses due to evaporation. He said, the evaporation wont be THAT much and reef tanks don't ever need water changes (while laughing and shaking his head at me like I had no clue what I was doing)...

I am sure some people can manage their tank without water changes, but I suspect those are mature tanks who likely have reactors or some other way to to replace minerals.

He then suggested a specific star fish that ate corals (can't remember which now) that was in the LFS. When I told him I couldn't get that kind because it would prey on my corals, he said that they were super pretty and that a star fish is what made a salt water tank (I thought it was pretty too and had googled it) . That's when I agreed, thanked him for his advice, and decided I'd avoid any further conversations about aquariums with him.

 

[rkpetersen]

Worst advice I got was from someone who lives down the street. He has a 10 gallon fresh water tank, and I'll be honest, he keeps it looking pristine. But everything he tells me is so off, and he laughs and then explains why he's right in a patronizing voice.

I told him I was planning on getting a bigger tank (200+ gallons) and some of the things I need to do before hand. One of those is install an RODI filter. He asked, incredulously, why I thought I needed one. I said doing water changes would be a nightmare cost wise and time wise, not to mention the amount of containers I'd need if I was buying it all premixed in the store, AND losses due to evaporation. He said, the evaporation wont be THAT much and reef tanks don't ever need water changes (while laughing and shaking his head at me like I had no clue what I was doing)...

Ugh, a 'mansplainer'. I'm sure I'm guilty of it from time to time too, but I try not to as it just comes off as so condescending.

 

[MnFish1]

working against the grain in the hobby is usually 95/5

meaning to get any changes you have to continually, consistently work against the offers of the day to forge something new once a need is perceived and only 5% care about the new direction. most of the work is done in private message exchanges, the 95% don't readily want change (see all forms of deep sand bed advice from the late 90s and early 2000's for example, nowadays that's being phased out for cleaner system approach)

so in mentioning my take on the uglies phasing, its not meant to make enemies its the reverse engineering of this below, a work thread. I invited people to post any form of wreck they want, the before pics. We apply about 4 running consistent methods to get the after pics...I realize there are many ways to reef but apparently there aren't that many ways to manage 23 pages of mixed invasions.

If anyone has some alternates, post up
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445


Many may not like the method we use to cause people to be happy there, that's ok. even our method needs to be a timeline on the evolutionary chart, so get to posting alt work don't just post thread opinions. make a log of what we recommend, and run it five years. then we'll know a pattern. if someone has been reefing 20 yrs and knows an ideal direction to be taking, make a work thread/ lets see.

In the end, its simply incredibly hard to manage work threads where one invites a challenge and is locked into traceable actions just in one place, its total accountability.

It changes the way you look at the hobby, and it darn sure changes how you'll start the hobby...you want them all to stop self-invading. You get to thinking along the way: ya know, you could show up having done like 10% effort vs just totally letting things go. I advocate hand guiding out the little invasion, to avoid some of those jobs we worked there.

The advice I gave on the first response here is what I feel would have prevented 90% of those tanks from ever needing our back alley works thread.

@brandon429 Maybe I'm wrong - but wasn't what started this related to the fact that people dont understand what you mean sometimes? I reread the post above 5 times - and I still am not exactly sure what

Work Threads
locked into traceable actions (in this context)
self-invading
back-alley works thread

And several other sentences that don't make complete sense. You know exactly what you mean - most readers do not.

In all honesty - I think the people that mentioned your advice as 'the worst advice' in this thread should realize that thats a personal attack and not really fair game on R2R.

As to your ideas - I think you can clean a whole sand bed with no problem
I think keeping adequate flow (or turkey basteing or however you want to do it) is good advice. That said - I also think there are multiple ways to skin the same cat.

I'm not sure where the 'bad advice is' - but perhaps its just me.

 

[siggy]

installed a Cheato refugium when it was not needed, Royal PITA

 

[brandon429]

MN that's unhelpful/distracting / derailing --- but that's typical for our interactions

For you to repeatedly ask the same things in new threads we discussed a year ago is just more grandstanding, you know where I stand. to ask again is repetitive and not interesting, work links however are interesting.

you either have some tanks you've worked with collected for review or you don't, its that simple.

above is an example of a work thread, as well as a friendly request for any other people to link any work they've done. That second part is clearly not going to occur, the part where others link works that show why purposefully invading a tank is wise or causes you less headaches.

 

[MnFish1]

MN that's unhelpful/distracting / derailing --- but that's typical for our interactions

For you to repeatedly ask the same things in new threads we discussed a year ago is just more grandstanding, you know where I stand. to ask again is repetitive and not interesting, work links however are interesting.

you either have some tanks you've worked with collected for review or you don't, its that simple.

above is an example of a work thread, as well as a friendly request for any other people to link any work they've done. That second part is clearly not going to occur, the part where others link works that show why purposefully invading a tank is wise or causes you less headaches.

ACTUALLY - I complimented you LOL. Im - not sure where you're coming from. Maybe you misread what I wrote. I suggested that the people that stated your advice was the 'worst ever' were 'wrong'. I wrote a few of the many things on which I agree with you - and stated others may not understand the wording you're using. I know we've discussed it - but many other people may have not understood it. The was my point. I said I didnt think you gave bad advice. re-read my post maybe you'll get what I meant

 

[lbiminiblue]

@brandon429 Maybe I'm wrong - but wasn't what started this related to the fact that people dont understand what you mean sometimes? I reread the post above 5 times - and I still am not exactly sure what

Work Threads
locked into traceable actions (in this context)
self-invading
back-alley works thread

And several other sentences that don't make complete sense. You know exactly what you mean - most readers do not.

In all honesty - I think the people that mentioned your advice as 'the worst advice' in this thread should realize that thats a personal attack and not really fair game on R2R.

As to your ideas - I think you can clean a whole sand bed with no problem
I think keeping adequate flow (or turkey basteing or however you want to do it) is good advice. That said - I also think there are multiple ways to skin the same cat.

I'm not sure where the 'bad advice is' - but perhaps its just me.

Because he’s on the forum it’s against the rules? Plenty other of these posts would qualify as personal attacks, but that’s not an issue it seems, if you’re not a forum member.

 

[brandon429]

I don't mind if he keeps reposting the same distractions, its not really helping the topic here and MN was already clear where I stand, he's challenged me on the same issue about 10 times last year alone. Im not sure how focusing on my type wording is helping the thread direction, unless you are interested in discussing the work I posted or if you think its great advice to let your tank self invade and then try and undo that.

I can't get anyone to respond to that direct request, repeatedly.

at any time, you both have the ability to help the thread get back on track. It would be ideal if anyone would just post a thread they've logged some work on and we can compare notes...so far, its pretty one sided work examples to see.

People who allowed uglies phasing posted for pages they regretted it, so my first post led with that and the battle began.

it was recommended that new keepers should not let their tanks become overrun with algae and new invasions...that seems to have garnered a bunch of backlash but I posted works showing how that opinion was earned. can I get something similar pls/or just move on from the topic if no work alternatives can be shown.

 

[MnFish1]

I don't mind if he keeps reposting the same distractions, its not really helping the topic here and MN was already clear where I stand, he's challenged me on the same issue about 10 times last year alone. Im not sure how focusing on my type wording is helping the thread direction, unless you are interested in discussing the work I posted or if you think its great advice to let your tank self invade and then try and undo that.

I can't get anyone to respond to that direct request, repeatedly.

at any time, you both have the ability to help the thread get back on track. It would be ideal if anyone would just post a thread they've logged some work on and we can compare notes...so far, its pretty one sided work examples to see.

People who allowed uglies phasing posted for pages they regretted it, so my first post led with that and the battle began.

Except - I didnt challenge you - except your language and words that the average person might not understand - in fact - someone else mentioned it as well. I said - it was wrong for someone to say something you said was appropriate in the 'worst advice ever'.....

 

[brandon429]

Ok I'll watch the thread and let this stand:

you have one work thread example so far, for my claim. Ill be watching even for single examples now, no multi page ones required, to show how someone else handled invasion requests using different means.

From that post I can understand why they would recommend someone allow the uglies phase to literally take over from the start, and without the post, Ill know its just groupthink / recycled poor info to keep telling new aquarists to allow takeovers that we sometimes cannot correct.

Im in the hobby business of saving tanks / clearly some time is spent on the endeavor...Ive learned that saving them before the invasion is preferable. Im literally watching people grip and hold onto the notion of purposeful uglies phasing regardless of the work shown + I stay busy in my messages working personal tank fixes as well, there is a growing segment of aquarists who do not want to buy in to the uglies phase requisite and they want to pool ideas on how to always enjoy their investments.

Right now in private message Im working with a case of uglies going on 25 months straight, no enjoyment of the tank at all. You have no idea how much loss and damage and reputation issues for the hobby that purposeful uglies phasing has caused, its archaic and Ill make sure to usher out of the hobby if at all possible/ in time.

 

[MnFish1]

Ok I watch the thread and let this stand

you have one work thread example so far for my claim. Ill be watching even for single examples now, no multi page ones required. we can communicate solely via links, that ought to help this back n forth~

I will PM you with my example - because - this thread is 'the worst advice ever' its not debate how to get rid of algae....

 

[Mariette]

Algae overgrowth in freshwater aquarium. Add in a clownfish. I can’t even

Edit: after a bit of digging, this person (who presented as knowledgeable) said the advise was based on his friend’s tank. His friend it turns out had a biocube full of gorgeous corals and a pair of clowns. The cube had no algae. Therefore, clownfish must keep algae in check. I was just baffled.

 

[dantimdad]

Algae overgrowth in freshwater aquarium. Add in a clownfish. I can’t even

Edit: after a bit of digging, this person (who presented as knowledgeable) said the advise was based on his friend’s tank. His friend it turns out had a biocube full of gorgeous corals and a pair of clowns. The cube had no algae. Therefore, clownfish must keep algae in check. I was just baffled.

That seems perfectly logical to me! :confused::confused::confused: