Tilefish ich or sand?

[christinna77]

You indicated that you took the Video just after a FW dip. If I had to guess the aftereffects/stress of the Dip caused that behavior. I agree with Jay that the copper is not the problem and lowering it has reset the clock for ich eradication. I would also consider a UV System for you DT if you don't already have one.

Oh sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. The tilefish was showing the same signs before the fw dip already, and I saw no change after (when I took the video).

The copper wasn't lowered after all, I decided to keep it up.

UV is already on the way actually, yes! Although I'm trying to properly eradicate it by going fallow.

Newest update: The tilefish looks better now, and isn't gasping at the surface anymore, although I can still see it's breathing a bit fast.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thanks! It's a mystery. I feel like I'm doing everything right, yet it's giving me such a hard time. I've decided to not get any more fish from that LFS. The only two I've got was the butterfly and the tilefish, and both turned out to be very sick. Another local reefer also told me they don't really get fish from them since they're often in a bad shape.

And yes, I tested ammonia with Salifert too. It's possible it slammed into the top when I wasn't watching, but that's mostly mesh with a solid skeleton.

Another thing I can think of: I got some grindal worms yesterday and fed a few to the tank before it started breathing heavily. I didn't see it eat any - only the wrasse did, and they weren't a big hit overall. Could there have been something bad in their substrate perhaps? I got them from a FW fish keeper.

Anyway, I just woke up to check on it, expecting the worst, and found it in the cave resting. It finally calmed down around 5 am. It doesn't look like it's breathing as hard anymore, but I'll have to confirm again in a few hours since it's hard to see and I don't want to stress it further.

Sorry, I've never fed grindel worms to marine fish before. there shouldn't be any real issue though....

Scott Michel's "Basslets, Dottybacks and Hamlets" book has a good dozen pages or so on the various types of tilefish and their husbandry. I wouldn't buy the book solely for that section, but he does have a lot of insight with these - he says this species is pretty delicate and does best in pairs.

 

[christinna77]

Sorry, I've never fed grindel worms to marine fish before. there shouldn't be any real issue though....

Scott Michel's "Basslets, Dottybacks and Hamlets" book has a good dozen pages or so on the various types of tilefish and their husbandry. I wouldn't buy the book solely for that section, but he does have a lot of insight with these - he says this species is pretty delicate and does best in pairs.

Thank you, I'll check it out! I do plan on getting another tilefish actually, so they can hopefully pair up and keep each other company.

So it's 8 pm now, and the tilefish is breathing harder than it was during the day again. I'm wondering if its gills were damaged, maybe from ich or flukes, and if it has a harder time at night when oxygen levels dip? I don't know what else to do to help it though, there's already a cascade waterfall in the AIO chamber, two airstones set to max (one in the AIO chamber, one in the tank), and the return pump nozzle is aimed all the way at the surface with plenty of agitation. pH is still around 7.9. Wrasse is still acting normal.

 

[W31Olds]

What is your Salinity? You may want to investigate lowering it some to increase O2 in the water and I would look into the O2 dropping at night. I don't see that happening in a sterile QT Tank. Your Tilefish is probably breathing hard because of an active Pathogen. The Dip should have improved him for a while so the copper can work but it does take a while.

 

[christinna77]

What is your Salinity? You may want to investigate lowering it some to increase O2 in the water and I would look into the O2 dropping at night. I don't see that happening in a sterile QT Tank. Your Tilefish is probably breathing hard because of an active Pathogen. The Dip should have improved him for a while so the copper can work but it does take a while.

Thanks. Salinity is at 34.5 ppt. I already try to keep the temperature at around 77-78, but I suppose I could try going down to 30-32 ppt salinity as well.

 

[Charles2465]

What is your Salinity? You may want to investigate lowering it some to increase O2 in the water and I would look into the O2 dropping at night. I don't see that happening in a sterile QT Tank. Your Tilefish is probably breathing hard because of an active Pathogen. The Dip should have improved him for a while so the copper can work but it does take a while.

Thanks. Salinity is at 34.5 ppt. I already try to keep the temperature at around 77-78, but I suppose I could try going down to 30-32 ppt salinity as well.

Hi Christina. not sure if it would be a factor to take into consideration, but I did go a bit over the reccomend copper amount for my fish once because the velvet was so stubborn. This ended up effecting my Mccoskers flasher wrasse and Angel fish since they are more sensitive. They displayed symptoms of hyperventilating and hiding. If it was worse it was as if the wrasse was trying to spit something out his mouth. Moved him to another tank that was void of copper and he was fine later on. I think you should have plenty enough O2 being put in the water. Perhaps he is being effected by a pathogen. Generally in my experience a fish would not hide if it needs more oxygen, but it would gasp at the surface of the water. Whats he looking like now?

 

[christinna77]

Hi Christina. not sure if it would be a factor to take into consideration, but I did go a bit over the reccomend copper amount for my fish once because the velvet was so stubborn. This ended up effecting my Mccoskers flasher wrasse and Angel fish since they are more sensitive. They displayed symptoms of hyperventilating and hiding. If it was worse it was as if the wrasse was trying to spit something out his mouth. Moved him to another tank that was void of copper and he was fine later on. I think you should have plenty enough O2 being put in the water. Perhaps he is being effected by a pathogen. Generally in my experience a fish would not hide if it needs more oxygen, but it would gasp at the surface of the water. Whats he looking like now?

Hi Charles, thanks for the input! I was worried yesterday I'd gone over, but it was at 2.18 - I double tested it with Hanna. The wrasse had no reaction, which I'd expect since it's usually more sensitive than the tilefish, especially given the tilefish already went through copper before and was totally fine.

He's looking way better so far! I turned off the tank light earlier today to help calm him, and just left the room lamp on for ambient light, and so far so good. He's swimming at the front glass begging for attention and looking for food in the sand, the usual behavior. I still see him breathing a bit faster than normal, but it's a huge improvement from yesterday.

He seems pretty sensitive to light changes and sudden movements at night, so I'm being extra mindful. Fingers crossed it's only uphill from here - I love this fish so much already only after having him for a short time, and really want him healthy and happy.

 

[Charles2465]

Hi Christina. not sure if it would be a factor to take into consideration, but I did go a bit over the reccomend copper amount for my fish once because the velvet was so stubborn. This ended up effecting my Mccoskers flasher wrasse and Angel fish since they are more sensitive. They displayed symptoms of hyperventilating and hiding. If it was worse it was as if the wrasse was trying to spit something out his mouth. Moved him to another tank that was void of copper and he was fine later on. I think you should have plenty enough O2 being put in the water. Perhaps he is being effected by a pathogen. Generally in my experience a fish would not hide if it needs more oxygen, but it would gasp at the surface of the water. Whats he looking like now?

Hi Charles, thanks for the input! I was worried yesterday I'd gone over, but it was at 2.18 - I double tested it with Hanna. The wrasse had no reaction, which I'd expect since it's usually more sensitive than the tilefish, especially given the tilefish already went through copper before and was totally fine.

He's looking way better so far! I turned off the tank light earlier today to help calm him, and just left the room lamp on for ambient light, and so far so good. He's swimming at the front glass begging for attention and looking for food in the sand, the usual behavior. I still see him breathing a bit faster than normal, but it's a huge improvement from yesterday.

He seems pretty sensitive to light changes and sudden movements at night, so I'm being extra mindful. Fingers crossed it's only uphill from here - I love this fish so much already only after having him for a short time, and really want him healthy and happy.

Glad to hear your fishy is doing better
His breathing doesn't seem too bad, just keep an eye on him and watch if it looks like he is yawning too much or trying to spit something out a lot. I know you are pretty thorough so I'm sure he will be fine. I myself am having to deal with some velvet that doesn't seem to want to go away and having a fine eye is crucial. Angel fish is the one that keeps getting it and then spreading it :/. I'm just gonna keep up with the copper treatment and try feed some garlic soaked pellets along with Seachem Vitality.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thank you, I'll check it out! I do plan on getting another tilefish actually, so they can hopefully pair up and keep each other company.

So it's 8 pm now, and the tilefish is breathing harder than it was during the day again. I'm wondering if its gills were damaged, maybe from ich or flukes, and if it has a harder time at night when oxygen levels dip? I don't know what else to do to help it though, there's already a cascade waterfall in the AIO chamber, two airstones set to max (one in the AIO chamber, one in the tank), and the return pump nozzle is aimed all the way at the surface with plenty of agitation. pH is still around 7.9. Wrasse is still acting normal.

There shouldn’t be too much of an oxygen dip with good aeration, but it is odd that the fish is breathing faster at night, generally the reverse is true.

Ich doesn’t focus on the gills, and for it to be ich, there would need to have 100’s of spots.

Gill flukes, and the damage they leave when they drop off is more likely.

 

[christinna77]

Just wanted to post a small update: The tilefish has been doing great so far! But my Tamarin wrasse that was housed in the same QT tank unexpectedly died today. No idea why - it's been in 2.2-2.3 copper with the tilefish for more than 2 weeks now (3 weeks total in copper), was eating, active, and showed no signs of illness whatsoever. Water parameters have been also kept stable. It was following the tilefish around like a puppy, and I never noticed any aggression between them. Just stumped on this one.

Here's the post: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tamarin-wrasse-dead-out-of-nowhere.1124646/#post-13803722

 

[christinna77]

Update: We're almost there—just one more week left in the fallow period for my DT, running at 81+ degrees (6 weeks total). The fish have been in 2.2–2.4 ppm copper this whole time, eating well with no signs of problems.

Well… until today. Both the tilefish and the blue assessor in the same QT are showing a very reduced appetite. No other symptoms—breathing is normal and they’re still swimming around—just not eating much. The tilefish took one bite and went back to its cave. I’m making a new batch of my frozen mix just in case, though I only ever keep it in the fridge for 2–3 days max. Water parameters haven’t changed, just the temperature climbed 1–2 degrees to about 79–80°F. It's back to 78°F now, though. I’m also going to do a WC just in case (last one was Sunday).

I’m wondering if prolonged copper exposure could be affecting them, and whether I should start lowering it. It’s been a full 5 weeks at copper now, and I was planning to wait until I transfer them back to DT, but maybe that’s not the best approach.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Update: We're almost there—just one more week left in the fallow period for my DT, running at 81+ degrees (6 weeks total). The fish have been in 2.2–2.4 ppm copper this whole time, eating well with no signs of problems.

Well… until today. Both the tilefish and the blue assessor in the same QT are showing a very reduced appetite. No other symptoms—breathing is normal and they’re still swimming around—just not eating much. The tilefish took one bite and went back to its cave. I’m making a new batch of my frozen mix just in case, though I only ever keep it in the fridge for 2–3 days max. Water parameters haven’t changed, just the temperature climbed 1–2 degrees to about 79–80°F. It's back to 78°F now, though. I’m also going to do a WC just in case (last one was Sunday).

I’m wondering if prolonged copper exposure could be affecting them, and whether I should start lowering it. It’s been a full 5 weeks at copper now, and I was planning to wait until I transfer them back to DT, but maybe that’s not the best approach.

I’d start water changes to reduce the copper to 1 ppm.

30 days copper is best. I’ve kept fish in copper for up to 4 months, but not tried that specifically with tilefish or assesors.

 

[christinna77]

Update: We're almost there—just one more week left in the fallow period for my DT, running at 81+ degrees (6 weeks total). The fish have been in 2.2–2.4 ppm copper this whole time, eating well with no signs of problems.

Well… until today. Both the tilefish and the blue assessor in the same QT are showing a very reduced appetite. No other symptoms—breathing is normal and they’re still swimming around—just not eating much. The tilefish took one bite and went back to its cave. I’m making a new batch of my frozen mix just in case, though I only ever keep it in the fridge for 2–3 days max. Water parameters haven’t changed, just the temperature climbed 1–2 degrees to about 79–80°F. It's back to 78°F now, though. I’m also going to do a WC just in case (last one was Sunday).

I’m wondering if prolonged copper exposure could be affecting them, and whether I should start lowering it. It’s been a full 5 weeks at copper now, and I was planning to wait until I transfer them back to DT, but maybe that’s not the best approach.

I’d start water changes to reduce the copper to 1 ppm.

30 days copper is best. I’ve kept fish in copper for up to 4 months, but not tried that specifically with tilefish or assesors.

Thank you, Jay, I'll do just that. I just fed with a freshly mixed batch and saw them eat 1-2 pieces before ignoring the food again, so I really think it might be the copper.

 

[christinna77]

Just wanted to share a quick update — both fish started eating and acting normal the next day after I lowered the copper, which is now holding at around 1.5–1.6 ppm. The DT’s 45 day fallow period ends on Friday, so I’ll be transferring them over the weekend.

On a side note, I was worried about my corals since I raised the temp to 82°F for the past 6 weeks. The first week some looked pretty angry, especially my torches that completely closed up, but they bounced back — and I think they actually love the warmer temps!

And as an added benefit, my nuisance algae disappeared. The rocks and sand were completely clear within a week of upping the temperature (I didn't change the light schedule and I still feed a lot to keep nitrates and phosphates up, so it must've been the temperature). I think it might have been dinos or something — not sure, but I read that raising the temp can sometimes help. Just dealing with a bit of bubble algae here and there now.

 

[christinna77]

Update: It’s been almost a week since I transferred the tilefish back into the DT, and so far so good! I find it really interesting how much a fish’s personality can change depending on the tank size and scape.

@Jay Hemdal Thank you and others for following along—I can’t say how much I appreciate all your input and advice. It’s been a total lifesaver, and I’ve learned so much from all the posts here on R2R too.

By the way, do you have any recommendations on how long it typically takes to know if the fallow period was successful? Is two weeks enough?

Here's Sushi begging for food :)

 

[winxp_man]

Update: It’s been almost a week since I transferred the tilefish back into the DT, and so far so good! I find it really interesting how much a fish’s personality can change depending on the tank size and scape.

@Jay Hemdal Thank you and others for following along—I can’t say how much I appreciate all your input and advice. It’s been a total lifesaver, and I’ve learned so much from all the posts here on R2R too.

By the way, do you have any recommendations on how long it typically takes to know if the fallow period was successful? Is two weeks enough?

Here's Sushi begging for food :)

Two-three weeks. Have seen fish in my QT clean for two and a half weeks only to spot ich about 2.5 weeks into QT. Made a post here how it’s 30 days min for copper for QT on my end period. Jay and the other medics here can’t stress that enough. Yes I see posts all over FB and other places taking about two weeks! Miss with that! Give it a full 30 min in 2.25 min copper power and then we can say ich should be gone.

 

[christinna77]

Update: It’s been almost a week since I transferred the tilefish back into the DT, and so far so good! I find it really interesting how much a fish’s personality can change depending on the tank size and scape.

@Jay Hemdal Thank you and others for following along—I can’t say how much I appreciate all your input and advice. It’s been a total lifesaver, and I’ve learned so much from all the posts here on R2R too.

By the way, do you have any recommendations on how long it typically takes to know if the fallow period was successful? Is two weeks enough?

Here's Sushi begging for food :)

Two-three weeks. Have seen fish in my QT clean for two and a half weeks only to spot ich about 2.5 weeks into QT. Made a post here how it’s 30 days min for copper for QT on my end period. Jay and the other medics here can’t stress that enough. Yes I see posts all over FB and other places taking about two weeks! Miss with that! Give it a full 30 min in 2.25 min copper power and then we can say ich should be gone.

Absolute agree! The tilefish was for like 40 days in therapeutic copper checked daily, so I'm fairly positive there's no ich in my QT. I was more curious about the DT that I left fallow (47 days at 81+ degrees as Jay recommends), and how soon I'd notice any signs of ich if there was still some remaining in the DT :)

 

[winxp_man]

Absolute agree! The tilefish was for like 40 days in therapeutic copper checked daily, so I'm fairly positive there's no ich in my QT. I was more curious about the DT that I left fallow (47 days at 81+ degrees as Jay recommends), and how soon I'd notice any signs of ich if there was still some remaining in the DT :)

Fallow is between 45-76…. Had velvet breakout beginning of the year. Then ich in July… I now QT everything and it’s mum!

And running the tank fallow for 80 days don’t want to chance it on anything any longer.

But yes between two and three weeks you would be spotting something. Does the file stay near the bottom at night?

As for me 81 not much of an option with corals in the DT, and lots of nems. Hard part is juggling the QT and the DT with nutrients and parameter steadiness by ghost feeding.

 

[christinna77]

Fallow is between 45-76…. Had velvet breakout beginning of the year. Then ich in July… I now QT everything and it’s mum!

And running the tank fallow for 80 days don’t want to chance it on anything any longer.

But yes between two and three weeks you would be spotting something. Does the file stay near the bottom at night?

As for me 81 not much of an option with corals in the DT, and lots of nems. Hard part is juggling the QT and the DT with nutrients and parameter steadiness by ghost feeding.

That really sucks, man, sorry! I’ve had my share of bad luck too. I QT’d everything from the start, and still ended up with a butterfly having an untreatable fungal disease, flukes, ich, you name it, all in a single batch from the same LFS. Later I heard from other local reefers they avoid buying fish there. Wish I knew earlier, lol. Even with strict QT, I still somehow got ich in my DT. Could’ve been from trading corals with other reefers, or maybe cross contamination with my QT when it had an active outbreak (even though I've got two sets of tools, hoses, etc., for everything). Who knows.

Ghost feeding the DT was brutal during fallow. My nutrients were all over the place for the first few weeks, so I ordered NeoPhos and NeoNitro. Of course they stabilized right after so I never actually ended up using it, lol.

I don’t keep anemones or SPS, but my LPS handled the higher temps fine. My torches and mushrooms were a bit angry the first week, but bounced back. No invert losses either.

Honestly, I was ready to sacrifice every coral if I had to, because keeping my tilefish in QT any longer would’ve killed him. He hated it - breathing heavy, freaking out every night trying to jump out. I lost so much sleep over it, expecting him to be gone by morning several times. At one point he stopped reacting to me completely, and just stared at the same corner in the QT all day long (while still eating). It legit looked like depression, even though I know fish can't really be 'depressed'. He only perked up once I moved him back to the DT - now he’s curious again, begging for food, letting me pet him, happy to see me every time. Complete 180.

And yep - he’s actively scanning the sandbed at night, hunting nonstop lol. Then at sunrise, he's back to his cave to rest up.

 

[winxp_man]

Anything saltwater touches can be contaminated. So I don’t run anything without QT, into my DT.